Senator John McCain claims CAP is Pork Barrel Spending (Again)

[Devil Doc]

Hey, im not bashing the Needy. When my parents divorced when I was 5 and my sister 3. We lived on Reduced/free lunches, foodstamps.etc. My mom also worked 2 to 3 jobs, made sure we always had what we needed. We were also taught it is only to better yourself, once my mom got back on her feet numerous times, we got off welfare. I know there a people whoare truly needy. Im just saying the Welfare/Foodstamps program is abused. I know the economy is  bad right now, but when I hear people say they rather stay on unemploymeny than work, something is twisted.

The government is actually doing a Board on all government employees, to try to reduce the pay. I can tell you this, the UNION is why you get High Paid, Lazy Government employees. Trust me there are numerous employees that barely skate by because they know with a governmwnt job they are set, and will not get fired because of the UNION. IMO Unions in the Government is an Oxy Moron.

[Duke Dillio]

So what what about those families who are doing the best they can and don't have a big screen tv or name brand products who are simply trying to survive.  I am sure you know diapers, formula, clothes for kids are not cheap by any means. And even though some aspects would be open per say those employees would not be getting paid like they should.

Those families have to live with their decisions.  I know how much diapers, formula, and clothes cost because I made the decision to have kids.  My family has been going about it on our own with NO government assistance.  I've had to make hard decisions based on my budget.  We live and we learn.  I have gone without so that my kids could have what they needed.  If those government workers believe that they are not making enough, then perhaps they should choose a different occupation or a different organization to work for.

That having been said, I challenge you to show me a government worker who works for minimum wage.  Just one.  Even the DOT guys who hold a sign on the side of the road are making twice the minimum wage.  A private (E-1) in the Army makes about $18,000 a year in salary with room/board and medical covered for free.  Each of these workers made a choice at some point.  There is a reason why people work for the government:  they get paid more than their civilian counterparts.

Lazy people? Not the mentally ill who have no ability to get the proper follow up treatment and medication due to a lack of family support and a skeletal crew staffing public social service agencies? Not minority populations who after centuries of oppression were expected to suddenly become a fully productive segment of society? Not people who lost there jobs due to the culture of corporate greed that lead to a society where the CEO of a company can make up to 400 times as much as the average worker? Not people who had the simple misfortune to be born in economically depressed area's and never learned many of the life lessons you and I take for the granted? Those are the people that are causing the nations woo?

I'm curious which urban area has a 'good transit system.' Oh, and let's not forget that many of the people who abuse the ED (the bulk of my patient population) don't have access to healthcare any other way. The fact that you reference 'fruit fly research' as an example of pork barrel spending shows you lack a complete understanding of how research, science, and educations works in the world.

Since you speak from an emotional reaction to my statements, I will respond logically and factually:

I was speaking to the lazy people alone, you know the ones who are too lazy to wake up every morning and go to work.  Those who refuse to work at a fast food joint because it is "below them." 

The mentally ill are considered disabled and as such are treated that way and I do not consider them lazy. 

The minority populations were fully productive segments of society (actually more so than the people who were oppressing them) before so I don't know where you are going with that argument (regardless, I do not consider them lazy rather the opposite because most work harder than the average American). 

There were two types of people who lost their jobs due to corporate greed:  those who went looking for new jobs and those who did not.  My uncle was a carpenter and when he was laid off from his job, he refused to go back to work because he was making more money on unemployment than by going back to work (I consider him lazy and a drain on society and told him as such). 

Those who were born in economically depressed areas tend to be hard-working and hardy folks and I do not consider them lazy either.

If you have not seen a good transit system, try taking a trip to Portland or Seattle.  Let's not forget either that most transit systems will put you within walking distance of your workplace.  Oh, and so you don't forget the people that abuse the ED (also the bulk of my patient population), they don't need to go to the ED for the common cold or because they have a hangnail.

Now, you want to attack me personally by saying that I lack a complete understanding of how science and research work:  the government spent almost $1 million dollars to determine that male fruit flies are attracted more to younger female fruit flies.  How about $350,000 on research showing that golfers putt better when they imagine the hole to be larger than it actually is?  How about the research into WoW and its effect on old people?  The list goes on and on.  Are you honestly telling me that that is valid research that we need to be conducting right now?  Do we need to be spending this money at all?

We need to get away from our culture of have all you want and someone else will pay for it.  We also need to have everyone pay their fair share.  Unfortunately, this system is corrupt and broken and so we will probably see things just continue to get worse.  C'est la vie....

[LTC Don]

In short, yes I would support the government shutting down.  I understand that government furloughs are not going to help the debt situation at all.  Even if we shut down the whole government for a month, it wouldn't do anything to help our current debt situation.  Having said that, we all know that the whole government is NOT going to shut down thus my lack of concern.  There are critical areas of the government that will continue to run.  Shutting down the ENTIRE government would quite simply cause chaos and wreak havoc upon the economy.

If there are government families accruing more debt because their salaries are reduced by furloughs, perhaps they are living beyond their means.  Like I said, there are things that people NEED (food, shelter, water) and there are things that people WANT (cell phones, big screen TV's, cable/satellite dishes, internet access, boats).  Reducing your expenses to meet your income is part of balancing your budget. 

There are lots of government workers who are simply WAY overpaid for their services.  The government needs to perform an audit on itself and see where the waste is.  We need to eliminate portions of the government that are not Constitutionally mandated.  Most of us can name a bunch of government programs that could be put on hold or eliminated in an effort to restore us to a manageable financial situation (F-35...).  Government spending is beyond WAY out of control.    Our social and economic policies have led to expenses that are not necessary or prudent (i.e. the war on drugs, government funding for abortions, fruit fly research).  For the most part, our politicians deserve far less than what we are paying them.  If we do not get a handle on our spending, this country will fall when China comes asking for their money....

FIFY 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I can tell you this, the UNION is why you get High Paid, Lazy Government employees. Trust me there are numerous employees that barely skate by because they know with a governmwnt job they are set, and will not get fired because of the UNION. IMO Unions in the Government is an Oxy Moron.

Then you are sadly misinformed.

At the risk of further drift, I can tell you that years ago I was one of those UNION employees at the State level.

I was an intake counsellor for a state welfare agency.  I was the first person that people off the street talked to.  For every one gaming the system, I saw a heck of a lot more people who are truly needy.

Those families have to live with their decisions.  I know how much diapers, formula, and clothes cost because I made the decision to have kids.  My family has been going about it on our own with NO government assistance. 

YET.

That having been said, I challenge you to show me a government worker who works for minimum wage.  Just one. 

Does $7 and change an hour about 20-odd years ago count?  BTDT.

Since you speak from an emotional reaction to my statements, I will respond logically and factually:

It is not possible for a human being to speak completely logically and factually, because none of us can detach from our emotions and preconceptions.  Your use of the word "lazy" shows that.

The mentally ill are considered disabled and as such are treated that way and I do not consider them lazy. 

Thanks for your largesse...I struggle with such an "unseen illness" every day of my life, and when someone tries an "armchair diagnosis" of me I am often not pleasant.

(I consider him lazy and a drain on society and told him as such). 

I'm sure that did wonders for you and your uncle's relationship.  Had I told one of my uncles that, I probably would have been searching for new dental work.

Unfortunately, this system is corrupt and broken and so we will probably see things just continue to get worse.  C'est la vie....

Which nicely brings me back to CAP, thank you!

I have been struggling with whether or not to remain in CAP, for a myriad of personal reasons, among them being the fact that I am disabled and on a fixed income, and my wife does not make a mint at her job.  The "Come And Pay" aspect is getting harder to fulfill, so I don't know where it's going to go.

If McCain were really serious about rooting out waste in DoD, and personally I doubt that he is except for his vendetta against CAP, maybe we would have less "Come And Pay."

[Private Investigator]

McCain is just a typical politician. I do not care if he is a Veteran I have disliked him since 1989. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keating_Five

[stillamarine]

Just left the ALWG Conference. BG Vasquez was there. He gave a very interesting briefing on the possibility of future opportunities for CAP.  One that I think this forum would be interested in SECAF would like to see the part time USAF Aux gone. He wants us full time Aux. He wants us utilized more. Lots of potential missions coming up including something similar to the JROTC and the middle school program but in high schools.

[Duke Dillio]

While I agree that some unions do breed "slugs,"  there are a wide variety of good and poor unions (I work for one).  The poor unions have a political agenda and focus mostly on making money for their members.  This is not what the unions were originally created for and business has done a very good job of twisting the unions into money-hungry organizations.

As for more pork:  In my town, they recently built "low-income housing" off of a government grant for minority farm workers.  These apartments are much nicer than any other apartment units in the area by far.  One of my friends (a local firefighter) applied for an apartment there and was told he did not qualify because he made too much money ($25,000).  So, he had to settle into a rental house paying $750 a month versus the $300 a month apartments.  To make things worse, shortly after these apartments opened, satellite dishes appeared everywhere on the property with the new tenants who (oh by the way) are driving BMW's, Hummers, Excursions, and Escalades.

CyBorg, in 1993 the federal minimum wage was $4.61 so at $7 and change, you were making almost twice the minimum.  I use the term "lazy" for those who are that:  lazy.  Like the guys who stand at the side of the road and panhandle for beer money.  Like the women who keep popping out kids so they can have a steady government check coming in and they don't have to work (presumably because they have to "take care of their children" who are later arrested for violent crimes because they weren't taught any better.)  As for my uncle, he needed a kick in the butt to motivate him to find something other than public assistance.

As for McCain, he is not a typical politician.  He grew up with a silver spoon in his rear.  His father was an Admiral which allowed him to walk on to a commission from the Naval Academy.  He spent time as a POW in Vietnam which I can assure you altered his mental status.  I wouldn't trust him farther than I could throw him but if you read his statements, it appears less a personal vendetta as it is a move to fund CAP through other means, kindof like shifting the shells around.  I think everyone needs to stop overreacting to things that we simply cannot affect.  If Congress wants to remove our funding, they will do so whether we like it or not.  Just like they shoved a healthcare bill down our throats.

[RiverAux]

One that I think this forum would be interested in SECAF would like to see the part time USAF Aux gone.

Interesting, but I have a hard time seeing them fight to get that federal law changed.  From a practical point of view I never saw anything of consequence happen after the current status was implemented anyway. 

[Fubar]

Just left the ALWG Conference. BG Vasquez was there. He gave a very interesting briefing on the possibility of future opportunities for CAP.  One that I think this forum would be interested in SECAF would like to see the part time USAF Aux gone. He wants us full time Aux. He wants us utilized more. Lots of potential missions coming up including something similar to the JROTC and the middle school program but in high schools.

That is some very interesting information. I wonder what the BOG thinks of the SECAF's preferences....

[stillamarine]

Just left the ALWG Conference. BG Vasquez was there. He gave a very interesting briefing on the possibility of future opportunities for CAP.  One that I think this forum would be interested in SECAF would like to see the part time USAF Aux gone. He wants us full time Aux. He wants us utilized more. Lots of potential missions coming up including something similar to the JROTC and the middle school program but in high schools.

That is some very interesting information. I wonder what the BOG thinks of the SECAF's preferences....

Well I know the CV was excited about it. I felt like I was at church the way he was preaching.

[RiverAux]

Just left the ALWG Conference. BG Vasquez was there. He gave a very interesting briefing on the possibility of future opportunities for CAP.  One that I think this forum would be interested in SECAF would like to see the part time USAF Aux gone. He wants us full time Aux. He wants us utilized more. Lots of potential missions coming up including something similar to the JROTC and the middle school program but in high schools.

That is some very interesting information. I wonder what the BOG thinks of the SECAF's preferences....

Technically, it doesn't matter what the BoG thinks.  The BoG is a creature of the federal law authorizing CAP and they could be eliminated or changed in the same manner as AuxOn/Off. 

Realistically though I can't see the AF trying to make any major changes on this front so soon after the BoG has asserted real control over CAP for the first time. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Interesting, but I have a hard time seeing them fight to get that federal law changed.

Especially given the "corporate" element within us who like us as distant from the AF as possible.

[JoeTomasone]

Just left the ALWG Conference. BG Vasquez was there. He gave a very interesting briefing on the possibility of future opportunities for CAP.  One that I think this forum would be interested in SECAF would like to see the part time USAF Aux gone. He wants us full time Aux. He wants us utilized more. Lots of potential missions coming up including something similar to the JROTC and the middle school program but in high schools.

AUX....  ON?

No OFF?

I just felt an odd disturbance in the Force...   

[Devil Doc]

I can tell you this, the UNION is why you get High Paid, Lazy Government employees. Trust me there are numerous employees that barely skate by because they know with a governmwnt job they are set, and will not get fired because of the UNION. IMO Unions in the Government is an Oxy Moron.

Then you are sadly misinformed.

At the risk of further drift, I can tell you that years ago I was one of those UNION employees at the State level.

I was an intake counsellor for a state welfare agency.  I was the first person that people off the street talked to.  For every one gaming the system, I saw a heck of a lot more people who are truly needy.

Those families have to live with their decisions.  I know how much diapers, formula, and clothes cost because I made the decision to have kids.  My family has been going about it on our own with NO government assistance. 

YET.

That having been said, I challenge you to show me a government worker who works for minimum wage.  Just one. 

Does $7 and change an hour about 20-odd years ago count?  BTDT.

Since you speak from an emotional reaction to my statements, I will respond logically and factually:

It is not possible for a human being to speak completely logically and factually, because none of us can detach from our emotions and preconceptions.  Your use of the word "lazy" shows that.

The mentally ill are considered disabled and as such are treated that way and I do not consider them lazy. 

Thanks for your largesse...I struggle with such an "unseen illness" every day of my life, and when someone tries an "armchair diagnosis" of me I am often not pleasant.

(I consider him lazy and a drain on society and told him as such). 

I'm sure that did wonders for you and your uncle's relationship.  Had I told one of my uncles that, I probably would have been searching for new dental work.

Unfortunately, this system is corrupt and broken and so we will probably see things just continue to get worse.  C'est la vie....

Which nicely brings me back to CAP, thank you!

I have been struggling with whether or not to remain in CAP, for a myriad of personal reasons, among them being the fact that I am disabled and on a fixed income, and my wife does not make a mint at her job.  The "Come And Pay" aspect is getting harder to fulfill, so I don't know where it's going to go.

If McCain were really serious about rooting out waste in DoD, and personally I doubt that he is except for his vendetta against CAP, maybe we would have less "Come And Pay."

Cyborg, I am not knocking ALL Unions. At my place of governemt employment, we are in the news just about once a week. I can tell you, i have been here almost 2 years, and have seen it all. How can someone were I work, be here 15+ Years, and constantly dosnt work, skate, and does not care about the job but for a paycheck, how are they still here? I tell you why, the UNION. You tell me how Unions are good for the work place, and i will tell you how they are bad. IMO Unions are pointless, they have there own agendas, and unless your buddy buddy with them, you left out cold.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Cyborg, I am not knocking ALL Unions. At my place of governemt employment, we are in the news just about once a week. I can tell you, i have been here almost 2 years, and have seen it all. How can someone were I work, be here 15+ Years, and constantly dosnt work, skate, and does not care about the job but for a paycheck, how are they still here? I tell you why, the UNION. You tell me how Unions are good for the work place, and i will tell you how they are bad. IMO Unions are pointless, they have there own agendas, and unless your buddy buddy with them, you left out cold.

I am not going to convince you, so it is pointless to do so.

Perhaps the fact that I am the son of a Teamsters steward and grandson of a UAW steward, both of whom worked HARD at what they did, colours my perception ever-so-slightly.

[Devil Doc]

To agree to Disagree, If you look in Modern Society, it shows that Unions do not have the pull they used to. Yes Teamsters and UAW are very good unions. In fact, they are the classic example of great unions. As a government employee, why do we need a union? Most of the Union has there own agenda, makes decisions, and does things without your agreement, so how do they help me? It is a known fact, that the UNION is the reason why the government is is disrepair. You have a SO and SO who been working for 15 plus years, knows there set because they have a govnt job, buddy buddy with the union, they can get away with murder. Then you have Mr. New Guy, works 3 times as hard, willing to learn, smiles, nice to everybody, Part of the Union, but not buddy buddy. Comes late to work once, then gets fired? How is that justice?

[♠SARKID♠]

McCain is talking on C-SPAN 2 right now.

http://www.c-span.org/Live-Video/C-SPAN2/

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

To agree to Disagree...

This is why I usually keep mum about my political leanings in a CAP context.

[♠SARKID♠]

McCain is talking on C-SPAN 2 right now.

http://www.c-span.org/Live-Video/C-SPAN2/

Copy of the audio
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B2eEV9kYf19lVU9obzFnLTNhX3c/edit

[smithwr2]

In my opinion, McCain is die-hard pro-military, but I'm not sure if he understands how to really attack wasteful spending.  Perhaps he failed to read the GAO report citing CAP as an efficient resource that should be used *more* as a solution that would otherwise require expensive military resources.  Hurricane Sandy?

Oh wait... actual cost-savings for the taxpayer might go against a prime directive of preserving at any expense the military brigade exercises, helicopter maintenance, 17000 weapons, tuition assistance, submarines, etc.   

He couldn't even get the name of the "Pork Program" correct.  "Civil Air Program"?  How embarassing.  Does this guy know what he's talking about?

In my opinion McCain seems like the type of guy to eliminate, for example, funding of American Red Cross and Salvation Army, and then transfer those duties to the military/guard.  He is an old school 'military solution' thinker.  He trots out the old whipping horse when convenient.  He doesn't understand the new world of using local volunteer and local community spirit to provide services to local communities.  If McCain had his way, the military would take care of all things good and right, we would receive our room and board from military assignment, and be eating MRE rations issued to us.  And we would be thankful to our masters.

Actually, I prefer a society where military/big government has its role, and community-based volunteer organizations have their role, and there is balance.

Cutting the differential in funding requested for CAP (what was it, $11 million or something?) is shortsighted on McCain's part.