What to do: NCO or Officer, need some insight

[Eclipse]

The ability to mentor cadets, or anyone else in CAP is in no way related to grade, CAP or otherwise.

Comments regarding CAP's comparison to the USAF in terms of structure also fail on examination,
as grade confers no authority whatsoever - in a world where SMWOGs command squadrons
and can direct the action of generals, trying to portend that being an NCO infers or confers some
special ability to mentor, guide, or lead in a volunteer paradigm simply doesn't work.

CAP needs leaders from all sectors and backgrounds, not people who believe their grade, or belonging
to one caste vs. another, will make a bit of difference.

There's nothing wrong with allowing NCOs to promote, but to try and infer there will be a "program",
or worse, the NCO stripes somehow carry more "weight" in a CAP context then just exposes how
poorly thought out this will be.

It's going to take 10+ years to normalize the changes in the officer grades just encompassing
the greater PD and TIG that was implemented in 2014, and ultimately it means nothing because
it just extended the timeline and artificially suppressed the FGOs to people who have more flexible lives
and / or can write the checks for the staff colleges...correction, it's increased the sour grapes and stalled the
PD of a fair number of members who are our most active because they have done the math and realized
further promotion will never happen for them, which means the number of members with Master ratings, and
even senior will plummet in the next few years as members realize there is little to no point in the effort.

You can't fix things like this in pieces, especially when the over-reaching idea is moot to start with.

The amount of time wasted on this subject, grade and PD, when you consider that none of it is required, and
most of it is treated like a check box should be grounds for an FWA complaint

[NCRblues]

I am reading a ton of reasons listed why there is no need for NCO's, the same reasons Lordmonar has brought to the this discussion of why an NCO Corps is needed!!! He stated that many of us former NCO's have mentored and trained both Enlisted and Officers in the military, which in my case is true. Developing professional Soldiers, Airman, Marines, and Seamen is what we do. This is why I have chosen Cadet Programs as a specialty, so that I can mentor and pass down the things I learned to the next generation that will take up where I left off. I know this isn't the military, but it is an Auxiliary of the Air Force, that uses the USAF chain of command, and unit structure, something most NCO's that are in CAP should know all to well. For someone like me, an NCO Corps will help me fit in with CAP, IMHO. I loved being an NCO during my 21 years, I am sure I would love being an NCO in CAP also!!! My biggest hang-up with it is being able to be a pilot. If I could get a definite answer, or find it in a regulation that states I can fly as a TSgt, I would put my paperwork in today to put on my stripes back on today. The only other issue is; that I could see myself a permanent TSgt because it seems like there isn't a ton of knowledge on how to actually promote an NCO. I feel that if I complete all the same training to gain higher rank as an officer, I should at least gain the a little rank as an NCO without leaving my squadron.   

What would you be doing different if you had stripes on your sleeves vs bars on your shoulders in CAP? Nothing.

Many of us here on this board (and in CAP in general) have been NCO's. All of us have done CAP just fine for decades without an "NCO advisor" or without wearing stripes.

All we have heard about this NCO program is "oh it will help, trust us". Yet no one, not on here nor from on high, has explained how this will help the current situation in CAP.

I was just informed that the county I was a cadet in is almost empty of CAP units. The third most populated county in this state and the highest income per resident of the entire state has only a single CAP unit left in it. (At the high count, this county had 5 units in it)

I want someone to explain how an NCO is going to fix the issues CAP is facing.

[grunt82abn]

I really wish I had the answers to your questions on how to fix the major issues of CAP. I am ignorant to all the major workings of CAP and NHQ. Apparently I hit a touchy subject with some and that was not my intent. I was just looking for insight into being an NCO for myself, not advocating for or against the instituting of the NCO program. Apparently there are tremendous issues in CAP that again, I am totally ignorant of, and probably will be for sometime until I get acquainted more with the entire workings of the CAP program. I am just a new guy who was sitting on the fence about which to choose and was looking for information to make an informed decision, not to start a fight, and not to be insulting. 

[Storm Chaser]

The simple answer is that, as of today, there are no significant differences between a CAP officer and a CAP NCO. They both participate in the same Professional Development program, can hold the same duty assignments, complete the same Emergency Services qualifications, and participate in the same activities, programs, and missions. That may change in the future, but it's the reality today. As such, you should wear the insignia you feel most comfortable wearing. It's no ones decision, but yours. Good luck!

[grunt82abn]

The simple answer is that, as of today, there are no significant differences between a CAP officer and a CAP NCO. They both participate in the same Professional Development program, can hold the same duty assignments, complete the same Emergency Services qualifications, and participate in the same activities, programs, and missions. That may change in the future, but it's the reality today. As such, you should wear the insignia you feel most comfortable wearing. It's no ones decision, but yours. Good luck!

Thank you!!!

[lordmonar]

As Storm Chase has pointed out.

As of right now.   There is no difference between Officers and NCOs in CAP.   We do the same jobs, we do the same PD, we do the same mission.

So......there are no PROs nor CONs for being an NCO vs an Officer (even the issue of NCOs being a commander has a an already in place fix....appoint the NCO an Officer and then make him commander.)

Having said all that.

We are working on an NCO specific PD system.  As that grows and the NCO corps grow we will be re-writing job and duty descriptions to differentiate between NCO roles and Officer roles.

As for the specific "issues" brought up by the Angst Squad.   No one has come up with a single reason not to expand our NCO corps other then to say "well there's nothing wrong with how we do it now".........and then they go to another thread and complain about how everything we do on the leadership side is so screwed up.

Yes......we don't have a full blown, 100% polished, 100% viable program.   Yes CAP is slow as Christmas Sunday in getting anything done.....and it does not matter that we have had a lot of the things they point out ready to go for nearly a year now.....CAP is slow.   It has always been slow...it probably will always be slow.

For those who point out that it is a distraction from fixing other issues.....I say how so?   Point out one issue that is not getting done because the NCO committee is working on this one program?   Although I think this program does address the issue about developing better leaders.   Or will in the future, once it is matured and we worked out the kinks.   

And yes I agree there is no proof that it will fix anything.   There is not proof that it will make things worse.....ergo....why the angst in letting us try?   

YMMV.

And since I'm repeating myself......again.......I'll stop here for awhile.   If anyone has any specific questions or comes up with any new "issues" they would like to bring up....please feel free to PM me.

G'night

[Eclipse]

No one has come up with a single reason not to expand our NCO corps...

FTFY.

[Storm Chaser]

I do have a question. PM sent. Thanks.

[lordmonar]

No one has come up with a single reason not to expand our NCO corps...

FTFY.

Your fix is in error.

[Eclipse]

No one has come up with a single reason not to expand our NCO corps...

FTFY.

Your fix is in error.

Cite please.

[lordmonar]

How about this one.



How about just about every post I or NED have made on the topic of NCOs.

So...there's three.

[THRAWN]

Ya know...if you really want to mentor some enlisted troops and officers, get some Warrant Officers...nah...I would have to put my coffee down.

[Eclipse]

How about just about every post I or NED have made on the topic of NCOs.

Please try again.  The request is for specifics, which have never been provided by anyone involved with
the actual program, nor who advocate the idea.  Something this far-reaching should not be undertaken
with wishful thinking and playing a Beach Boys song on infinite repeat.

It's almost as if those advocating the program never thought they'ed actually get approval, and were unprepared
for what to do next.  Pretending this opens the door to recruiting more NCOs, or somehow accesses leadership
resources not currently available would seem to indicate those who typed that sentence don't understand how CAP works.

Few, if anyone, have issues with prior-service NCOs retaining their grade, nor even being able to promote internal to CAP,
but the rest, as is par for CAP's course, is the cart before CAP can even agree on whether a horse is necessary, and if so, for what.

The only thing that gets you past the legit questions are legit, direct answers, not a lot of "we're hoping" and "we're planning'.
As of today, it's not even possible to keep NCOs out of unit command positions, even though it's prohibited by reg, and then
the fix "just turn them into officers".

So much for "accessing leadership resources previously unavailable"...

[lordmonar]

Eclipse.....for one who is always trying to use logic and demand cites......and then when one supplies them for you....you move the bar.

My and Ned's and the white paper are three instances of people who see a need....have communicated the need....and see a possible solution to that need.

So....once again.

You complain about lack of leadership and lack of training....and when a group of CAP members get together to build just that.....you throw up your arms and say "But we don't need that".

I am beginning to think that you are just a Troll.   That no solution is going to satisfies you....unless it comes from you.

We are trying something new.    We know it is going to be slow.  We know we are not going to get it right first time.
We are open to suggestion.   But I have not seen one good suggestion from you.  Just a lot of "it's not gonna work" and "You screwed up the soft opening" and such.

And now...I'm really out on this topic for a while.

[THRAWN]

Thanks. Now I have Sloop John B in my head....

The Maryland MILDEP just did this. Invented a decoration and then said...we will let you know what the criteria is.

I get the sense that there is too much emphasis on the flashy new insignia but no real answers about the meat of the program, even from those involved in the development. We have no issue with mentoring cadets by officers. This is just coming off as a solution in search of a problem. Good.lick with it but it doesnt seem to have much real value for the amoint of effort that has been expended.

[Ned]

The ability to mentor cadets, or anyone else in CAP is in no way related to grade, CAP or otherwise.

Non-concur.  Or to use terms you seem to enjoy, "cite, please."

Common definitions of "mentoring" vary significantly, but CAP has a significant amount of mentoring doctrine (CAPP 50-7, "Mentoring: Building Our Members, CAPP 50-6, Cadet Programs Mentoring, and the requirements in the 52-16 to appoint specific mentors to new cadets and for P III cadets to serve as mentors to junior cadets).

Our doctrine points out that one of the key components of mentoring is to serve as a role model.  ("Some one whose behavior is worthy of emulation.")

And as much as you and some other non-prior service folks think otherwise, NCOs and officers model different leadership behaviors in accomplishing the mission.  (Refer to our multiple previous discussions on this topic.  Or ask anyone who has served in a military organization since about 500 B.C..)

While every CAP officer I know has many admirable qualities worthy of emulation, the great majority of CAP cadets are cadet airmen or NCOS in Phases I and II of our program and are focused on learning followership and direct leadership techniques.  Accordingly, essentially by definition, in many cases CAP NCOs can serve as more effective role models than CAP officers.  But since most units do not currently have access to NCOs, officers are all that are available to most cadets.  Focus on growing the NCO corps will help our cadets.

Comments regarding CAP's comparison to the USAF in terms of structure also fail on examination,
as grade confers no authority whatsoever - in a world where SMWOGs command squadrons
and can direct the action of generals, trying to portend that being an NCO infers or confers some
special ability to mentor, guide, or lead in a volunteer paradigm simply doesn't work.

Ummm, cite please.  Please name the squadron with the SMWOG in command that has one or more GOs assigned.  I'll wait.

(And, yes, currently every single CAP NCO has literally years of training and experience in mentoring, guiding, leading.  On average, for more than our typical officer member, in fact.)

There's nothing wrong with allowing NCOs to promote, but to try and infer there will be a "program",
or worse, the NCO stripes somehow carry more "weight" in a CAP context then just exposes how
poorly thought out this will be.

For the sake of argument, it sounds like you would agree that the NCO program will essentially be as valuable as the officer PD program that you and I have participated in, in the sense that "greater officer grade will [not] somehow carry more 'weight' in a CAP context."  It seems problematic to condemn the NCO program for having the same "fault" as the officer program you currently enjoy.

You can't fix things like this in pieces, especially when the over-reaching idea is moot to start with.

It bears repeating that CAP has had NCOs since the beginning.  This is just a tweak on the professional development and appointment system.  Officer PD has been tweaked numerous times without the sky falling.  This is really no different.

The amount of time wasted on this subject, grade and PD, when you consider that none of it is required, and
most of it is treated like a check box should be grounds for an FWA complaint

We easily waste 10-20x more time on uniforms, ribbons, and badges, sir.

No FWA complaints so far.

And it is hard to imagine that attempting to implement a program directly approved by the Assistant Secretary of the AF could ever amount to FWA.

[THRAWN]

NED I Can bite at the first 2....

I had no issue mentoring cadets as an officer and have 2 TORCH Awards to prove it.

Point 2...Air Victory Compositr Squadron NERNJ079 was structured like that for a bit...

Now I have a meeting....bbl....

[Eclipse]

Most of your response is red herring or wishful thinking, so there's not much point in responding, again.

Ummm, cite please.  Please name the squadron with the SMWOG in command that has one or more GOs assigned.  I'll wait.

As of last check, there were at least two NCOs serving as unit CC's, and a couple of SMWOG. nothing prevents GOs, Cols, or
anyone else from joing those units and being directed by a member who has been in CAP long enough for his check to clear.

There's no enlisted corps to mentor on the senior side, and as to the cadets, that is more of the "Chief experience" nonsense
that stalls many progressions.

Assuming a fix is needed, you can't fix this in pieces. If it's worth the effort, just do it and stop playing games, or pretending it's
going to accomplish things which are impossible in the current state of CAP.

Almost the entity of CAP is based on a combination of "you're lucky I showed up at all" and "thank god you took the job" - there's
no time left for the few holding the corners for PD or for 5-year development plans, since a lot of the FNGs don't even stick around
that long anymore due to the current state of the program.

Show us a recruiting plan that actually gets CAP to a state of manning where an enlisted corps would even be functional.

Show us the list of unit staff jobs better, more completely accomplished by an NCO vs an officer, and then show us where all those
new people are coming from.

Etc., etc.

And "having NCOs" isn't the same as having an actual program that works in the way it's supposed to.  It was, for the most part,
just a prolonging the inevitable march to FGO.  CAP also had manning tables, until it could no longer sustain that idea because
of shrinking numbers and the inability to fill the jobs correctly.

Who is the better mentor?  A level V Col or an NCO, because in a world where people cycle back to the squadron on a regular basis,
the need for NCOs as "mentors" vs. the L3's to V's sitting at squadrons is zero.

[lordmonar]

Most of your response is red herring or wishful thinking, so there's not much point in responding, again.

Or that could mean you got nothing and you deflecting.  But okay.

Ummm, cite please.  Please name the squadron with the SMWOG in command that has one or more GOs assigned.  I'll wait.

As of last check, there were at least two NCOs serving as unit CC's, and a couple of SMWOG. nothing prevents GOs, Cols, or
anyone else from joing those units and being directed by a member who has been in CAP long enough for his check to clear.

So.....you are basically saying...."You are right sir.....my example does not exist." and those few that are sort of like what I discribe are a 3-4 our of some 2000+ units.....so statistically null and void.

There's no enlisted corps to mentor on the senior side,

There could be.  But should we not build the NCOs that will mentor them before we build the airman?

and as to the cadets, that is more of the "Chief experience" nonsense that stalls many progressions.

No...it just means we have CP NCOs and CP Officers that work together to mentor our cadets as the progress up the ranks.

Assuming a fix is needed, you can't fix this in pieces. If it's worth the effort, just do it and stop playing games, or pretending it's
going to accomplish things which are impossible in the current state of CAP.

Yep....that's the answer.  Burn it all down tomorrow and start over!  Because........reasons?  Why can't we do it in stages?  I mean we don't make our cadets start studying for the Spaatz on their first meeting.

Almost the entity of CAP is based on a combination of "you're lucky I showed up at all" and "thank god you took the job" - there's
no time left for the few holding the corners for PD or for 5-year development plans, since a lot of the FNGs don't even stick around
that long anymore due to the current state of the program.

And an NCO corps helps or hinders this status quo in what way?  At the very worst it makes people have to look up regs that they don't normally look at.   At the bottom line it is still those same people with those same issues.

Show us a recruiting plan that actually gets CAP to a state of manning where an enlisted corps would even be functional.

As opposed to the recruiting plan you officers have got that gets CAP to a state of manning where an enlisted corps would even be functional?

Show us the list of unit staff jobs better, more completely accomplished by an NCO vs an officer, and then show us where all those
new people are coming from.

Again......maybe if down the road.....we had NCO staffing the jobs currently held by officers.....and those officers would then be able to free up their time to do their real officer jobs of strategic leadership, planning and thinking.  Your problem is that you thin that CAP is run the way the military is....and it is not.  In the military NCOs do all the jobs that CAP officers are doing.  So let's call them what they are instead of giving every high school graduate with some free time an officer.  (sorry for the insult there.)

And "having NCOs" isn't the same as having an actual program that works in the way it's supposed to.  It was, for the most part,
just a prolonging the inevitable march to FGO.  CAP also had manning tables, until it could no longer sustain that idea because
of shrinking numbers and the inability to fill the jobs correctly.

What the hell are you talking about?   Maybe....when the plan is fully implemented......maybe we wont have  a dozen a dime field grade officers.   Maybe we will have a super big pool of experienced MSgts who have been doing their job at the squadron level since forever.   And then we got a pool of very capable individuals who bring the right skills to CAP apply themselves to the leadership/management track and hold positions of authority doing Officer stuff.  Instead of the status quo of "master" rated Lt Cols who barely know where the Wing Headquarters are located let alone what a wing staff officer does on a daily basis.

Who is the better mentor?  A level V Col or an NCO, because in a world where people cycle back to the squadron on a regular basis,
the need for NCOs as "mentors" vs. the L3's to V's sitting at squadrons is zero.

I know some Level V's who can't find the bathroom.   And there is no reason why those NCO's are not getting their PD done.   They have to in fact if they want to promote.  So your argument is null and void.   

But I think I found out what your problem is.     You don't like the fact that NCOs and Officers with real military experience get to waltz in and "take over".   I can understand that.    It's kind of short sighted but I can understand where you are coming from.

[Eclipse]

All that text, and still no answer to the direct questions.