Starting Anew -- How Should CAP Be Governed?

[Major Carrales]

I am a member of several 501(c)3 organizations and they all have ful time Executive Directors that run the day to day operations of theorganization and volunteer Presidents (or heads or whatever you want to call them). That just makes since.

Nah, dont like the idea.

That does not make sense for CAP based on our funding and structure. 

There is also an inherency issue at play here, we already have people being paid to run the day to day operations of Wings, Regions and National.

It would likely cost millions to pay all the Wing, Region and National volunteer staff.  Millions we don't have or, if we do, could better be spent elsewhere. 

[Major Carrales]

Question for the "compensated national commander" model?

How is that different than our current paid executive director?

Could we simply combine the two positions?

Why would we need two such people?  Would that not be the same as the woes we have seen with the NEC and NB?

It seems, that in trying to reinvent the wheel...at ALL COSTS...people are failing to remember the reasons for the reinvention.  You know, to streamline operations.  Thus calling into question the entire need for a change. 

Don't place the cart before the horse every time just because it seems to further your personal model for how CAP should work. 

[lordmonar]

The new employees would be tasked to RAISE FUNDS....that would pay for themselves.

Things would be stream lined...because all the politics would be eliminated.

[Major Carrales]

The new employees would be tasked to RAISE FUNDS....that would pay for themselves.

Things would be stream lined...because all the politics would be eliminated.

Really?  And unicorns and pixies will reach the purple sky at night.

Are you actually suggesting that your paid Wing Commanders would have to raise money for themselves?  That is akin to political "warchesting" at best and distracting lack of focus at best.  When are they supposed to raise this money?  When they are on "duty?"  And, since we are paying them to run a Wing, aren't they on duty 24/7...after all, aircraft crash at night too you know.  Do we also pay the Wing Vice-Commander, so he can fill in?  How about Group and Squadron Commanders? 

I can see it now...SUPPORT THE CIVIL AIR PATROL, USAF AUX bake sale.  HELP PAY OUR LEADERSHIP today...have a brownie!!!

Politics eliminated?  You actually think that inserting "money" into the mix would eliminate politics?

I am going to assume your last post was sarcasm.

[lordmonar]

The Boy Scouts, Salvation Army and Red Cross do this all the time.

[Major Carrales]

The Boy Scouts, Salvation Army and Red Cross do this all the time.

The Boy Scouts and the Salvation Army also have religious elements are part of their programs, "The Scout Oath: On my honor I will do my best, To do my duty to God and my country, and to obey the Scout Law; To help other people at all times; To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight."  and who could forget that "a scout is reverent." Should we also apply that to CAP.  I can see it now... "I pledge to serve MY GOD and NATION, faithfully in the Civil Air Patrol cadet program and to attend meetings regularly, attend MY CHURCH attentively, participate in unit activities, obey my officers wear my uniform properly, and advance my education and training rapidly to be of service to my community, state, CHURCH and nation so that the LORD may BLESS and KEEP us."

The Salvation Army is an international movement with evangelical overtones and part of the "universal" Christian Church. It has a quasi-military structure and was founded in 1865 in Britain.

Shall we also adopt that because it works for them so well?

The fact I am illustrating above is that just because something works well for other organizations; be it religious, financial or the like, does not necessary make it "good for CAP."

In fact, to prove that that is a specious argument, let me reverse the tables. 

I would go as far as to say that our model should be imposed on them.  It would free up monies for use in other sectors.  How can the Salvation Army claim to be a Christian organization , for example, if some of them get paid?  Ananias and Sapphira were indeed struck down by God for "holding out," should not they?  Thus, unpaid staff, like the Civil Air Patrol model should be applied.  After all, it works for us...and will save them from the fires of [darn]ation.

As for the Scouts...since "a Scout is Thrifty," should not the organization be as well?

While we are at it...and since RiverAux loves to do this.  Shouldn't the Coast Guard Auxiliary have a rank structure like CAP?  After all, they are the Coast Guard Auxiliary and it gets confusing trying to see who is what.  They should also follow our Corporate Structure as an Auxiliary of one of the Uniformed Services.  They should be allowed only polo shirts, since who needs all that protocol and they might get mistaken for a Coast Guard...or worse yet...US Naval Officer from a Different time period....perhaps even...THE FUTURE!!!

The above, of course, is completely ridiculous (and I do not believe in it)...but that is how I see the constant "They do it better than we, because we are CAP" paradigm.

[RiverAux]

Obviously if CAP didn't invent it, it isn't worth considering. 

[Major Carrales]

In all honesty there is no need for all this.  The status quo is not all that bad as you all make it out to be.

If people simply followed the established policies discussions like this one would be moot and unnecessary.

And, yes, I do get frustrated with this idea that "everyone else does it better because we are CAP and we suck." Ours works...only people keep diviating from the establsihed policies in everything from uniforms to the actions of leadership.

In all those such occasions they were wrong no matter the outcome, be it positive or negative.

[flyguy06]

I am a member of several 501(c)3 organizations and they all have ful time Executive Directors that run the day to day operations of theorganization and volunteer Presidents (or heads or whatever you want to call them). That just makes since.

Nah, dont like the idea.

That does not make sense for CAP based on our funding and structure. 

There is also an inherency issue at play here, we already have people being paid to run the day to day operations of Wings, Regions and National.

It would likely cost millions to pay all the Wing, Region and National volunteer staff.  Millions we don't have or, if we do, could better be spent elsewhere.

I said that I agree with you. I dont like the idea. I have been spending the day with my family ceebrating Christmas today.

[Major Carrales]

I am a member of several 501(c)3 organizations and they all have ful time Executive Directors that run the day to day operations of theorganization and volunteer Presidents (or heads or whatever you want to call them). That just makes since.

Nah, dont like the idea.

That does not make sense for CAP based on our funding and structure. 

There is also an inherency issue at play here, we already have people being paid to run the day to day operations of Wings, Regions and National.

It would likely cost millions to pay all the Wing, Region and National volunteer staff.  Millions we don't have or, if we do, could better be spent elsewhere.

I said that I agree with you. I dont like the idea. I have been spending the day with my family ceebrating Christmas today.

Merry Christmas...I was merely "piggy backing" your post.

[flyboy53]

In some respects, I would rather see CAP adopt some of the Coast Guard Auxiliary model. I'd like to see the funding side (the corporation) split away as a not-for-profit fundraising type of foundation and the line side run more like a military organization. Volunteer fire departments run this way.

Politics are in everything and electing officers is a good thing, but politics have ruined this origainzation. There needs to be greater accountability (by the Air Force) placed on CAP leadership.

Therefore, I'm in favor of  commander's and staff officers being boarded for selected for an assignment based on their merits and not who they know. I believe the Board of Governors needs to take a more active role and I think there needs to be a better alignment between the CAP as the Air Force Auxiliary and its parent service.

[High Speed Low Drag]

The thread got de-railed for a moment about funding.  In my original proposal, I showed that funding was optional.  The changes I proposed - in accordance withh Ned's original post of throwing out the book and "How should CAP be governed?" could be implemented with funding as-is currently. 

Obviously, I do believe we should have full-time, paid commanders, but I also understand that it would take a lot of work to implement that.  I think the N/CC should absolutely be the first paid command position, and then work its' way from there.  Again, that doesn't change the basis of the ideas I presented.  I really like what Maj. Carrales had written in another thread (regarding checks & balances specifically), along with others, and threw in a little of my research and flavoring.  Lordmonar addressed each item point by point, which was very interesting and furthered the discussion.  I would love to hear what more have to say along those lines, along with Ned, as he was the original poster.  I'm sure that many others have thoughts and improvements.

Personal Note:  I know that I may appear to be an idealist on these boards, but in actuality I am merely an optimist.  I am always thinking of ways things can be improved upon, for nothing is ever perfect.  (Fortunately that outlook enabled me to obtain a patent and provide a lucrative side job).  I know that the NB is not going to stand up at the next meeting and vote for "St. Pierre's Law," but if I can get somebody that has the power to affect change thinking, well, I am happy.

[flyguy06]

I think manyof you guys are much more knowledgeable about the inner workings of CAP than I am. You guys get deep into the weeds. I am just a volunteer that wants to make a difference. Many of you have actually sat down and taken time out to read the CAP Constitution and By laws. My time just doesnt permit me to do that. Maybe when i am older and retired I could find the time.


I just enjoy reaing the bantor onthis forum. But wow. you guys get deep with it. The politics, the by laws, the whole nine yards. I can only tell you what goes on at my localmeetings. Now I will bemoving up to wing HQ on Jan 1. I have noticed that it does start getting political at that level. But I will always be a Squadron guy at heart.

[Major Carrales]

I think manyof you guys are much more knowledgeable about the inner workings of CAP than I am. You guys get deep into the weeds. I am just a volunteer that wants to make a difference. Many of you have actually sat down and taken time out to read the CAP Constitution and By laws. My time just doesnt permit me to do that. Maybe when i am older and retired I could find the time.


I just enjoy reaing the bantor onthis forum. But wow. you guys get deep with it. The politics, the by laws, the whole nine yards. I can only tell you what goes on at my localmeetings. Now I will bemoving up to wing HQ on Jan 1. I have noticed that it does start getting political at that level. But I will always be a Squadron guy at heart.

Squadron is where the "rubber meets the road," during the Testingate scandal, I was the only one in my unit even aware of the "goings on" at National because I was actually in Atlanta.  The biggest issue in our unit at the time was preparing for an upcoming SARex.

When that whole affair was over, life went on and the only real difference was that we changed a photograph on the wall.

The point is, for all the hoop-la made here about scandals and big issues, the average CAP Officer, and much more so for cadets, are uninterested in that sort of thing.  The focus is on maintenance of aircraft, training, advancements and the like.  One might argue that that is where the focus should be anyway.

[flyguy06]

I think manyof you guys are much more knowledgeable about the inner workings of CAP than I am. You guys get deep into the weeds. I am just a volunteer that wants to make a difference. Many of you have actually sat down and taken time out to read the CAP Constitution and By laws. My time just doesnt permit me to do that. Maybe when i am older and retired I could find the time.


I just enjoy reaing the bantor onthis forum. But wow. you guys get deep with it. The politics, the by laws, the whole nine yards. I can only tell you what goes on at my localmeetings. Now I will bemoving up to wing HQ on Jan 1. I have noticed that it does start getting political at that level. But I will always be a Squadron guy at heart.

Squadron is where the "rubber meets the road," during the Testingate scandal, I was the only one in my unit even aware of the "goings on" at National because I was actually in Atlanta.  The biggest issue in our unit at the time was preparing for an upcoming SARex.

When that whole affair was over, life went on and the only real difference was that we changed a photograph on the wall.

The point is, for all the hoop-la made here about scandals and big issues, the average CAP Officer, and much more so for cadets, are uninterested in that sort of thing.  The focus is on maintenance of aircraft, training, advancements and the like.  One might argue that that is where the focus should be anyway.

I very much agree with you. the average member doesnt care about all the stuff up at National. Its what you said: the Sarex,the O rides, the encampments that is on their radar scope.

[NC Hokie]

I very much agree with you. the average member doesnt care about all the stuff up at National. Its what you said: the Sarex,the O rides, the encampments that is on their radar scope.

Members not caring about all the stuff up at National just might be why we're in this mess (CSU, questionable vehicle purchase, etc.) in the first place.

[Major Carrales]

I very much agree with you. the average member doesnt care about all the stuff up at National. Its what you said: the Sarex,the O rides, the encampments that is on their radar scope.

Members not caring about all the stuff up at National just might be why we're in this mess (CSU, questionable vehicle purchase, etc.) in the first place.

Which is why I have been maintaining that "radical" change of the type that has been proposed will not address the plethora issues that arise.

The fact is, the average CAP officer (or squadron commander for that matter) can only effect change and be affected by matters that occur at or near their sphere of influence.  Most units, unless somehow incurring the wrath of a Wing Commander, are never once visited by said officer nor have any dealings with said officer unless it is some unpopular policy move...to which the response is simply to vote with one's feet.

For some CAP Officers, the focus is on flying missions, organizing/facilitating Cadet Activities and filing required reports and might be hard pressed to name the Region or even National Commander. 

Not everyone is as connected as CAPTALK readers are...and, what's more, most do not wish to be with some citing CAPTALK as a larger threat than a rouge National Commander.  At least, they as  have told me, the National Commander can be fired...whereas the "rumor mills," producing as much "misinformation" and information, are endless.

[flyboy53]

Members not caring about all the stuff up at National just might be why we're in this mess (CSU, questionable vehicle purchase, etc.) in the first place.

I wouldn't blame the the guy or gal at the grassroots for the "TPU" or the problems with that National Commander, those are the ones who were the true victims in this mess. Most don't have a clue about the politics behind this origanization. At the same time, while this is a great forum for ideas and insight, the bottom line is that we are powerless to effect change.

[lordmonar]

I understand what you ar trying to say Major Carrales.....but the purpose of THIS thead is to come up with pipe dream ideas....not to solve any major isssues.

I think a the basic level...CAP does okay.....it could do better but it does okay.

By professionalizing (paying) wing/region/national commanders we could reap a lot of benifits.

We would eliminate the worst of the political BS that gives CAP a bad name.  We would have people working 5 days a week on CAP issues at the wing level.

The wing adminstrators and Executive Director have done a pretty good job....but they only handle the day to day paperwork.  They are not there to establish relationships with our ES partners.  They are not there to gland hand with sources of funding.  They are not there to visit subordniate units and make sure they are doing their jobs.

Sure it will cost a lot of money.
Sure it will not elminate all the political GOB BS.
Sure it would put a stop to some peoples dreams of being in charge.

But there will still be a lot of thing volunteers can do at wing/region/national level.
We will reap the benifit of full time local (state level) support for our opertions.
We can hire the best person for the job.....even if they are from out of state.....no more settleing for just who ever has time to do the job.

[NC Hokie]

Members not caring about all the stuff up at National just might be why we're in this mess (CSU, questionable vehicle purchase, etc.) in the first place.

I wouldn't blame the the guy or gal at the grassroots for the "TPU" or the problems with that National Commander, those are the ones who were the true victims in this mess. Most don't have a clue about the politics behind this origanization. At the same time, while this is a great forum for ideas and insight, the bottom line is that we are powerless to effect change.

I didn't mean to imply that the guy at the meeting was the one at fault.  The current system fosters an "I don't care" attitude at the lowest levels due to a lack of accountability and the difficulty in getting our voices heard at anything above the next level (group, wing, etc.).  Until these factors change, the guy at the meeting has no incentive to care about anything BUT his local squadron.