Force protection and armed CAP members

[tdepp]

^From the mouths of cadets. . .  :clap: Well said.  Don't see how our missions require us to carry weapons.  If you want to carry a guy, join the military, LE, or a shooting club.  And there's that whole federal Posse Comitatus Act thing to contend with as well.

[High Speed Low Drag]

First, let me say that I do not think there is any need for open carry. Period.

However, I chose the option that LEO should be allowed to carry concealed.  A couple of points.

First, in 2004,  Congress passed the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act, which provide that AD and retired certified law enforcement officers may carry a concealed weapon anywhere in the country irrespective of any local or state law to the contrary. (18 USC 926B, 926C)  By CAP regulations, a police officer who can carry anywhere in the country cannot carry in CAP uniform.

Second, LEOs have a “duty to act.”  Before I moved to Arkansas,  I was a police officer in Missouri, which has a specific law that says that a LEO must act in their capacity if there is a threat to life – on or off-duty.  Additionally, civil case law in several jurisdictions has held officers negligent if they fail to act while off duty to protect life.

Third, during my 18 years as a police officer, there have been many times that I have been recognized by people that I have arrested.  Of those, twice I had a suspect try to take physical action against me (while I was off-duty in civilian clothes).  I was also confronted as I was walking to the door of my apartment, while in CAP uniform after a meeting, by a narcotics suspect who knew me to be a police officer.  I tried to de-escalate the situation, however the suspect continued to escalate it & I was forced into a position where I had to make an arrest, while in CAP uniform.  I later found a .380 in his pocket.  I caught some flak from my dept. for being unarmed.  Our squadron is within my city, we do functions within my city.  What’s to prevent this from happening again?  I am aware of Posse Comitatus angle.  However, when I acted, I was acting as a sworn police officer under the authority of state law, not as part of my CAP duties.
 
I can see where some would say that it would cause a conflict if something were to arise from the LEO performing CAP duties, but I am sure with the great legal minds would iron out the details.  Also, remember that regs already allow for carry by those that are required by law.  Who is to say that one of those that are already carrying in uniform won’t (or haven’t) had a similar situation?

I would not want to see anyone not an LEO carry – simple safety.  LEOs are trained “from Day One” in the use of lethal force.  They are keenly aware of the ramifications and legalities.  Also, (key point) they are trained to de-escalate whenever possible.   They are far less likely to resort to deadly force than someone that has only a conceal carry license (BTW – I am in favor of CCW laws).

Having a LEO carry a concealed weapon would have a negligible effect on CAP, while allowing the LEO to protect themselves or others.

[flyboy53]

Are you guys serious?

Arming CAP members would really ratchet up the insurance liability issues we already face due to miships and accidents. Besides, we're supposed to be doing non-combat missions. Although we are not in a combat theater of operations, that would certainly change the playing field with us.

I do, however, see no reason why CAP members can't TRAIN on firearms under the supervision of an authorized instructor...

[JoeTomasone]

I do not agree with anyone other than current/retired LEOs carrying, and I would want it to be concealed carry.

[dhon27]

I would just note that CAPR 900-3 already provides that a member may carry firearms on his/her person when required to do so by law provided he/she has a written statement of proof of such requirement signed by the Wing Commander.  So if you are legally required to carry, there is already a provision in the existing reg that would cover that situation.  However, I am admittedly uncertain as to what is the usual basis for a LEO being required to carry off-duty (i.e. if it is statutory or departmental/agency policy).  Perhaps some LEO's here can provide some insight on this point.

[Rotorhead]

The day I feel I need a spare tire is the day I stop driving.

Firearms are nothing more than another tool in the toolbox.

I've carried for nearly 30 years.  Saved my hide 2x.

Glib, but needing a spare tire and the feeling that you may have to shoot someone are two different things.

I always find it amusing that people who carry have had "x" times they've needed one, but people who don't (like me) have never experienced that "need."

[heliodoc]

Nothing wrong with CAP Training with weapons with some with supervision

But CAP volunteers ..C'mon armed CAP?  What we got the training to make arrests and act like LEO's?

Like High Speed's mentions and the Federal Posse Commitatus Act.  CAP now ready to circumvent that?

Next thing you know we'll have CAP  SM and cadets attending SAREX's at the OK Corrall...

Hasn't there been a number of threads like this one and the CAP helicopters that keep re occurring quarterly, here?

[N Harmon]

In my neck of the woods there isn't a whole lot of wildlife that would concern me enough to bring a gun with me into the woods. I do feel different about some other parts of the country and will not hike out into them without a weapon. So, I would have no problem with a properly trained senior member GTL/GTM keeping a sidearm in his/her pack to protect against wild animals in accordance with the laws of their jurisdiction, and think CAP regulations should be flexible in that regard.

This has nothing to do with posse commitatus, so let's please keep the conversation on point.

[Trung Si Ma]

Back in the late 70's, as a member of Alaska Wing, aircrew carried weapons as part of their survival gear – in compliance with both state law and a specific exemption to the CAPRs.  I carried mine in a shoulder holster under my flight jacket / vest and so did everyone that I knew who was an aircrew member at the time.  Remember that the survival gear is on your body and the camping gear is in the back of the aircraft.

CAP ground teams were not used in Alaska back then, so it was not an issue.

Since then, Alaska has changed the firearms requirement from being required under law to being a suggested part of the aircraft survival kit.  When up in Alaska (or Wyoming, Idaho, Western Montana, etc) I still carry a large caliber firearm when flying outside of the populated areas, but not when doing CAP stuff.

[Nick]

I am aware of Posse Comitatus angle.  However, when I acted, I was acting as a sworn police officer under the authority of state law, not as part of my CAP duties.

I'm in full agreement with that statement, under a certain condition.  If a situation presents itself to you as an off-duty LEO where you have no choice but to act while in uniform, CAP should not hinder your ability to do so.  However, comma, I would expect that those off-duty LEOs (usually new bucks) to not go out looking for stuff to get into... in other words, don't play cop until forced into it.

[jimmydeanno]

I'm wondering where there have been loosened gun restrictions over the last three years other than DC and Chicago (where they were banned, unconstitutionally).  None of the states in a 9 state radius of where I lived up until three months ago have had any changes in the last decade or so.

Heck, my "home" state is open carry.  Feel like walking down the downtown road with a 12 gauge slung over your shoulder?  Go for it.  No permits required for open carry and the state legislature specifically put language in the law on the permits for concealed carry.  14 days and you don't have a response from the police?  You can file suit.  Even the "reason" block on the application suggests that you just write "Self-defense."

I think that there has been a renewed interest in the carrying of firearms since about a year before the current President took office, but I can't say that I'd seen any news regarding states loosening changing their carrying laws to be more "friendly."

But, I don't think we need them as CAP members, despite some of the situations we could find ourselves in.  One of my (previous squadron's) cadets noted to me that the last SAREX they went on, they stumbled upon a meth lab.  Could have been bad, but wasn't (fortunately.)

[Major Lord]

A couple of things about the PCA:

The Posse Comitatus Act does not cover the Air Force, other then through the Air Forces' voluntary participation in it. CAP regularly participates in Law Enforcement under the direction of Police Agencies in CN missions, making us "Police Agents" while so engaged. There has not been a single prosecution of the Posse Comitatus Act in the United States. Congress can carve out any exception they want, and they have done so many times. Anyone who has seen Wyatt Earp" knows about one of Americas largest gangs, the "Cowboys" ( who flew their red gang colors) The Federal Govt. exempted the Army from the PCA to cut the wind out of their Jibs, which they did reasonably well.

Many States require ( all that I know of in fact) that any person summoned by a Judge or Law Enforcement to come to their aid when so directed ( The Common law of Posse Comitatus, codified as "black letter" Statutory Law in California and other States) CAPR 900-3 seems to suggest that we are immune to this law by virtue of being members of CAP, although their is no exemption for us in law, and there are criminal penalties for failing to do so. Its an inherently un-American provision.

The Act of Militia makes any White Males between 14 and 45 members of the irregular militia, and when summoned to the aid of regular authorities, have  a legal obligation to do so. Many such civilian members of the Militia were used in this lawful capacity in such venues as the "New York Draft Riots", Modern America's largest civil insurrection.

Major Lord

[davedove]

The only time I could see this being justified is if the team were entering an area where it is likely the protection would be needed.

BUT, if such a situation were likely, it would seem to me that the leaders should take a serious look at risk assessment.  If it's likely that a firearm would be needed, should we really be taking a team into that situation, especially a team with cadets in it.

We often get carried away when we start thinking of what we can do, but the truth is that there are situations where we really should not be going.

[MichaelAGates]

A couple of things about the PCA:

The Posse Comitatus Act does not cover the Air Force, other then through the Air Forces' voluntary participation in it.

TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
PART I - CRIMES
CHAPTER 67 - MILITARY AND NAVY

Sec. 1385. Use of Army and Air Force as posse comitatus

Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly
authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses
any part of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus or
otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or
imprisoned not more than two years, or both.

[A.Member]

"Force protection"?   Really?!  ....Really?!   

[blackrain]

First, let me say that I do not think there is any need for open carry. Period.

However, I chose the option that LEO should be allowed to carry concealed.  A couple of points.

First, in 2004,  Congress passed the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act, which provide that AD and retired certified law enforcement officers may carry a concealed weapon anywhere in the country irrespective of any local or state law to the contrary. (18 USC 926B, 926C)  By CAP regulations, a police officer who can carry anywhere in the country cannot carry in CAP uniform.

Second, LEOs have a "duty to act."  Before I moved to Arkansas,  I was a police officer in Missouri, which has a specific law that says that a LEO must act in their capacity if there is a threat to life – on or off-duty.  Additionally, civil case law in several jurisdictions has held officers negligent if they fail to act while off duty to protect life.

Third, during my 18 years as a police officer, there have been many times that I have been recognized by people that I have arrested.  Of those, twice I had a suspect try to take physical action against me (while I was off-duty in civilian clothes).  I was also confronted as I was walking to the door of my apartment, while in CAP uniform after a meeting, by a narcotics suspect who knew me to be a police officer.  I tried to de-escalate the situation, however the suspect continued to escalate it & I was forced into a position where I had to make an arrest, while in CAP uniform.  I later found a .380 in his pocket.  I caught some flak from my dept. for being unarmed.  Our squadron is within my city, we do functions within my city.  What's to prevent this from happening again?  I am aware of Posse Comitatus angle.  However, when I acted, I was acting as a sworn police officer under the authority of state law, not as part of my CAP duties.
 
I can see where some would say that it would cause a conflict if something were to arise from the LEO performing CAP duties, but I am sure with the great legal minds would iron out the details.  Also, remember that regs already allow for carry by those that are required by law.  Who is to say that one of those that are already carrying in uniform won't (or haven't) had a similar situation?

I would not want to see anyone not an LEO carry – simple safety.  LEOs are trained "from Day One" in the use of lethal force.  They are keenly aware of the ramifications and legalities.  Also, (key point) they are trained to de-escalate whenever possible.   They are far less likely to resort to deadly force than someone that has only a conceal carry license (BTW – I am in favor of CCW laws).

Having a LEO carry a concealed weapon would have a negligible effect on CAP, while allowing the LEO to protect themselves or others.

I agree with most of your points. I'm especially glad you pointed out the need to de-escalate when at all possible. Anytime you launch a round down range you risk a great deal going wrong.

On the other hand what about those in the military? I knew for years it was only a matter of time before we would be targeted in the U.S. Being from Arkansas I know you are aware of the two soldiers outside the recruiting office and everyone remembers FT Hood. I think a member of the military who is qualified on the weapon should be allowed to carry anywhere (preferably concealed) (with the exception of places like jails or other high security facilities) I personally carried locked and loaded in a number of sensitive areas overseas and did so without a problem yet I'm restricted in my own country.

There are certain realities about the world that some don't accept. Bad guys don't care about laws and rules. 

As far as ground teams, as some have touched on,what happens when you accidently come across a pot grow and the grower when you're looking for something else? Those types take a dim view of being found.

Two things I do know......

Nothing spoils an assailant's aim like the ability to shoot back.

The first responder to any crime is the victim.

[MichaelAGates]

"Force protection"?   Really?!  ....Really?!   

Force Protection is a good idea. In the military it begins with the all military personnel taking a course, not everyone picking up a gun and carrying it each day. The course is even suggested for family members of military members.

https://atlevel1.dtic.mil/at/

Information to keep you from getting into situations that need a gun, is the first part of force protection.

[a2capt]

Combat Air Patrol? ;-)

Clear, Aim, Phire!

[ZigZag911]

Can anyone cite a single instance in CAP history (after WW2) in which there was a true need for CAP members carrying out their CAP functions to use firearms?

I've been around a LONG time , can't recall even hearing one as an 'urban legend'!

[vmstan]

Considering most states don't allow for open carry by anyone except LEO, and even then only when badge is visible, I'm not sure CAP passing a reg saying they can would really be beneficial to anyone except for those living in those places.

Fact check. http://www.opencarry.org/opencarry.html

Wow, I was not aware of that.

Still, I'm of the opinion that concealed carry is a much better idea than open carry.