What to do: NCO or Officer, need some insight

[NCRblues]

Ok, Lordmonar, I have an actual question.

Not trying to be facetious or snarky, honest question.

Ned and yourself speak of a pool of candidates or the untapped potential with the NCO idea and maybe future enlisted corps.

Who are these people and where are they?

I have bought into NIN's recruiting ideas, even attempted an open house/pipeline recruiting event, with very little success. I advertised hard, even getting on the major talk radio during the drive home. I sold all the great points of what I love about this program and has kept me here for 17 years now. Like I said very little success.

Have you all found a source of volunteers who only want to be enlisted? Where are these people who are going to show and help? Because honestly, I need their help now...

So, again, not trying to be snarky or a smart %#*. I just really want to understand.

[grunt82abn]

The simple answer is that, as of today, there are no significant differences between a CAP officer and a CAP NCO. They both participate in the same Professional Development program, can hold the same duty assignments, complete the same Emergency Services qualifications, and participate in the same activities, programs, and missions. That may change in the future, but it's the reality today. As such, you should wear the insignia you feel most comfortable wearing. It's no ones decision, but yours. Good luck!

Thanks Storm!!!

[lordmonar]

Some....but not all.....are former NCO's who drive by CAP take one look at the officers and keep on driving.
The all officer structure turns them off.   Or they see the quality of some of those officers and are turned off.

I know this to be true in my AOR.   But I accept that everywhere is not like my AOR so YMMV.

If you are looking for a source of volunteers......and you are near a base......contact their NCO Association (TOP Three, First Sergeants Council, Chief's council, CPO locker....what ever your local service calls it.)  Ask to give the 5 minute CAP speech....and ask them to send anyone who needs some community service bullets, or some extra leadership opportunities.

[grunt82abn]

Ok, Lordmonar, I have an actual question.

Not trying to be facetious or snarky, honest question.

Ned and yourself speak of a pool of candidates or the untapped potential with the NCO idea and maybe future enlisted corps.

Who are these people and where are they?

I have bought into NIN's recruiting ideas, even attempted an open house/pipeline recruiting event, with very little success. I advertised hard, even getting on the major talk radio during the drive home. I sold all the great points of what I love about this program and has kept me here for 17 years now. Like I said very little success.

Have you all found a source of volunteers who only want to be enlisted? Where are these people who are going to show and help? Because honestly, I need their help now...

So, again, not trying to be snarky or a smart %#*. I just really want to understand.

Along the same lines of trying not to be a wisenheimer, I joined last month and already have three prior service leads that want to join as NCO's and also fly. Just like me, they never knew CAP was there for anyone to be a Senior Members, they thought, just like me, that Senior Members were actual USAF Officers and NCO's selected to run a JROTC type program. Maybe if we had a dynamic, nationwide recruiting push, we would be able to tap a viable resource for CAP.

[sarmed1]

Again......maybe if down the road.....we had NCO staffing the jobs currently held by officers.....and those officers would then be able to free up their time to do their real officer jobs of strategic leadership, planning and thinking.  Your problem is that you thin that CAP is run the way the military is....and it is not.  In the military NCOs do all the jobs that CAP officers are doing.  So let's call them what they are instead of giving every high school graduate with some free time an officer.

It may be mostly Pat's perception (so I dont wont it repeated as CAP Gospel from the NCO corps)  But that is the answer to most of these questions.   I do not disagree, too many officers that are officers because CAP has a "mostly" officer system.  CAP is run enough like the military (at least on paper) that the theory of tactical leaders and strategic leaders is not that far fetched.  Based on the above, I see an eventual shift from everyone is an officer to only those in the "strategic" positions need be an officer, everyone else is an airman/NCO.  More senior members will join and become NCO's (ie no college degree or specialized skills) and some will move on or be recruited to become officers. 

Maybe that I am off base here, but I think that is the white elephant in the room, the only way for an NCO system to really have the "effect" that everyone seems to think it will, is if CAP creates an actual caste system of airman/NCO's and officers.  Its not a cart before the horse, just no one really knows what the horse is.  Well I think its that on XYZ date CAP is going to say if you dont have these requirements you are an NCO if you have these ones here you are an officer.  These are officers jobs and these are NCO jobs.  FGO's mentor junior officers & SNCO's mentor airman and lower grade NCO's.

mk

[Eclipse]

but I think that is the white elephant in the room, the only way for an NCO system to really have the "effect" that everyone seems to think it will, is if CAP creates an actual caste system of airman/NCO's and officers.

I agree completely, and have said so several times.

The problem comes in when you try to do this in a volunteer environment that has inconsistent training,
lack of command imperative, and nearly non-existent ability to enforce even the most basic regulations
without alienating the members.

How long do you think 50 year old NCOs with 12 years in will stick around to listen to 21 year old
Captains in a volunteer environment? It's one thing when you're getting paid to SUAC, a whole
different paradigm on people's free time when you're lucky they showed up at all.

Military experience and a degree don't carry nearly the weight they are given credit for
in a volunteer paradigm mentoring adolescents and herding adult cats.  The look of
"why won't they listen?" is both priceless and demoralizing on the average Chief or
FGO who walks into CAP thinking they have things knocked.  BTDT.

Yes, the military experience gets you past level-1 uniform issues, you can get up to speed
on the colorful jargon faster, and you get to walk around with all the preconceived notions
that will fit in your pockets.  Beyond that, members are reminded regularly "that CAP isn't the military,
and BTW "please" is as important as "sir", because no one in this room needs to pay you any mind
unless your appointment put you in their chain, and even then "my day job, kids, and Netflix queue
(not necessarily in that order) will get my attention before you do."

The ROI of CAP is accepting people "as they are" and leveraging their existing skills, while
hopefully enhancing them.  That idea is broken today because CAP is so short handed, and
has shrunk to a level that most unit CCs view everyone who walks in the door as the "savior of x".

Of course there's also the issue of mission and purpose, but as long as CAP able to dress in a similar
fashion to it's parent service, the rest will take care of itself, right?

[Майор Хаткевич]

Ok, fine, lets look at it differently. Who will the officers be? Commander? Deputy? "Department" Heads?

What's a typical unit be like?

[Майор Хаткевич]

How long do you think 50 year old NCOs with 12 years in will stick around to listen to 21 year old
Captains in a volunteer environment?

Pft. We have that now with few NCOs.

[Eclipse]

How long do you think 50 year old NCOs with 12 years in will stick around to listen to 21 year old
Captains in a volunteer environment?

Pft. We have that now with few NCOs.

Agreed, but there is no separation of duties, nor any caste system today.  That's where the issues
will come in.

As it stands, anything not assigned falls onto the CC.  Does that change, too?

SUI Q 116: "Is X duty assigned and completed as per Y regulation."

Response:  "No - Reg 0U812 restricts that to TSgt or below. Unit currently has no NCOs of proper grade."

IG: "Well, who's going to do that?"

Unit CC (Capt w/ Degree in Botany): "No idea, but the regs are clear."

[Майор Хаткевич]

Presumably a degree won't be enough to become an officer...Otherwise CAP will look very similar to today.

[Mitchell 1969]

As far as what you can do operationally, administratively or professionally....there is no difference.

The only limit is that you can not Command.  You can Deputy Command....just not Command.

I think I found another limit. Unless NCOs can be chaplains.

Does anybody know?

35-5 seems pretty clear on this when combined with 265-1. Meet the requirements for appointment as a chaplain and you're an officer....

Yah. I think there's another thing to consider. The CAP Chaplain Service is affiliated with their USAF counterparts in ways much closer than most fields in CAP, with CAP chaplains augmenting USAF chaplains. Fair enough, given the similarities in professional qualifications and identical endorsement requirements.

Having a CAP TSgt show up to perform chaplain duties at a USAF facility would be yet another un-needed CAP oddity that would give due and justified pause.

So, with all considered, I'll go out on a limb and say that, by regulation or otherwise, for now, we have at least two assignments that are not NCOable. And there is neither sadness nor glee in that, it's just the way it is.

[Tim Day]

I've seen two rationales presented so far:

• CAP NCO program as a way to recruit Active Duty NCOs
• CAP NCO to more credibly model what it means to be an NCO for cadets

I appreciate seeing these presented - as a volunteer I like to know the thought processes behind organizational policy changes. As a mid level manager, it's great to be able to answer hard questions from subordinates about organizational changes.

As stated in Learn to Lead, Volume 4, Chapter 13:

4. Put mechanisms in place for communicating vital issues to frontline employees. People aren't going to pick up on what leaders want them to know by osmosis. You need to tell them clearly, succinctly, and often. That means putting in place a system, or a series of systems, to ensure that transparency gets translated into action.

and

5. Prepare managers to answer tough questions. If managers tell staff the organization is instituting a hiring or salary freeze, they'll almost certainly hear questions like, "If money's so tight, how can the company afford the new database?" The manager needs to know ahead of time exactly how to answer, so he won't blurt out a we/they perpetuator like, "Sorry, that's the orders from the top."

The reaction we are seeing to the NCO program validates the principles on which we are instructing our cadets, which is pretty cool. Col Lee, you probably wrote (or at least help edit) some of this. Right now, I'm at the "Uh, that's just what NHQ has decided to do, and I support it" stage. I'd love to be able to provide a brief and credible paragraph on the utility of CAP NCOs.

A good start would be:
Civil Air Patrol leadership is implementing an NCO program in order to increase our outreach to Active Duty NCOs and to more effectively model NCO concepts to our cadets.

[THRAWN]

As far as what you can do operationally, administratively or professionally....there is no difference.

The only limit is that you can not Command.  You can Deputy Command....just not Command.

I think I found another limit. Unless NCOs can be chaplains.

Does anybody know?

35-5 seems pretty clear on this when combined with 265-1. Meet the requirements for appointment as a chaplain and you're an officer....

Yah. I think there's another thing to consider. The CAP Chaplain Service is affiliated with their USAF counterparts in ways much closer than most fields in CAP, with CAP chaplains augmenting USAF chaplains. Fair enough, given the similarities in professional qualifications and identical endorsement requirements.

Having a CAP TSgt show up to perform chaplain duties at a USAF facility would be yet another un-needed CAP oddity that would give due and justified pause.

So, with all considered, I'll go out on a limb and say that, by regulation or otherwise, for now, we have at least two assignments that are not NCOable. And there is neither sadness nor glee in that, it's just the way it is.

That's actually included in the regs. Chaplains must meet DoD requirements as well as CAP requirements. Either way, you're correct. It's an officer billet and it would be inappropriate for CAP to field enlisted Chaplains. Chaplain's assistants, or RPs or what ever they are called this week, is another matter.

[lordmonar]

Tim
We did that.  Way back when the program was first announced. 

You are right that CAP is bad at communications.  We have had a lot of questions we (the NCO committee) just can't answer because the official changes to regs are jammed up in staffing or the reg moratorium. 
I'd like to give definitive answers but until played by God and everyone we can't. 


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[Al Sayre]

One other thing that will need to be considered is the use of billeting and base facilities when activities are held on a military base.  Generally, Officers and NCO's have separate billeting, messing, and club facilities which may or may not be located geographically near each other.  This may cause some issues with the transportation and supervision of cadets and cadre after working hours.  It may also cause some individual rancor like "How come 2d Lt Newguy is in a nice efficiency suite in the BOQ and SSgt Olddude is stuck in an open bay barracks that doesn't even have air conditioning?"

[Tim Day]

One other thing that will need to be considered is the use of billeting and base facilities when activities are held on a military base.  Generally, Officers and NCO's have separate billeting, messing, and club facilities which may or may not be located geographically near each other.  This may cause some issues with the transportation and supervision of cadets and cadre after working hours.  It may also cause some individual rancor like "How come 2d Lt Newguy is in a nice efficiency suite in the BOQ and SSgt Olddude is stuck in an open bay barracks that doesn't even have air conditioning?"

While it's rare that NCOs have separate transient billeting anymore, if it does happen the answer is easy. SSgt Olddude chose to be an NCO.

[Holding Pattern]

It may also cause some individual rancor like "How come 2d Lt Newguy is in a nice efficiency suite in the BOQ and SSgt Olddude is stuck in an open bay barracks that doesn't even have air conditioning?"

Answer: The AF didn't want you to miss out on the full NCO experience. 

[Tim Day]

Tim
We did that.  Way back when the program was first announced. 

You are right that CAP is bad at communications.  We have had a lot of questions we (the NCO committee) just can't answer because the official changes to regs are jammed up in staffing or the reg moratorium. 
I'd like to give definitive answers but until played by God and everyone we can't. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I see the announcement from 2013 here, but I don't see the "why". Here's the closest the announcement came:

Along with making the organization more appealing to past and present military NCOs, the restructured program is also designed to provide CAP commanders at all levels with greater access to the professional military skills, training and experience that the NCOs can readily provide. CAP members without military backgrounds are also expected to benefit from their NCO colleagues' expertise in military organization, leadership and management.

Nothing in this paragraph explains why we are doing this - it approaches some generalized expectations of benefit, but that's it. I'm not attacking the decision, I'm just reminding our organization of the content of our own teaching material. There's a mismatch between what we state as our doctrine and what we do.

[TheTravelingAirman]

It may also cause some individual rancor like "How come 2d Lt Newguy is in a nice efficiency suite in the BOQ and SSgt Olddude is stuck in an open bay barracks that doesn't even have air conditioning?"

Answer: The AF didn't want you to miss out on the full NCO experience. 

Hell, it's happening here right now. Our Nat'l Guard brothers deployed here are split into either 4/6 to a room, with various health hazards for the Amn/NCOs in the forgotten dorms on a hill, and 2 to a room in the base hotel for the SNCOs/Officers.

But I'll still keep my stripes. Interacting with folks has generated some interest, without the "why are there 17 El-tees in this room" reaction I got when I introduced one of my troops to CAP. That reaction will vary based on the person, but (in my opinion) if people want to tout "US Air Force Auxiliary" then we need to at least mirror the AF and have both a strong officer and NCO corps.

[Flying Pig]

How long do you think 50 year old NCOs with 12 years in will stick around to listen to 21 year old
Captains in a volunteer environment?

Pft. We have that now with few NCOs.

This is CAP.  A members authority comes from their position, not their rank.  No different than a 21yr old Captain who is a former Spaatz cadet who finds themselves as a SqCC by default leading a bunch of Majors and LTCs who have all done rotations as SqCC.

The NCO idea is nothing more than a recruiting tool.  CAP cant seem to recruit based on what they do, so the only way it seems CAP can attract military NCOs is to dangle stripes in their face.  its going to back fire, because those NCOs will be recruited, then get into CAP and discover their stripes, your oak leaves or that other persons bars really have no bearing on ANYTHING that happens in CAP.