PAWG shuts down

[Pylon]

Haven't seen yet if NYWG is going to be taking any responsibility for portions of PAWG's area of responsibility.   Though I imagine more of the downstaters would be getting in on that, than us "Upstate" New Yorkers.

Certainly it's a shame to see any CAP resources go unused and it's unfortunate whenever this happens.  I'm sure it can also be discouraging for hard-working, well-trained members throughout the Wing.  I think when CAP members really shine through is when they demonstrate superior attitudes, performance and perseverance to get through tough times like these.  My best wishes to our PAWG brethren to get everything squared away that they need to and to get back to operational status.

[JayT]

Haven't seen yet if NYWG is going to be taking any responsibility for portions of PAWG's area of responsibility.   Though I imagine more of the downstaters would be getting in on that, than us "Upstate" New Yorkers.

Certainly it's a shame to see any CAP resources go unused and it's unfortunate whenever this happens.  I'm sure it can also be discouraging for hard-working, well-trained members throughout the Wing.  I think when CAP members really shine through is when they demonstrate superior attitudes, performance and perseverance to get through tough times like these.  My best wishes to our PAWG brethren to get everything squared away that they need to and to get back to operational status.

Hmph, maybe we can get some good Ground Team stuff.

[RH_DelVal_NJ]

woot! more missions for west jersey squadrons!

[TankerT]

No worry kids the Hawk MTN person already said "Screw the AF, we are running the MTN whether they like it or not, everything is a go".

Hmm... I wonder if this attitude is part of the problem?

You would think with all the whistles, orange hats, ranger tabs that they would know how to do things correctly.

[Major Carrales]

No worry kids the Hawk MTN person already said "Screw the AF, we are running the MTN whether they like it or not, everything is a go".

Hmm... I wonder if this attitude is part of the problem?

You would think with all the whistles, orange hats, ranger tabs that they would know how to do things correctly.

Any chance that, instead of an unauthorized Hawk, that the REGION or CAPNHQ could take it over for this occasion? 

[CASH172]

No worry kids the Hawk MTN person already said "Screw the AF, we are running the MTN whether they like it or not, everything is a go".

Hmm... I wonder if this attitude is part of the problem?

You would think with all the whistles, orange hats, ranger tabs that they would know how to do things correctly.

Any chance that, instead of an unauthorized Hawk, that the REGION or CAPNHQ could take it over for this occasion? 

Would this issue really last that long?

[TankerT]

Any chance that, instead of an unauthorized Hawk, that the REGION or CAPNHQ could take it over for this occasion? 

I would highly doubt this.

To be honest... why would I want to send cadets to an activity hosted by a wing that has rampant safety issues.  Some people might say these are a lot of little items... I.E. paperwork... or burnt out lightbulbs...

But... for crying out loud... if these folks aren't even doing their routine pre-use vehicle safety inspection... how can I feel safe having cadets do something like rappel? 

[isuhawkeye]

Just my $.02

My wing sent a GBD to hawk.  That person came back as a certified IC with out the home wing's approval.  That same person then Put out a "Study aid" for FEMA EMI courses.  That study aid was a list of answers to questions. 

When I approached a leader at hawk about attendin gthe program I was informed to not come.  The reason was "We dont like having people with experience attending our courses"

After those experiences I stoped looking at PA wing with rose colored glasses

[sarmed1]

After those experiences I stoped looking at PA wing with rose colored glasses

....just like Iowa wing when given a change of leadership members decided to "quit" rather than accept change because they didnt agree with it...certainly changed my opinion of the "model way to run a CAP wing"...so its not just a PA thing, no where else in CAP should be looked at with rose colored glasses, look in the right places and I bet everyone is pretty screwed up, this just seesm to be the first time someone has actully been called on it.

No worry kids the Hawk MTN person already said "Screw the AF, we are running the MTN whether they like it or not, everything is a go".

Maybe a poor way to phrase it, but nothing in the E-mail really effects the monthly staff training.
HMRS has no vehicles or aircraft assigned, the monthly activity is not classified as a training mission.  The only requirement I would see is that they should verify that all participants complete the required ORM training.  But I would love to see the name and source for the quote by the "Hawk MTN person".......

if these folks aren't even doing their routine pre-use vehicle safety inspection... how can I feel safe having cadets do something like rappel?

I'd say the same thing about "O" rides in the wings that have had A/C crashes.....and thats even a docuemnted case of loss of life, the same cant be said about the PAWG problem. 
I have no doubt that if HMRS rope and rappel operations were an inspected safety item there would be no issues there, but thats my opinion based on first hand knowledge not internet speculation; you are entilted to form your own based on your sources, I'll use mine.

mk

[lordmonar]

Mark,

I usually like your posts....but that last one...was just all over the place.

First....HMRS sometimes puts on a big face and fails to follow through.  I sure would not want anything to do with PAWG if I was told "thanks but no thanks" and if they were producing unqualified personnel.  No matter how un professional the people in my own wing are.

Second...Sound like you are splitting hairs on the HMRS being a training operation or not.  If PAWG is not cleared hot by then....then the school should not be held.

Third...after a major accident we do an investigation and corrective measures are taken as appropriate.  When a whole wing is shut down for lack of safety....enough so that everyone is required to re-take basic safety classes....it does make you wonder about other operations.  Sure it may be isolated....but it may not be.

Stop trying to shift blame to everyone else.....fix the problem and move on.

[FW]

From what I've heard from several sources,  the current safety issues in PAWG are a result of a culture of lax standards for the past few years.  It was considered ok for unit commanders not to prepare proper reports and insure proper vehicle maint.
Aircraft maint. has been up to par.  However, paperwork was not.  Wing Safety Officer was qualified, but was accused of not having proper credentials.  There was no written safety policy in effect.  And, I understand there was no recorded safety down day back in Oct. 

According to the CAP/SE, most of these problems are NOT accurate.  However, since there was a lack of preparation for the inspection, there was no documentation available for the inspector.  This, I understand, was the main cause of the grounding, IMHO. 

Col. Lee, who inherited this situation, will get all the help he needs to correct these problems and, I'm sure the wing will be up and running soon.  Unfortunately, it takes some drastic measures to change a culture. 

One thing PAWG must understand,  SAFETY is Job 1.

BTW, PAWG received Turner Awards in 2000 and 2003.  That's the award for excellence in Safety.

[cuselead]

This is a mass email I received

Commanders,

Unfortunately I had to ground Pennsylvania Wing yesterday, because of there unsatisfactory in safety on there CI inspection. All aircraft and vehicles are grounded, all training and emergency missions are suspended. I am going to do every think in my power to get Pennsylvania up and running as fast as possible. I will be asking for your help to see this through and I know we can get this accomplished soon. I have asked Col Mull and Col Sirois to lead the way and resolve this ASAP. The issues in question has bin lingering for quit some time and it is no reflection on Col Lee.

Thank you
Col Robert Diduch
NER CC




I hope that this e-mail wasn't a copy and paste - but rather a quick re-type.

If it was a copy and paste - I expect a lot more out of a CAP Corporate Officer in terms of Spell Check and use of correct words, that was embarrassing to read! 

[SSgt Rudin]

This is a mass email I received                  C-

Commanders,

Unfortunately I had to ground Pennsylvania Wing yesterday, because of there their unsatisfactory grade in safety on theretheir CI inspection. All aircraft and vehicles are grounded, all training and emergency missions are suspended. I am going to do every thinkthing in my power to get Pennsylvania up and running as fast as possible. I will be asking for your help to see this through and I know we can get this accomplished soon. I have asked Col Mull and Col Sirois to lead the way and resolve this ASAP. The issues in question has bin been lingering for quitquite some time and it is not a reflection on Col Lee's leadership.

Thank you
Col Robert Diduch
NER CC

You would think the Region CC would have someone to proof read his official correspondence.

edit: And I really need to pay attention to that warning that comes up telling me there has been a new reply.

[davidsinn]

One thing PAWG must understand,  SAFETY is Job 1.

I have to disagree with you there. Safety is not job one. Our mission to support 1AF is job one. Our Cadets are job one. Aerospace education is job one. Safety comes in a very close second. If you are too focused on safety you lose sight of why you are there and we might as well all go home. What we do is inherently dangerous. It is everyones job to work in a safe fashion but the mission must get done. From what I've read PAWG has really screwed the pooch and needs to be grounded. They have not followed though with established safety procedures.

[JC004]

...
HMRS has no vehicles or aircraft assigned
...

but...(yeah, I mean the one in front)

[davidsinn]

That's $1,000 in diamond plate right there. Plus $200 in JD seats. The terms "fraud, waste and abuse" come to mind

[SarDragon]

That's $1,000 in diamond plate right there. Plus $200 in JD seats. The terms "fraud, waste and abuse" come to mind

I'll bet it was all donated. More power to them for selling the program. (And bet you're jealous cuz your Rhino (?) isn't similarly equipped!) 

[Major Carrales]

Let's not take shots at the PA Wing right now, they are obviously "down" and it could happen to your Wing or anyone's Wing.   Let's just wish them well and hope they can get past this.

[capchiro]

Does anyone have any idea as to how often Wings have been shut down, which ones and when?  thanks, 

[John Bryan]

Let's not take shots at the PA Wing right now, they are obviously "down" and it could happen to your Wing or anyone's Wing.   Let's just wish them well and hope they can get past this.

Well said.....we are one Civil Air Patrol.....WE are only as strong as OUR weakest link....so for OUR sake we should hope PAWG well and also maybe double check our own units, groups and wings to make sure OUR next inspection goes well