Wear of CG Aux ribbons on CAP uniform

[RiverAux]

While reading the recent threads on SDF decorations and whether or not they could be worn on a CAP uniform, I had an interesting thought:

CAPM 39-1 says this:

5-4. Military Service Awards. Military service ribbons may be worn on the CAP AF-style uniform provided they were awarded in writing by competent military authority. Awards of the Air Force, Army, Navy, Marine Corps, or Coast Guard will be worn in the order prescribed by the awarding service, subject to the following: In all cases of relative priority, Air Force awards will take precedence. See Table 5-3. Awards for wars, campaigns, expeditions etc., will be worn in chronological sequence.

I think most people would agree that this would allow CAP members who earned CG awards while serving as a member of the CG Aux to wear those CG ribbons.  However, if one were so inclined you interpret this as also allowing the wear of ribbons specific to the CG Auxiliary provided that they were awarded by a CG officer.  The thing that most CAP members wouldn't realize is that almost all CG Aux ribbons are approved by CG officers of one type or another.  Usually it is the CG equivalent of the CAP State Director's employed by the AF but it can also be by commanders of various CG units that the Aux might be supporting. 

Now, you could argue that this clause is for Military Service ribbons and since the CG Aux is not a military organization then ribbons specific to the CG Auxiliary are not Military Service Ribbons even though they can only be awarded by the military. 

However, you could counter-argue that while the CG Aux is not a military organization, CG Aux ribbons are authorized and approved only by military regulation (FYI, CG Aux regulations are all "real" CG regulations approved by the Commandant -- in other words, the CG Aux doesn't write its own regulations like CAP does) so therefore they are Military Service Ribbons that just happen to only be awarded for service in the CG Auxiliary.

As I don't wear any ribbons from either CAP or CG Aux (though I've earned many of both), it doesn't matter to me personally.  However, if I were to get my CAP ribbon rack in shape, despite my argument above I would probably just include my CG ribbons and leave off the CG Aux ribbons --- mostly to just avoid the appearance of being a ribbon hog. 

Just thought that an interesting argument could be made on the issue.   

[MIKE]

The other relevent cite:

SECTION A 3. b. Decorations, ribbons, and badges authorized for
wear on the US Air Force uniform may be worn on the
CAP uniform when earned through qualification and
awarded by competent authority to a member for service
performed in any branch of the Armed Forces of the
United States or its allies. (Foreign decorations, ribbons,
badges, etc., awarded in writing to a member not in the
Armed Forces of the United States may also be worn if
approved by National Headquarters.) Aeronautical
badges, emblems, insignia, ribbons, etc., given by a
foreign government, or agency, as souvenirs or emblems
of friendship do not qualify as earned awards and will not
be worn on the CAP uniform. All cases where doubt
exists as to the propriety of a badge, medal or other
device being worn will be referred to National
Headquarters for decision.

See also: COMDTINST M16790.1F Chapter 11 Section B.

[ddelaney103]

While they may be awards awarded by "competent military authority," they are not military awards.

They're not alone.  When I left Army Civilian service, I was awarded the Army's Achievement Medal for Civilian Service.  This is an Army award given by an Army Colonel, but I can't wear it in the Guard or CAP because it is not a military award.

So, CG awards? OK. CGAUX awards? Sorry.

[MIKE]

For the record.  I think legitimate USCG awards awarded to Auxiliarists should be authorized since someone who is also the military can wear these awards earned as an Auxie if they get the appropriate paperwork associated with the award.  The relevant awards can be found at the above link... with the exception of the CGPUC which is now also authorized.

[RiverAux]

As we've noted before in other discussions there is a conflict between 39-1 and 39-3 but since 39-1 claims to be the sole authority in regards to what can be worn on a uniform, I take it at its word and assume that 39-3 will be brought into line with it at some point in the future. 

[davedove]

While they may be awards awarded by "competent military authority," they are not military awards.

They're not alone.  When I left Army Civilian service, I was awarded the Army's Achievement Medal for Civilian Service.  This is an Army award given by an Army Colonel, but I can't wear it in the Guard or CAP because it is not a military award.

So, CG awards? OK. CGAUX awards? Sorry.

Interestingly enough, you can wear them on the Army uniform.  From AR 670-1:

c. U.S. non-military decorations. U.S. non-military decorations authorized for wear on Army uniforms are listed below in their order of precedence. Personnel will wear other U.S. non-military (Federal agency) decorations based upon date of receipt. If more than one decoration is awarded by the same agency, the decorations are worn in the order of precedence, as established by the awarding agency. Personnel will not wear U.S. non-military decorations that duplicate recognition for service or an act for which a military decoration has already been awarded. Awards given by a jurisdiction inferior to the Federal Government are not authorized for wear on the Army uniform, except as specified in paragraph j, below.

One of the awards specifically listed is the Achievement Medal for Civilian Service.  In fact, since it doesn't specify a department, one could wear the civilian awards given from any department.  So, Air Force civilian awards could be worn on the Army uniform, but Army (or even Air Force) awards could not be worn on the AF uniform.

The Air Force only allows such medals if they were awarded for military service, which is ironic as if it were for military service, the person would probably get a military medal.

[John Bryan]

"Military Service Awards"....this leads to a follow up questions , what about the other "Uniformed Services".....could a NOAA or USPHS Officer wear ribbons or badges awarded by NOAA or PHS on their CAP uniform.

In addition to Military vs uniformed , what about the word service....I have a friend who is a nurse in the USPHS and they have ribbons for things like joining the Reserve Officers Assc and other non-service awards. In fact his bottom 3 ribbons on his PHS uniform are for belonging to different groups. For the record they do have some that need to be earned as well

[arajca]

Ladies and gentlemen, may I direct your attention to CAPM 39-1, Table 5-3, Box 42, which reads "42. United States Nonmilitary Decorations".

I would think ths USGC Aux awards would fall into that category, as well as any DoD civilian awards.

[John Bryan]

In reading the posts on the SDF and USCG Aux awards I am surprised by some of the lack of respect for those organizations awards and the organizations themselves. I mean yeah they are non military, volunteer, do gooder groups who are not in the real military and all.....but then again what are we...you'd think we would have a respect for other like minded people.

[mikeylikey]

In reading the posts on the SDF and USCG Aux awards I am surprised by some of the lack of respect for those organizations awards and the organizations themselves. I mean yeah they are non military, volunteer, do gooder groups who are not in the real military and all.....but then again what are we...you'd think we would have a respect for other like minded people.

Well said!

[arajca]

Not all sdf's recognize awards from other sdf's, so should CAP recognize them?

Don't forget the quality of the sdf programs differs between states as well, at for those states that have them. CA and TX appear to be at the highly professional end of the spectrum while some others are at the opposite end. Then there are the wannabe sdf's - those whose states laws provide for an sdf, but whose governors have not established one, CO for example. So a group decides to establish their own, but have NO legal recognition. Also, CAP does not allow the wear of state NG ribbons and awards, so why should it allow the wear of sdf ribbons and awards?

[ddelaney103]

While they may be awards awarded by "competent military authority," they are not military awards.

They're not alone.  When I left Army Civilian service, I was awarded the Army's Achievement Medal for Civilian Service.  This is an Army award given by an Army Colonel, but I can't wear it in the Guard or CAP because it is not a military award.

So, CG awards? OK. CGAUX awards? Sorry.

Interestingly enough, you can wear them on the Army uniform.  From AR 670-1:

c. U.S. non-military decorations. U.S. non-military decorations authorized for wear on Army uniforms are listed below in their order of precedence. Personnel will wear other U.S. non-military (Federal agency) decorations based upon date of receipt. If more than one decoration is awarded by the same agency, the decorations are worn in the order of precedence, as established by the awarding agency. Personnel will not wear U.S. non-military decorations that duplicate recognition for service or an act for which a military decoration has already been awarded. Awards given by a jurisdiction inferior to the Federal Government are not authorized for wear on the Army uniform, except as specified in paragraph j, below.

One of the awards specifically listed is the Achievement Medal for Civilian Service.  In fact, since it doesn't specify a department, one could wear the civilian awards given from any department.  So, Air Force civilian awards could be worn on the Army uniform, but Army (or even Air Force) awards could not be worn on the AF uniform.

The Air Force only allows such medals if they were awarded for military service, which is ironic as if it were for military service, the person would probably get a military medal.

This rule is to cover org's that an Airman might be posted that give their own awards.  Two examples are the CIA and NASA.

[CAPOfficer]

This discussion seems to have two parts; (1) United States Coast Guard awards presented to members of their auxiliary while in performance of their duties and (2) United States Coast Guard Auxiliary awards, presented to their members in accordance with their directives.

According to CAP Manual 39-1, Para. 5-4. Military Service Awards.  Military service ribbons may be worn on the CAP AF-style uniform provided they were awarded in writing by competent military authority.  Awards of the Air Force, Army, Navy, Marine Corps, or Coast Guard will be worn in the order prescribed by the awarding service, subject to the following: In all cases of relative priority, Air Force awards will take precedence.  See Table 5-3. Awards for wars, campaigns, expeditions etc., will be worn in chronological sequence.

Understanding when the U.S. Coast Guard presents their decorations to members of their auxiliary, they issue them via written Coast Guard documentation/certificates; therefore, the requirement given in CAPM 39-1 has been met, e.g. military authority, in writing.  No where does it suggest the award must be earned as a U.S. Coast Guard member in difference to a member of their auxiliary.

Now when one of their members receive a Coast Guard Auxiliary award, those are not authorized to be worn on the CAP Uniform simply because it is not a U.S. Coast Guard award or presented in writing by a recognized entity of the Armed Forces.

Look at it this way, during WWII, a few Civil Air Patrol members were presented with Air Medals for their services/heroism for their individual efforts/actions taken on behalf of our country.  These military awards were presented to non-members of the armed forces.  According to some of those who have posted here, these members are "not" authorized to wear these awards simply because they were not serving in the armed forces when the awards were bestowed.

Another way of looking at it would be, what if these same members later became members of one branch or another of the armed forces; would they not be authorized to wear that air medal previously presented?  My answer would be "yes".

Therefore, to say a member who receives an honor from one branch of the armed forces cannot wear that honor in another branch (even if it was awarded while serving in an auxiliary), is totally incorrect.  Otherwise, you would also have to say that the air medals earned by our members in WWII were worthless in the eyes of our parent organization (armed forces) and thus of no more value than those honors received/presented today by other branches of the armed forces.

Here's one more, what about the Department of the Army Commander's Award for Public Service presented to seven of our members out in Iowa for their achievement between the state and Civil Air Patrol; do we allow them to wear their awards or because they are not members of the Army, they cannot?

My guess is they wear the award proudly.

[JayT]

Who cares if they wear them proudly or not? It's a matter of if they should. (By the way, I agree with you.)

I think a lot of people on this forum what to view CAP, USCGAux, the SDFs, etc etc etc, as..........how do I put this? A lot of people want to view these auxiliary and support services are their own, equal world. Sometimes, it gets pretty childish. CAP, the CGAux, and the SDFs are not the military. To me at least, wearing a CGAux ribbon on your CAP uniform and vice versa would be the same as a JROTC cadet wanting to wear an boyscout medal on his uniform. They all mean something to somebody, but you don't need to mix them. The SDFs are even worst. It appears many of them are three or so steps above being shot gun militas. If I remember correctly from an article I read about the New York Guard, it's little more then a headquarters with a few shell units designed to be filled by an influx of volunteers in the case of national emergency. So if they can't even figure out a usefull system accross the country, why should CAP recognize them?

I'm a nineteen year old Flight Officer. I was a cadet with over twenty ribbons a few months ago. I never actually wore all of my ribbons at one time. They just don't mean that much to me.

[RiverAux]

Now when one of their members receive a Coast Guard Auxiliary award, those are not authorized to be worn on the CAP Uniform simply because it is not a U.S. Coast Guard award or presented in writing by a recognized entity of the Armed Forces.

Actually almost all CG Auxiliary ribbons are individually approved by a CG officer.  This fact is one of the reasons I brought the topic up in the first place.

[ddelaney103]

Here's one more, what about the Department of the Army Commander's Award for Public Service presented to seven of our members out in Iowa for their achievement between the state and Civil Air Patrol; do we allow them to wear their awards or because they are not members of the Army, they cannot?

My guess is they wear the award proudly.

I hope they wear their award proudly - just not in a CAP uniform.

These are the rules from "big blue" not CAP.  You will not wear a non-military award (and the ACA for PS is an award for civilians) unless it is earned for military duties.  Since CAP is not military for this purpose, you can't wear it.

We had a similar situation in MD.  Some S/M's were awarded the Maryland Commendation Medal by TAG.  State military medals, however, are not authorized for the CAP uniform.  They can mount them in a shadowbox and add it to the "I love me" wall, but they can't wear it.

Sorry.

[mikeylikey]

Here's one more, what about the Department of the Army Commander's Award for Public Service presented to seven of our members out in Iowa for their achievement between the state and Civil Air Patrol; do we allow them to wear their awards or because they are not members of the Army, they cannot?

My guess is they wear the award proudly.

I hope they wear their award proudly - just not in a CAP uniform.

These are the rules from "big blue" not CAP.  You will not wear a non-military award (and the ACA for PS is an award for civilians) unless it is earned for military duties.  Since CAP is not military for this purpose, you can't wear it.

We had a similar situation in MD.  Some S/M's were awarded the Maryland Commendation Medal by TAG.  State military medals, however, are not authorized for the CAP uniform.  They can mount them in a shadowbox and add it to the "I love me" wall, but they can't wear it.

Sorry.

That should change.  CAP members should be allowed to wear NG and State awards.  That is saying "your military service was not as good as that Active Duty Guy over there".

Who Cares I guess.

[RogueLeader]

The Actives are saying "Your State isn't as good as our Federal"  So what, send a proposal to change it.

[jb512]

The RM lets equal military wear their earned ribbons, so we should let equal auxiliaries wear ribbons.

USA - USAF - USN - USMC - USCG = wear ribbons earned

USAFAUX - USCGAUX = wear ribbons earned

Simple.

[SAR-EMT1]

The RM lets equal military wear their earned ribbons, so we should let equal auxiliaries wear ribbons.

USA - USAF - USN - USMC - USCG = wear ribbons earned

USAFAUX - USCGAUX = wear ribbons earned

Simple.

Except USAF-AUX UNIFORMS are controlled by the USAF (which says its cooler then us and cooler to the Nth degree then the USCG Aux) 

[cnitas]

We had a similar situation in MD.  Some S/M's were awarded the Maryland Commendation Medal by TAG.  State military medals, however, are not authorized for the CAP uniform.  They can mount them in a shadowbox and add it to the "I love me" wall, but they can't wear it.

Well, as I saw at the Wing conference, some wear it anyway...

[ddelaney103]

We had a similar situation in MD.  Some S/M's were awarded the Maryland Commendation Medal by TAG.  State military medals, however, are not authorized for the CAP uniform.  They can mount them in a shadowbox and add it to the "I love me" wall, but they can't wear it.

Well, as I saw at the Wing conference, some wear it anyway...

There's always a few...

[MIKE]

IMO, a CGPUC or other CG unit award is a lot different than an IT or VE program or Sustained Service Award.  Plus CAP awards are prohibitted by the AUXMAN.

[RiverAux]

And I agree with you on that, but its always fun to find these little technicalities. 

[SAR-EMT1]

So has anyone routinely seen the CGPUC on the CAP uniform?

[sandman]

So has anyone routinely seen the CGPUC on the CAP uniform?

I wear the CGPUC on my CAP uniform and my Navy uniform!

[RiverAux]

They were just handed out recently and there probably are not a ton of dual CAP-CGAux members out there who would be eligible to wear it in the first place. 

[MIKE]

I saw one on a set of trops tonight... Unfortunately they weren't my trops. 

[Dragoon]

If we're gonna wear USAF uniforms, it would make sense to follow USAF wear policies as closely as possible (and to mirror those policies in our CAP-specific suits)

In for a penny, in for a pound.



That said, I can think of one exception I'd like see carved out - allowing members to wear earned NG ribbons from their Wing's state only.  After all, CAP may be "Federal." but we'd like close connections with our local TAG.  By allowing our dual hatted members to wear both CAP and local state NG awards , we reinforce that link.

But really, beyond that, it starts to get silly.  First it's CGAUX awards, then it's SDFs, then it's police/fire dept ribbons....next thing you know we've got folks wanting to wear their Army Staff Badge, or their Sheriff's deputy badge or their state police marksmanship badges - after all, they've earned them.

We gotta draw the line somewhere.  "Wear what the federal USAF wears"  seems like as good a plan as any.  Simple, no confusion.

[Hawk200]

That said, I can think of one exception I'd like see carved out - allowing members to wear earned NG ribbons from their Wing's state only.  After all, CAP may be "Federal." but we'd like close connections with our local TAG.  By allowing our dual hatted members to wear both CAP and local state NG awards , we reinforce that link.

I wouldn't restrict to just the Wing's state only. I have an State NG ribbon from a different state than I'm in, and it's the only one I have. It would be a little unfair for an NG member in my state to be able to wear one if I couldn't, especially if both the decs have similar award criteria.

Also, some states don't even award the active components medals when there is a state equivalent, and the member concerned is earning for time other than active duty periods. And some state awards boards are more streamlined with their own decs.

What I could get on board with is allowing only a certain amount, such as limiting to three or so from any state. Wouldn't be hard to prove, it's on NGB 22's. That way everyone has the same restriction, regardless of where they got them from. Just make sure a copy of the NGB 22 is in the members 201.

[Dragoon]

That said, I can think of one exception I'd like see carved out - allowing members to wear earned NG ribbons from their Wing's state only.  After all, CAP may be "Federal." but we'd like close connections with our local TAG.  By allowing our dual hatted members to wear both CAP and local state NG awards , we reinforce that link.

I wouldn't restrict to just the Wing's state only. I have an State NG ribbon from a different state than I'm in, and it's the only one I have. It would be a little unfair for an NG member in my state to be able to wear one if I couldn't, especially if both the decs have similar award criteria.

Also, some states don't even award the active components medals when there is a state equivalent, and the member concerned is earning for time other than active duty periods. And some state awards boards are more streamlined with their own decs.

What I could get on board with is allowing only a certain amount, such as limiting to three or so from any state. Wouldn't be hard to prove, it's on NGB 22's. That way everyone has the same restriction, regardless of where they got them from. Just make sure a copy of the NGB 22 is in the members 201.

I understand your positioin, but we're coming at it from different angles.  The only reason I'd advocate the exception for the resident state NG is to foster better relations with the local guard.  Your out of state NG ribbon wouldn't help much with that goal.  (But it raises a good question - if I transfer from say the MD Guard to the IL Guard, can I keep wearing my MD Guard ribbons?  If that's true nationwide, you've got a better point.)

The general problem with "I've earned it, I want to wear it" is that it also applies to CG Aux, State Guards, Sheriff's Departments, etc. etc.  There's simply no end to ribbons (and badges) that folks have earned somewhere else.   You have to draw the line somewhere.  The current line says "same as federal USAF."  A slight compromise line would be "Same as the Air Guard of the State you're located in."

[Dragoon]

Revision - as far as I can tell, USAF regs allow Guardsman to wear all state ribbons when not on federal duty, regardless of the state issuing the ribbon vs. the state they are currently assigned to.

Based on that, I'm in agreement - USAF should allow CAP to wear all NG awards.  After all, we are truly more like guardsman than active folks anyway.

[MIKE]

I disagree, as I think the "XX Wing of Civil Air Patrol" separatist attitude is bad for the organization as a whole.

[Dragoon]

Yeah but...

I'm a strong fan of centralized command, and standardization amongst units.

But it's a fact that much of what we do is governed by our relationship with state and local governments.

How much money they give the Wing.

How much support we get from the State Adjutant General

What local facilities we're allowed to use.

What missions we perform are determined not by National, but by state memorandums of agreement.


So....the fact of life is that we are very state-centric and likely to remain that way.  At least until a whole bunch of laws and regs are changed, and someone comes up a lot more Federal money.

We are a lot like the Guard.  One foot in federal-land, but the other foot firmly in our home state. 

But the Guard is not entirely separatist.  They operation under National USAF standards.  They get inspected by federal USAF guys.  They wear their uniforms the same way, etc. etc.  I think we can follow that model.



(Yeah, I know is MAJOR topic drift. Sorry)

[pixelwonk]

Un-drift it then.  Now's good.

[arajca]

* YANK * back to topic...

Would the CG Aux ribbons be considered US gov't non-military awards?

[ddelaney103]

* YANK * back to topic...

Would the CG Aux ribbons be considered US gov't non-military awards?

Maybe.

I could see allowing it's wear if the person earned it while in CAP service, i.e. if the award was given to Major Bagadonuts, CAP instead of Flotilla Commander Bagadonuts, CGAUX, who also happens to be in CAP.  That's the way the AF does it.

[RiverAux]

One thing that might help settle whether or not CG Auxiliary-specific awards (such as Auxiliary Commendation Medal) are "military awards" and as such would be eligible for wear on CAP uniforms is the fact that the CG Auxiliary Manual (which is an official CG regulation) has three different sections in the Chapter on awards:
Section A.  Auxiliary Awards
Section B.  Applicable Coast Guard Awards
Section C.  Applicable Non-Military Awards

So, by having a separate section for "Non-Military Awards", the CG is implying that the other two sections are Miliary awards, which neatly addresses the issue of CAP's regulations. 

What are the "Non-Military Awards"?  Secretary of Transportation's Outstanding Unit Award and the Department of Transportation's 9-11 Medal and Ribbon, DoT Guardian Medal, Gold or Silver Lifesaving Medals, Coast Guard Public Service Awards (that apparently usually go towards non-CG associated civilians, CG Foundation Award of the Year, and the Assoc. for Rescue at Sea Silver Medal Award.