Wear of CG Aux ribbons on CAP uniform

cnitas · November 20, 2007, 03:37:08 PM

Quote from: ddelaney103 on November 20, 2007, 04:42:08 AM
We had a similar situation in MD. Some S/M's were awarded the Maryland Commendation Medal by TAG. State military medals, however, are not authorized for the CAP uniform. They can mount them in a shadowbox and add it to the "I love me" wall, but they can't wear it.

Well, as I saw at the Wing conference, some wear it anyway...

ddelaney103 · November 20, 2007, 05:30:09 PM

Quote from: cnitas on November 20, 2007, 03:37:08 PM
Quote from: ddelaney103 on November 20, 2007, 04:42:08 AM
We had a similar situation in MD. Some S/M's were awarded the Maryland Commendation Medal by TAG. State military medals, however, are not authorized for the CAP uniform. They can mount them in a shadowbox and add it to the "I love me" wall, but they can't wear it.

Well, as I saw at the Wing conference, some wear it anyway...

There's always a few...

MIKE · November 20, 2007, 05:42:25 PM

IMO, a CGPUC or other CG unit award is a lot different than an IT or VE program or Sustained Service Award. Plus CAP awards are prohibitted by the AUXMAN.

RiverAux · November 20, 2007, 11:05:56 PM

And I agree with you on that, but its always fun to find these little technicalities.

SAR-EMT1 · November 20, 2007, 11:43:13 PM

So has anyone routinely seen the CGPUC on the CAP uniform?

sandman · November 20, 2007, 11:45:30 PM

Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on November 20, 2007, 11:43:13 PM
So has anyone routinely seen the CGPUC on the CAP uniform?

I wear the CGPUC on my CAP uniform and my Navy uniform!

RiverAux · November 21, 2007, 03:05:21 AM

They were just handed out recently and there probably are not a ton of dual CAP-CGAux members out there who would be eligible to wear it in the first place.

MIKE · November 21, 2007, 04:05:08 AM

I saw one on a set of trops tonight... Unfortunately they weren't my trops.

Dragoon · November 21, 2007, 01:20:29 PM

If we're gonna wear USAF uniforms, it would make sense to follow USAF wear policies as closely as possible (and to mirror those policies in our CAP-specific suits)

In for a penny, in for a pound.

That said, I can think of one exception I'd like see carved out - allowing members to wear earned NG ribbons from their Wing's state only. After all, CAP may be "Federal." but we'd like close connections with our local TAG. By allowing our dual hatted members to wear both CAP and local state NG awards , we reinforce that link.

But really, beyond that, it starts to get silly. First it's CGAUX awards, then it's SDFs, then it's police/fire dept ribbons....next thing you know we've got folks wanting to wear their Army Staff Badge, or their Sheriff's deputy badge or their state police marksmanship badges - after all, they've earned them.

We gotta draw the line somewhere. "Wear what the federal USAF wears" seems like as good a plan as any. Simple, no confusion.

Hawk200 · November 27, 2007, 04:38:04 AM

Quote from: Dragoon on November 21, 2007, 01:20:29 PM
That said, I can think of one exception I'd like see carved out - allowing members to wear earned NG ribbons from their Wing's state only. After all, CAP may be "Federal." but we'd like close connections with our local TAG. By allowing our dual hatted members to wear both CAP and local state NG awards , we reinforce that link.

I wouldn't restrict to just the Wing's state only. I have an State NG ribbon from a different state than I'm in, and it's the only one I have. It would be a little unfair for an NG member in my state to be able to wear one if I couldn't, especially if both the decs have similar award criteria.

Also, some states don't even award the active components medals when there is a state equivalent, and the member concerned is earning for time other than active duty periods. And some state awards boards are more streamlined with their own decs.

What I could get on board with is allowing only a certain amount, such as limiting to three or so from any state. Wouldn't be hard to prove, it's on NGB 22's. That way everyone has the same restriction, regardless of where they got them from. Just make sure a copy of the NGB 22 is in the members 201.

Dragoon · November 28, 2007, 04:09:10 PM

Quote from: Hawk200 on November 27, 2007, 04:38:04 AM
Quote from: Dragoon on November 21, 2007, 01:20:29 PM
That said, I can think of one exception I'd like see carved out - allowing members to wear earned NG ribbons from their Wing's state only. After all, CAP may be "Federal." but we'd like close connections with our local TAG. By allowing our dual hatted members to wear both CAP and local state NG awards , we reinforce that link.

I wouldn't restrict to just the Wing's state only. I have an State NG ribbon from a different state than I'm in, and it's the only one I have. It would be a little unfair for an NG member in my state to be able to wear one if I couldn't, especially if both the decs have similar award criteria.

Also, some states don't even award the active components medals when there is a state equivalent, and the member concerned is earning for time other than active duty periods. And some state awards boards are more streamlined with their own decs.

What I could get on board with is allowing only a certain amount, such as limiting to three or so from any state. Wouldn't be hard to prove, it's on NGB 22's. That way everyone has the same restriction, regardless of where they got them from. Just make sure a copy of the NGB 22 is in the members 201.

I understand your positioin, but we're coming at it from different angles. The only reason I'd advocate the exception for the resident state NG is to foster better relations with the local guard. Your out of state NG ribbon wouldn't help much with that goal. (But it raises a good question - if I transfer from say the MD Guard to the IL Guard, can I keep wearing my MD Guard ribbons? If that's true nationwide, you've got a better point.)

The general problem with "I've earned it, I want to wear it" is that it also applies to CG Aux, State Guards, Sheriff's Departments, etc. etc. There's simply no end to ribbons (and badges) that folks have earned somewhere else. You have to draw the line somewhere. The current line says "same as federal USAF." A slight compromise line would be "Same as the Air Guard of the State you're located in."

Dragoon · November 29, 2007, 02:48:59 PM

Revision - as far as I can tell, USAF regs allow Guardsman to wear all state ribbons when not on federal duty, regardless of the state issuing the ribbon vs. the state they are currently assigned to.

Based on that, I'm in agreement - USAF should allow CAP to wear all NG awards. After all, we are truly more like guardsman than active folks anyway.

MIKE · November 29, 2007, 04:27:52 PM

I disagree, as I think the "XX Wing of Civil Air Patrol" separatist attitude is bad for the organization as a whole.

Dragoon · November 29, 2007, 05:59:04 PM

Yeah but...

I'm a strong fan of centralized command, and standardization amongst units.

But it's a fact that much of what we do is governed by our relationship with state and local governments.

How much money they give the Wing.

How much support we get from the State Adjutant General

What local facilities we're allowed to use.

What missions we perform are determined not by National, but by state memorandums of agreement.

So....the fact of life is that we are very state-centric and likely to remain that way. At least until a whole bunch of laws and regs are changed, and someone comes up a lot more Federal money.

We are a lot like the Guard. One foot in federal-land, but the other foot firmly in our home state.

But the Guard is not entirely separatist. They operation under National USAF standards. They get inspected by federal USAF guys. They wear their uniforms the same way, etc. etc. I think we can follow that model.

(Yeah, I know is MAJOR topic drift. Sorry)

pixelwonk · November 29, 2007, 07:27:39 PM

Un-drift it then. Now's good.

arajca · November 29, 2007, 08:06:28 PM

* YANK * back to topic...

Would the CG Aux ribbons be considered US gov't non-military awards?

ddelaney103 · November 30, 2007, 03:41:31 AM

Quote from: arajca on November 29, 2007, 08:06:28 PM
* YANK * back to topic...

Would the CG Aux ribbons be considered US gov't non-military awards?

Maybe.

I could see allowing it's wear if the person earned it while in CAP service, i.e. if the award was given to Major Bagadonuts, CAP instead of Flotilla Commander Bagadonuts, CGAUX, who also happens to be in CAP. That's the way the AF does it.

RiverAux · December 07, 2007, 01:38:47 AM

One thing that might help settle whether or not CG Auxiliary-specific awards (such as Auxiliary Commendation Medal) are "military awards" and as such would be eligible for wear on CAP uniforms is the fact that the CG Auxiliary Manual (which is an official CG regulation) has three different sections in the Chapter on awards:
Section A. Auxiliary Awards
Section B. Applicable Coast Guard Awards
Section C. Applicable Non-Military Awards

So, by having a separate section for "Non-Military Awards", the CG is implying that the other two sections are Miliary awards, which neatly addresses the issue of CAP's regulations.

What are the "Non-Military Awards"? Secretary of Transportation's Outstanding Unit Award and the Department of Transportation's 9-11 Medal and Ribbon, DoT Guardian Medal, Gold or Silver Lifesaving Medals, Coast Guard Public Service Awards (that apparently usually go towards non-CG associated civilians, CG Foundation Award of the Year, and the Assoc. for Rescue at Sea Silver Medal Award.