Force protection and armed CAP members

[tsrup]

I don't know if it's already been asked but have there been incidents where CAP Members have been fired on or otherwise threatened with deadly violence?

NOTE: What follows is second hand information.

  Our wing apparently used to be more actively involved in CN than we are now, and I guess the guys on motorcycles (a real issue around mid august for those not aware of the unique issues that South Dakota has with biker gangs) who kept getting busted for drugs started noticing what airplanes were always overhead.  Simple asking around let them know where we all met, and threats started to be applied. 
Apparently we decided to back off of that mission set as the liability to our membership was too high.

Course the above could be all bs that is a likely scenario that just never happened. 

[Eclipse]

I generally consider them a secondary or ancillary support for the adult-rated teams who can actually self and supervise.

Slight threadjack, but why?  are their sqtr's different than ours?  It would be interesting to see what the differences are for "adult-rated" GTM badges and Cadet GTM badges..

Probably should have been just "adult".

I have high respect for our cadets, and don't really separate them in terms of abilities - the issues are practical and logistical. 
Most school-age cadets don't have there means or resources to pick-up mid-week without warning and go somewhere for a week.
The inability to be autonomous is a factor, but not one which should preclude their participation.

In my AOR, cadets probably make up at least half the ground people, but are a small presence in real missions.

[Eclipse]

I doubt that if someone goes postal that he/she will care what National has to say on the issue of firearms...  What happens when the sane CCW carrier neutralizes the threat and saves a squadron of cadets despite the regs.. "2b or not 2b".

He can frame his SMV next to his termination.

The random chance someone might be able to "hero" their way out of an unlikely situation is not something you use as the basis for policy.

[Stonewall]

No. Maybe it's because I'm a First Responder (and in EMT-B school), and therefore hate the idea of civilians (and most LEOs that I've met for that matter) carrying guns.

First: It is illegal for CAP to carry weapons under the Posse Comitatus Act while on AF Assigned Missions.

Second: Arming our GTs will ban cadets participating in Emergency Services, and we all know that cadets make up the backbone of CAP GSAR.
idiot geardo cadet killing himself.

And I might get this off my chest, I am against CCW and Open-Carry.

Maybe you should drop the EMT-B class and take some college classes on law, history, government and a few others.  Just a suggestion.

[ol'fido]

1. Don't think we need guns on missions or otherwise even though down here we may run missions where running into a pot patch, meth lab, or even a still is a distinct possibilty in So. IL.

2. Own several firearms and would probably get a CCW if IL had them. Hopefully, this time around the Chicago politicians won't derail the CCW legislation. But still....see point 1^^^.

3. Think the photos of WWII era aircrews with pistols on their hips are reallly cool.

4. Do we have any LEOs who are CAP members but whose departments MANDATE off-duty carry?

[Johnny Yuma]

Remember what I've said about NHQ, Incorporated in the past: NHQ, Inc's sole purpose is to protect no one but the organization, the corporate officers and employees from liability. NO ONE ELSE. The only reason we have a CCPT (albeit badly screwed up in relation to cadets over 18) is because people were suing CAP, Inc. over it.

Individuals protecting themselves on CAP missions or activities is a liability to NHQ, Inc., so the corporate line is to take the robbery/rape/kidnapping of cadets/murder and report it to a corporate officer for handling. They will determine if there was a robbery/rape/kidnapping of a cadet/murder committed and, once NHQ, Inc. is sufficiently insulated from liability, notify the authorities if NHQ, Incs lawyers believe it is prudent to do so.

Seriously: Someday we're going to hear about something bad happening at an activity, something that could have been stopped but wasn't. Someone's going to get hurt or worse. But it'll be okay that someone didn't have the tools to stop it because someone keeping a chair warm in Alabama said we were doing the right thing by letting it happen.

[Desert Dawg]

Here in southern Arizona the possibility of walking up on a group of smugglers is very real.  I am pretty sure those guys don't care if it is cadets or not that just surprised them, and they are going to do what ever necessary to get away.  I feel that I am responsible for the safety of any member of my team and under current regulations that is difficult.   Here in Arizona it is legal for anyone over 21 to carry a handgun in plain view.  You can get a CCW permit and carry concealed. Last Friday Gov. Brewer just signed into law that any one can carry concealed without a permit as long as they are 21.  I am a retired LEO and I find it to be very fustating that on a mission we are not given the opportunity to protect ourselves or others.

[heliodoc]

Well Desert Dawg

Welcome to the land of CAP frustration

As Johnny Yuma pointed out...CAP  Inc  is looking out for....wait for it..........ITSELF

Doesn't matter what a professional LEO has to say... AZ is real

CAP....well its a volunteer organization that ought to stay volunteer unless the pay and LE advances seriously in the next few years

In other words, if you are in CAP and run into the problems you got in AZ...Better cover your own fanny...PAPA CAP isn't in the business of covering us...no matter the Kool Aid being served on the respect it has for its members....got to read in between the lines....

Better to be in paid position carrying or thinking of carrying a weapon.  CAP??  It STILL a volunteer organization with arrest or LE powers

Maybe its safer that way!!! 

[heliodoc]

Let me clarify a fat finger

CAP ...No arrest or LE powers...

Sorry for Internet / finger interface malfunction...

[lordmonar]

I am opposed to open carry in a CAP uniform but am of the opinion that CCW should be allowed for people that are already legally able to carry. It's a proven fact that some whack jobs out in the world just want to kill "soldiers." Guess what, we look like them. That makes us a target whether we do anything to increase the danger or not. If it were allowed I would support a measure that would 2b anyone that pulls a weapon out in anything but a life threatening situation ie: you play with your piece, you're done.

I just don't want to deal with the liability.

When you walk into my doors you belong to me.  I have to balance the unknown dangers with the known dangers and make a judgement call.  And it will be my buttocks on the line if some unstable senior member decides to go postal at the squadron meeting....or more likely some guy who should never have been given a driver's license let alone a CCP accidentally shoots himself or one of my squadron members.

Don't get me wrong...got nothing against guns or CCPs.....I'm getting one too as soon as I get the cash....but during CAP time it goes into the glove box and remains there.

YMMV

I doubt that if someone goes postal that he/she will care what National has to say on the issue of firearms...
  What happens when the sane CCW carrier neutralizes the threat and saves a squadron of cadets despite the regs.. "2b or not 2b".

Give him the bronze star of valor and then 2b him. 

Again I said...Do we accept the know danger of people carrying guns at CAP functions because of the unknown danger of some random bad guy killing everyone.

As I said....I just don't want to deal with the liability.  Too many dip fecal matters out there who IMHO are not mature enough to carry a weapon.  But if this reg goes in what power would a commander have to make sure those who "should not" be armed are not in fact armed?

Do you see my Point?  It is not anti gun or that those who have them and carry them are nuts or a danger in and of themselves.....but we all know about those people who are just should not be armed due to lack of mature judgment.

[blackrain]

Hell if you're responsibly carrying then no one should know anyways... 

That pretty well says it all.............

[flyboy53]

Can anyone cite a single instance in CAP history (after WW2) in which there was a true need for CAP members carrying out their CAP functions to use firearms?

I've been around a LONG time , can't recall even hearing one as an 'urban legend'!

Yes, actually. You need to read up on the histories of the CAP's World War II anti-sub bases. There were armed guards that stood sentry duty and manned guard shacks and gates.

The difference, though, was a declared war and a CAP base that had bombs and depth charges.

Years ago (in the 1980s) the wing commander at an AF Reserve Base in Ohio allowed the CAP squadron and group members assigned there to be trained by CATM personnel and then allowed to fire M-16s at the base range. Some of those cadets and senior members fired expert and were authorized to wear the Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon....the highest ribbon they ever earned as CAP members. I was the base liaison at the time, so it's verified and for real.

However, that doesn't change my stand about arming us now. I can just see it now. Some guy shows up at a CAP meeting, armed to the nines, and making threats just because he didn't get a promotion or something.

Or what about the day that a weapon like that is mis-handled and someone gets a foot blown off....wouldn't want to write that safety report.

[Short Field]

Absolutely amazing that I survived an career in the Air Force without having to carry a weapon while flying missions in the US or while on bases and between bases  in the US.  Overseas and in the war zones, different story. 

Can anyone find ONE story about a CAP member being attacked, kidnapped, shot, etc, while on a CAP mission or at a CAP activity? 

[heliodoc]

Wait a few, Short Field

There will be obscure story about someone who knew somebody from somebody who knew somebody that was in / near/ by a CAP activity

[Ned]

Can anyone find ONE story about a CAP member being attacked, kidnapped, shot, etc, while on a CAP mission or at a CAP activity?

How about this one where a CAP cadet was shot and killed by a senior member with a .45.

Will that do?

[Rotorhead]

Here in southern Arizona the possibility of walking up on a group of smugglers is very real. 

Does that happen a lot?

Has it ever happened?

[cap235629]

Here in southern Arizona the possibility of walking up on a group of smugglers is very real. 

Does that happen a lot?

Has it ever happened?

This man was on his own property so this scenario is not far fetched at all:

Arizona Rancher found shot to death

[Short Field]

A prominent southeast Arizona rancher likely was killed by an illegal immigrant, but there's no evidence to suggest there was any confrontation that led to the shooting, authorities said Monday. ,,,, Cochise County Sheriff Larry Dever said Krentz was out checking water line and fencing on the land Krentz's family has ranched since 1907. Krentz had weapons with him in his all-terrain vehicle but didn't use them ,,, while investigators don't have a motive yet, retaliation has been raised as a possibility. The day before the shooting, the victim's brother, Phil Krentz, reported drug smuggling activity on the ranch to the Border Patrol.

Carryng a gun didn't help him.

[a2capt]

Hmmmm...

[smg id=157]

[flyboy53]

Can anyone find ONE story about a CAP member being attacked, kidnapped, shot, etc, while on a CAP mission or at a CAP activity?

How about this one where a CAP cadet was shot and killed by a senior member with a .45.

Will that do?

This WW II story is actualy WHY we shouldn't be armed. Leave force protection to the professionals.