National Commander's Suspension Coming to an end Sunday

[pixelwonk]

nice...

[RiverAux]

The Board of Governors cannot just arbitrarily make management decisions regarding how CAP is run.  What they can do is change the Constitution and Bylaws with a majority vote.  For example, they don't have the authority to select Region Commanders.  If they wanted to select a region commander they would first need to change the Constitution to give themselves that authority, and then they could do it.  It is a small distinction, but an important one in this case. 

[Cecil DP]

The Board of Governors cannot as you say appoint Cooperate Officers, But they do have the responsibility and ability to remove one see the previous response about AFI 10-2702 gives them that authority. They are not appointing a new National Commander, they may be removing one for cause after review by the MARB. In which case the elected Vice Commander will assume the duties pending the next National Board meeting.

[RiverAux]

That AF regulation has absolutely no bearing on BoG activities.  They are not bound by it in any way.  It just merely restates what is in federal law -- which they do have to follow.  Heck, just read the first paragraph in it and you will see that it just explains what CAP is and explains how the AF works with CAP -- it does not actually apply to CAP itself. 

In the case at hand, the CAP Constitution does not grant authority to the BoG to dismiss a National Commander.  Now, they could change the Const. to allow it if they wanted, but they could not do it as things stand now. 

[Skyray]

I am more interested in who is on the board.  I vaguely remembered that General Bergman's term was up, and that he was being replaced by Dwight Wheless.  Went back and researched my sources, and it turns out I am right, General Bergman's term on the board ran out in June.  That brings up several questions.  Why was Wheless replaced by a Southeast Region retread?  Is it because he is not part of the Pineda/Bowling Posse?  And why can't National keep the information up to date?  By the way, Ken Massey, one of those exemplary Florida Wing members that Tedda chewed me out about, wrote a brilliant essay on integrity that got published in NOTF.  So did Marie Gorgans, a former Southeast Region IG staffer.  It is interesting reading.  You should read it, no matter what you think of NOTF.  Massey is a Spaatzen IIRC.

[BillB]

You can't go by the FAA dates for PPL. Mine says it was first issued in 1964, actually it was issued in 1947 or 48, don't remember which since I can't find the log book that far back. Probably was 1948 since my CAP Pilot certificate (yeah I still have one of those antiques) is dated 1948. The PPL was active from then to 1982 when I let the medical lapse.

[Skyray]

Here is an essay from Ken Massey, who posted it to the Florida list and opined that he would like to have wider coverage since he was unable to ascertain the addresses of the BoG.

Ken Massey, LtCol. CAP (ret.)

Open Letter to the Civil Air Patrol Board of Governors

SUBJECT: It's about a crisis of INTEGRITY

Dear Sirs:

In a recent article posted in News of The Force, it
was indicated that there is a strong division of the
members regarding actions to be taken in the case of
Maj. Gen. Antonio J. Pineda. It appears the principal
objection to removing him from office and membership
in the organization is simply that such action has
never been taken before. Let us be clear about what
failure to take action means to the organization.

Any CAP member who violated testing integrity,
falsified awards and decoration applications, used his
position to lie and obstruct investigations into
misconduct, or treated other members unfairly due to
bigotry or for personal gain would surely be removed
from the program. If a common member would be demoted
and expunged from the Civil Air Patrol for any of the
offenses Gen. Pineda has committed then the Board of
Governors CANNOT allow him (or any who have supported
or covered up his offenses) to remain. Why is there
even any discussion of anything short of removal?

It will not be he leniency they proffer to the office
of National Commander that will divorce it from the
humiliation Gen. Pineda has brought upon it. Only the
decisive removal of the cause of that humiliation will
begin the healing process. In short, the decision
reached by the Board of Governors will reflect forever
their view of INTEGRITY as it applies to the Civil Air
Patrol.

James K. Massey, LtCol, CAP (ret.)

[mikeylikey]

So......for those of us who are just a little bit "slower" than the rest of you, QUESTION.....Who can remove the National Commander? QUESTION.....who decides what to do when the MARB makes a decision?  QUESTION.....Why are people citing AFI, then saying they have no impact on CAP?  QUESTION.....Who gives a crap?  The guy should be man enough to step down (as in resign, retire whatever).  He would keep his stars.  We have the AF accepting Courter as the National Commander, Magazines already refer to her at the Commander.  It is time to MOVE ON.  For crying out loud......since she has been acting as Commander, NOTHING NEW has come down from that Office.  The only thing that came down had TP's signature on it, WHICH was a violation of his suspension BTW.  I mean, if he does come back to Office, what kind of HUGE backlash is their going to be.  I would assume mass firings, and many more appointments of his Friends so the next round he can bring back up term extensions......then we will never get rid of him.

[Chaplaindon]

In his marvelously satiracle novel Animal Farm, author George Orwell opined that there is a duplicity in the world where politics is concerned. This duplicity is best seen in the closing pages of the novel where the animal's own (self-written) bill of rights is edited to reflect the evolving political realities in their society. Initally it read, "all animals are equal" later this was revised, "all animals are equal though some are more equal than others."

It seems to me --in true Orwellian fashion-- that CAP has a duplicitous system relavant to membership actions and discipline. One for ordinary "animals" ... non-NEC, or (at least) non-general officers and one for the "more equal than others" leadership.

I recall counselling a 13 y/o cadets who was being sent home from an emcampment/ground team school for cheating. I recall clearly his embarassment and dismay. But rules are rules and he was "gone." No great NB/NEC/BoG soul-searching, no attempts to find a better "way out" and so forth. He was gone (and deservedly so); end of story.

If a regular member, whether 13 or 70 commits violates integrity there should be no Orwellian rationalizating. They should be gone.

I feel certain that if I were caught cheating on an USAF examination (a test for a school CAP members are privileged to attend through the good graces of the Air Staff, no less), I --like that 13 y/o cadet-- would be gone. Again, no BoG soul-searching, no great "investigation" and so forth. I'd be as gone as [name withheld to protect my breakfast] who admitted to taking the ACSC exams fraudulently, in the first place. Again, rightly so.

No one in our nation or in CAP should be seen as "more equal than others" (or, more accurately put, BETTER than anyone else).

As a clergyperson, a chaplain, and one intrusted to lead the morals education of our cadets and adults in CAP (and as a taxpayer) I say to the NB/NEC/BoG (and USAF Air Staff, too) ...

If any member of CAP (or its governing bodies/institutions) accepts (or utilizes) this "more equal than others" approach to excuse that which is unexcusable, they --they themselves-- are a disgrace to their uniform (whether CAP of military) and stand opposite to all our nation and --hopefully, too-- CAP stands for ... equality, "liberty and justice" for all.

We cannot have 2 opposing standards of conduct and integrity in CAP. As Lincoln stated, "a house divided ... cannot stand."

We MUST stand for integrity.

[Major Carrales]

Sir,

Kudos on your use of Orwell this occasion.  Be his politics a strange matter to many here, his approaches in 1984 and Animal Farm are archetypal.

Cadets should be exposed to certain literature to understand governance, amid those items are the US Constitution, Declaration of Independence and working knowledge of other founding documents (Magna Carta, Fundamental Orders of Connecticut, English Bill of Rights)

Lets not forget that our main goal is to make these cadets into solid and strong Citizens.

[Chappie]

As one who has bought into to the Core Values of the USAF and it's CAP adaptation, I believe that those on the BoG should rely on those values in making their decision -- no matter how painful -- regarding the suspended National Commander.   If there is any violation of those values in the allegations that have lodged against the suspended commander, there should not be any question as to what action should be taken.

All I can say to ChaplainDon's previous comment is a hearty "Amen".  I too, have counseled with commanders at Squadron, Group and Wing levels regarding similar incidents as described by ChaplainDon (been there - done that at Encampment as well).  It was painful...but in the long run beneficial to the unit.    

Yes...Integrity is integral...but so is pursuing Excellence in what we do because it will impact our Service.  And Respect is seen when the same rules/principles that are applied to the 13 year old Cadet cheating at Encampment to a National Commander (should those charges be true).

[Chaplaindon]

"Kudos on your use of Orwell this occasion.  Be his politics a strange matter to many here, his approaches in 1984 and Animal Farm are archetypal."

Thank for the kudos!

Major Carrales, the late Mr. Orwell may have espoused some "strange" archetypical paradigms in his fiction, but, (sadly) his dated words seem to "hit home" (in reality) more often than not --even in spite of such great documents as you listed.

Maybe the realities of the 21st Century are, "stranger than fiction."

[Major Carrales]

"Kudos on your use of Orwell this occasion.  Be his politics a strange matter to many here, his approaches in 1984 and Animal Farm are archetypal."

Thank for the kudos!

Major Carrales, the late Mr. Orwell may have espoused some "strange" archetypal paradigms in his fiction, but, (sadly) his dated words seem to "hit home" (in reality) more often than not --even in spite of such great documents as you listed.

Maybe the realities of the 21st Century are, "stranger than fiction."

Eric Blair, aka George Orwell, unlocked what I have described as the corruption of the institutions of Man toward inhumanity.  This comes from the fact that Orwell was a socialist...likely communist...that was totally disallusioned by what the Soviet Union was evolving into.  Anyone who thinks that the Soviet Union was pure communism is daft.

He also commented on ignorant masses, institutionalised rethroic and the altering of history.   These are often utilized today by nations and entities to motivate much of what we see in the news.  

There is some truth in Goldstein's book, however, I suspect Orwell itnended it to be a "wake up call" or "call" to general awareness more than the description of some future dystopia. 

[BlueLakes1]

Anyway, fill me in.  What was it about the pilot wings?

John, you are just determined to get Tedda an excuse to stomp my instep.  Here are some facts, I'll send you the rest of it via PM, although it has been discussed previously on line.

Check his FAA certificates on the FAA database.  He has a Third Class Medical in about June of 1991, and a PPL issued in 2004.

The dates of medical and/or airman certificate issuance in the FAA database have no bearing on each other, or on whether or not TP had a Form 5 at some point in the past.

I personally know someone who, according to the FAA database, had their most recent medical certificate issued in 1982, but who had a date of issue on their FAA commercial certificate in 2005. When the FAA started issuing plastic certificates, and replacing the SSN with an unrelated certificate number, many people began exchanging for the new certificates. Any new certificate bears a new DOI, and you need not hold a current medical to get a reissued card (since non-CFI airman certificates don't expire). I know a number of pilots who exchanged simply to remove their SSN from the card.

While there was never an issue with my medical being expired, when I went from paper to plastic my DOI changed from 23 Nov 02 to 9 Feb 04.

[Skyray]

While I agree with a lot of the static analysis put forth, for instance my own certificate got a new date every time I added a type rating, the medical data is relied upon by FAA inspectors, and an out of date medical will cause you to flunk a ramp check if for some reason you can't show a current one or if you have to replace one that is lost.

But let's go to the dynamic analysis.  No entry in 1990.  Medical entered in June of 1991 after I confronted him about not having a pilots license.  No subsequent entry for thirteen years until once again the issue of the CAP pilots wings comes up and he has CFIs working for him and doing his bidding.  Then a PPL is entered without a corresponding update to the medical.  And my wing commander set me on this trail because there was no wing record of a form five.  All he had to do was show me the paperwork and I would have gone away and left him alone.  But he gave me some BS about being exempt from the FAA database because he was a law enforcement officer.  Kind of like he claimed that he was exempt from the Wing Commander's direct order not to carry a weapon while in (CAP) uniform because he was a law enforcement officer.  My rules; my way.  It finally came home to roost.

[RiverAux]

Guys, lets be careful here...we've finally got a somewhat decent discussion of this issue going again without getting locked right away. 

[RiverAux]

By the way, in regards to the length of the suspension & NOTF's math skills....there is nothing preventing the BoG from meeting and coming to a decision about this prior to the end of the suspension period that was previously announced.  Supposedly they were "investigating" during this period and they could conclude their "investigation" early and make a decision one way or another. 

[Skyray]

One way or another, we should know tomorrow.

[ZigZag911]

NOTF may be correct, there may be a decision issued by the BOG tomorrow.

It is just as possible nothing happens...at all...ever.....when we get near the 180 day point, the BOG determines it "needs more time for deliberation", extends suspension indefinitely, and lets the clock run out on the current national commander's term of office.

Not an ideal solution, on many levels, perhaps most of all moral.

[CAP_truth]

Maybe the recent changes in the national board has to do with Article XV of the CAP constitution dated 6-June-2007 at the last BoG meeting. If you look at the  national board minutes only 5 members vote to extend the term of office for the national commander. Maybe someone is trying to get their ducks in a roll for a board vote.