Changing Civil Air Patrol to U.S. Civil Air Patrol

[MIKE]

Seriously...there was no real mentioned reason for this?  Why do I have a feeling it was Vanguard's idea?   

It sure sounded like it was Maj Gen Pineda's idea...

[RiverAux]

You know, we might have seen this coming.  The new command patch has Civil Air Patrol then US in small letters.  I never even thought of looking at it as essentially renaming us to US Civil Air Patrol.  Thought it was a reference to the overseas patch. 

However that is a bit different than this change. 

[JC004]

Maybe it's a secret plot and we're gonna invade Canada or something.  Is the General buying these? 'cuz I'm not real happy with Vanguard and the whole 7 bucks in shipping gets on my nerves.

[Becks]

You know, we might have seen this coming.  The new command patch has Civil Air Patrol then US in small letters.  I never even thought of looking at it as essentially renaming us to US Civil Air Patrol.  Thought it was a reference to the overseas patch. 

However that is a bit different than this change. 

Good catch on the patch, you may be right.

[Psicorp]

And what... this set's us apart from all the other Civil Air Patrol's out there?

Cause ya know, I'd hate to get confused with the Canadian and Mexican Civil Air Patrol's. 

Or worse, the Guatamalan Civil Air Patrol 

[NIN]

The Army Brigade of the ACA recently changed their branch tapes from "ARMY CADETS" to "U.S. ARMY CADETS"

[PhoenixRisen]

There actually is another Civil Air Patrol out there.  AUSCAP.

Good thing we got that changed, then.  Don't want to get mixed up and confused next time we are working with the Australian CAP.

Oh, we definitely would not.   

I just recieved an e-mail from the CAWG/CC (wing email lists), which says

The 2007 winter National Board meeting has concluded.  And yes, there are some uniform changes coming.  Look for my complete notes within the week.

[Nick Critelli]

RiverAux

Actually while it is a d/b/a,  CAP owns the trademark/name.

For the rest of you,  it's not Vanguard.l I told you why and how it came about.     Read the above posts.

[RiverAux]

75% against this idea with 40 votes in so far.  That is a pretty good-sized sample from this board compared to some other recent polls.  Granted I don't know how representative we are of CAP in general, but that is still a fairly strong repudiation of the idea.   

[JC004]

The Army Brigade of the ACA recently changed their branch tapes from "ARMY CADETS" to "U.S. ARMY CADETS"

At least they've got the space to work with.  They're gonna end up sticking this on two lines or continuing it on the back of the uniform.     Might fit fine on my uniform but the wee cadets? 

Wait! Idea!  Can't we have an AUX ON/AUX OFF tape instead?!  Kidding...don't hurt me.  ::hides::

[MIKE]

Coming soon:  Scrolling Marque branch tapes. 

[RiverAux]

This should eliminate the present confusion that the press, state and local government have  that CAP is a state based organization, e.g. Iowa Civil Air Patrol, New York Civil Air Patrol, etc. 

Funny, the Minnesota National Guard is a state-based organization, funded primarily by the federal government, but available for state missions, but liable to be called to federal service.  That is a much more complicated relationship than CAP has with any state, but yet people have wrapped their heads around it. 

We're still going to be calling ourselves with New York Wing of the Civil Air Patrol when talking with folks, not the NY Wing of the US CAP.   So, I don't think this will eliminate any minimum amount of confusion that might be out there.

Maybe the long term plan is to eliminate the association of Wings with states.  i.e., no more New York Wing.  Maybe be the 3rd Wing of the US Civil Air Patrol.  That would fit in with the elimination of Wing patches. 

[DNall]

The Army Brigade of the ACA recently changed their branch tapes from "ARMY CADETS" to "U.S. ARMY CADETS"

That makes more sense though, as it is in line with their parent (even if not formally their parent). The equiv for us would be chaning to "USAF Auxiliary"

Doing Business As
Nick, The law difrentiates us from other 501c3 corps is a couple ways. It specifically names the org for one. They've talked about chaing it to "USAF Auxiliary" (like CG Aux) or something along those lines in the past, but the govt response when exploring permission for BDUs has been that it requires congressional action to allow us to dba anything other than "Civil Air Patrol" or appropriate abbreviations thereof. I guess you can make the argument that "US Civil Air Patrol" fits into that, but it's not really appropriate.

It's interesting that Nick brings that up though. We haven't pursued that formal change in the past. A dba is formal paperwork (in this case w/ the fed govt) that says we will legally also be known as whatever. I think it would be interesting for us to file a letter of intent with the commerce dept (?) with copy to teh HASC stating...

"Congress limited the status of CAP as an instermentaility of the US Air Force in 2000, but the side effect was to further strain & distance essential relationships which allow us to serve our parent organization, and which in return provide for accomplishment of Congressionally mandated missions. As such, CAP seeks to dba "US Air Force Auxiliary," and appropriate abbeviations thereof, usage in conccurance with the discression of the SAF, federal law, and AF regulations. Specific example of usage would be to change BDU uniform tapes to read "USAF Auxiliary" similiar to those used by the US Coast Guard Auxiliary. While no specific Congressional action is necessary to authorize this change, it is desirable that endorsement by the committee or enshrinement in the FY08 budget be accomplished and instructions provided to the SAF to establish appropriate rules for usage, and that a copy of such policies be provided the committee. This change in no way changes the status of CAP as an instermentality of the Air Force, nor would it accompany any increased liaibility or legal entanglement. The status of the CAP Corporation as established by Congress in 1948 & changed in 2000 remains unaffected."

Yes that would be very interesting. It targets AF's chief argument for why we can't use that name more fully. It may well cause a discussion of the corporate status & level of independence, and of utilization. That's all real good things.


Couple other items...
1) 53k members X 1.5 tapes X ~$2.50 = $200,000 cost to membership.

2) It was mentioned that this would knock down the usage of Iowa CAP, Texas CAP, etc. That is not the case. Those are always misquotes of someone saying the Texas Wing of Civil Air Patrol responded today, yada yada. It is always the Texas National Guard, but if you look at their tapes, they say US Air Force or US Army, just exactly like federal troops. This change to "US Civil Air Patrol" on the tapes & releases will in no way effect that wing centric thinking & usage. If you wanted to accomplish that, you should do away with the state name in the Wing title. Go back to our first two didgets & make it the 42nd Wing of Civil Air Patrol, which just happens to be geographically the state of Texas. I don't now why they didn't do that in the first place.

[Major Carrales]

Coming soon:  Scrolling Marque branch tapes. 

That was just FUNNY!!!  I nearly woke the baby laughing at that one!!!

[PhoenixRisen]

2) It was mentioned that this would knock down the usage of Iowa CAP, Texas CAP, etc. That is not the case. Those are always misquotes of someone saying the Texas Wing of Civil Air Patrol responded today, yada yada. It is always the Texas National Guard, but if you look at their tapes, they say US Air Force or US Army, just exactly like federal troops. This change to "US Civil Air Patrol" on the tapes & releases will in no way effect that wing centric thinking & usage. If you wanted to accomplish that, you should do away with the state name in the Wing title. Go back to our first two didgets & make it the 42nd Wing of Civil Air Patrol, which just happens to be geographically the state of Texas. I don't now why they didn't do that in the first place.

Off topic, but is there anywhere you can find out what 'number' your own wing is, if it doesn't say on your patch?  (As is the case for CAWG.)

[DNall]

The first two of your old 5-didget charter number, which is the order the wings were created in. I don't really know what Cali was, but there's plenty others around that could tell you.

[PhoenixRisen]

The first two of your old 5-didget charter number, which is the order the wings were created in. I don't really know what Cali was, but there's plenty others around that could tell you.

Thanks!

[SarDragon]

Actually, the digits (note spelling  ) were simply derived from an alphabetical listing of the states. The initial list was made prior to 1958, so Alaska and Hawai'i aren't numbered in sequence. Also, I don't remember where DC and PR fit in, either.

After doing a list, it looks like DCWG (actually National Capitol Wing) was in the original list, but I don't have enough info at hand to figure out PR. If someone from any one of these wings (RI, SC, SD, TN, TX, UT, VT, VA, WA, WV, WI, WY) could give me the old number, I can figure out the rest.

[Pumbaa]

Call me one for conspiracy theories...

Seems a lot of these uniform changes are now happening since the Vangaurd take over...  Anyone ever asks who has some controlling interest/ stake/ profit in that company?  I would really be questioning if it was a publically traded company.

Figure all name tapes are going to go to them..  As well as any other logo/ name type of wear... cha-ching!

Makes you go hmmmmmmmm.....

This is really getting to be a joke and a half... I've been back in CAP for a year now (was a 1970's kind of cadet) and I cannot get over the change after change, corrections to the changes.. blah...  Unless national pays for the change to the name tape, I am going to drop BDU wear all together.  I will go corporate grey all the time, no bling.. just the name tag.. oh yeah and 10 to 1 odds the greys are voted out by mid 08.

It comes down to this.. If the rank and file have no say, but have to pay, then they can vote with their pocketbook to a certain extent.  Go to the lowest common denominator in uniform.. That's the free blues for the cadets  (if you can get them.. my daughter is still waiting and it's been a year) and the cheapest corporate with minimal bling for Senior/ Officers, that would be either the greys with golf shirt or aviator.

No blues for the officers, no BDU's for anyone nada...

In a way this is like taxation without representation.  NB makes these changes to uniforms and my Hip National Bank (ie. wallet) takes a hit. 

Well I for one am really tiring of it and from what I am reading my feelings are not unique..

There are things we VOLUNTEERS can do outside of voting with their feet.  There are things we can do WITHOUT violating or disobeying orders/ policy..  However, it would take a unified effort and I think at this time the rank and file is a bit discombubulated to do anything of the sort..

Wish I was wrong...

In short, refuse to wear the BDU's (everyone) and Blues (seniors), only go with what is mandated and paid for (cadets), and cheapest with no bling (Seniors).  It's by the book, maybe when this happens the Wing Kings et al will wake up and start speaking up.

[DNall]

If someone from any one of these wings (RI, SC, SD, TN, TX, UT, VT, VA, WA, WV, WI, WY) could give me the old number, I can figure out the rest.

Tx is 42

Call me one for conspiracy theories...

Seems a lot of these uniform changes are now happening since the Vangaurd take over...  Anyone ever asks who has some controlling interest/ stake/ profit in that company?  I would really be questioning if it was a publically traded company.

You understand the are a primary AAFES supplier for the military, they are a huge company - I don't know of anyone in CAP that is billionaire enough to afford a controlling stake - of which CAP is tiny tiny tiny blip of a contract, which is why we are not a priority. The customer service is bad cause they are mostly a wholsaler & deal with individual customers a very small percentage of the time.

Figure all name tapes are going to go to them..  As well as any other logo/ name type of wear... cha-ching!

Of all the items you could change, name & branch tapes are the very least likely to go through Vanguard.

This is really getting to be a joke and a half... I've been back in CAP for a year now (was a 1970's kind of cadet) and I cannot get over the change after change, corrections to the changes.. blah... 

It is frustrating, but CAP is going through a time of significant change now as we accept the 2000 & pos-9/11 environment & as we further approch the decline of ELT work, and in the wake of a retention catastophe.

It comes down to this.. If the rank and file have no say, but have to pay, then they can vote with their pocketbook to a certain extent.  Go to the lowest common denominator in uniform.. That's the free blues for the cadets  (if you can get them.. my daughter is still waiting and it's been a year) and the cheapest corporate with minimal bling for Senior/ Officers, that would be either the greys with golf shirt or aviator.

Free uniforms are not guranteed to any cadet, but they do the best they can. Suppliers have been too short of items to AAFES over the last year so they couldn't suppliy us & AF at the same time. The issue is supposed to be resolved by April. Your Sq CC or CDC sshould be able to see the status of the order on eServices & can check up on it if it hasn't been recieved.

Generally a member needs a service uniform (blues or white over gray or blue), and a utility uniform of BDU or BBDU. Your Sq should specify UOD & rotate between the two as appropriate. Anyway, they won't feel your protest. They aren't efected by teh profit motive at Vanguard, who takes a hit everytime some new item is created or old item is cut. However, most items that can be ordered elsewhere are. Where they make their bang for the buck is on distinctive insignia.

In a way this is like taxation without representation.  NB makes these changes to uniforms and my Hip National Bank (ie. wallet) takes a hit. 

I share your frustration, but if people just stop wearing BDUs, NB will assume it's cause they don't like them & they'll cut the uniform. They are actually very responsive to membership on uniform items, that's where all this came from. The problem is they don't listen or take that information in any kind of organized way, rather they hear some snippet that catches their attention for a fleeting second & that becomes the will of the people in their mind. They are good intentioned people that try hard to placate members. They actually think they are making changes that improve morale & rentention, that's why they are making them in fact. They're just out of touch with the field is all.