Honor Guard Academy 2013?

Started by Майор Хаткевич, December 05, 2012, 06:11:32 AM

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Майор Хаткевич

Heard today that there will not be an NCSA HGA this year? Anyone know if this is true/why?

Extremepredjudice

At the airport, (when leaving) a member of staff sat and talked to myself and a couple other cadets. He said NHQ wanted to shut HGA down.

Also, HGA isn't cost effective. The location is too expensive. The 500 activity fee barely pays for the room and board.

It was really noticeable that they didn't have enough money, even as a white hat. I picked up on it after the first few days.

Nothing concrete, though.
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Hanlon's Razor
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Майор Хаткевич

Not surprised if that's the reason, but it's still a shame.

I know at least one cadet in my unit was hoping to go next summer.

Eclipse

That's unfortunate, but in the long run this is something that would probably be better run on a Regional or even Wing level.

It would reduce the travel and lodging expenses and open it up to a wider group.

"That Others May Zoom"

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: Eclipse on December 05, 2012, 03:56:08 PM
That's unfortunate, but in the long run this is something that would probably be better run on a Regional or even Wing level.

It would reduce the travel and lodging expenses and open it up to a wider group.

Agreed, and that's how the NCSA began in the first place.

I know a few wings have strong HG programs (FL, MD, etc), but for the majority, the little drizzle to HGA was pretty much the pool of knowledge in the wing.

HGjunkie

HGA's been getting tighter and tighter on money each year, plus the $500 limit on cost isn't very affordable or sustainable.
Whether they actually closed it down is speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised.
••• retired
2d Lt USAF

Eclipse

Who establishes the limit on cost?

"That Others May Zoom"

Майор Хаткевич

If it's still a 2 week event, that's $250 / week and $36 per day with room and board and food. ON TOP OF THAT, your parents get camp for two weeks, and you get some cool cadet street cred/bling.

I'm not saying it's cheap, and it certainly wasn't for me which is why it was my first and only NCSA, but when I compare it to what my parents had spent for a silly day camp for my sister, that's a STEAL.

Back when I went in 2005, the cost for a white hat was $425 and returning cadets $225. Presumably the extra $200 covered the equipment the cadets get. I was thinking about applying for a second year, but unfortunately the cost had increased in 2006 closer to $500 no matter what year you were attending, so that as the end of it for me.


spaatzmom

Quote from: Eclipse on December 05, 2012, 03:56:08 PM
That's unfortunate, but in the long run this is something that would probably be better run on a Regional or even Wing level.

It would reduce the travel and lodging expenses and open it up to a wider group.


NHGA did start out as a MD wing activity.  It grew greatly as other cadets heard about it and requested admission to the academy.  Once it had a certain number of attendees from outside of the wing on a consistent basis, NHQ opened it as a NCSA, I believe in 2000 after being functional for at least 15 years.

Sadly it is not on the current list of activities, as are several other events, for 2013.

spaatzmom

Quote from: Eclipse on December 05, 2012, 06:30:31 PM
Who establishes the limit on cost?
.
the past and expected budget of the event.  When the cost of it went up for returning attendees, it was because of the increased cost of the facilities being used and the equipment needed.  Last year the amount of equipment received by white hats, first year, was cut dramatically due to the again vastly increased cost to purchase the equipment.

Eclipse

Understood, I took this:
Quote from: HGjunkie on December 05, 2012, 06:23:46 PMplus the $500 limit on cost isn't very affordable or sustainable. Whether they actually closed it down is speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised.
meant that there was an artificial cap on the activity fees and the event wasn't sustainable.

$500 today is nothing for two weeks of any kind meaningful activity, especially if it includes full room and board >and< equipment.

"That Others May Zoom"

spaatzmom

There was no imposed fee limit by NHQ.  I remember in the past, the flight academies and IACE fees were $800 and one that I can't remeber the name of was well past $1200.

The director would try to break even after accounting for donations from all over.  Unfortunately, those generous contacts dried up after the good Col. left to care for her now deceased husband.

HGjunkie

They wanted to raise the price from $500, but apparently NHQ kept them on a cap since they aren't NFA. Or that's what we were told.

HGA requires a ridiculous amount of money for equipment (Mark 1 rifles ain't cheap, especially since they're forced to get everything from Vanguard) and the college dorms are another huge chunk of money at approximately $450 per person, which leaves $50*120-something left over for necessary equipment, shirts, meals, yada yada etc.
••• retired
2d Lt USAF

Eclipse

We could host that at Great Lakes for $0 for the billeting, and about $150 for meals, with military parade decks and drill halls
within a 3-minute march, though a 2-week long event would be a challenge from a Navy supervisory perspective - not impossible, though.

"That Others May Zoom"

spaatzmom

Quote from: HGjunkie on December 05, 2012, 09:55:44 PM
They wanted to raise the price from $500, but apparently NHQ kept them on a cap since they aren't NFA. Or that's what we were told.

HGA requires a ridiculous amount of money for equipment (Mark 1 rifles ain't cheap, especially since they're forced to get everything from Vanguard) and the college dorms are another huge chunk of money at approximately $450 per person, which leaves $50*120-something left over for necessary equipment, shirts, meals, yada yada etc.

As a cadet, you are not as in the loop as you would like to think.  Yes, the expenses are unbelievable but they have gotten their equipment from many sources to include Vanguard but not exclusively from them as they do not carry all of it or are just too expensive.  The college is the biggest problem and has been for some time even though the directors scouted all possible facilities from Va to NJ not sure how far west.  The limitations on distance were also divided between how far the directors could reasonably drive in a day with the many trailers of stuff needed and the distance the AF Presidential Honor Guard could travel daily from Bolling AFB to instruct the cadets.  As a past staff member for nearly 9 years, I have the ins and outs of what went on behind the "curtains".   

HGjunkie

I'm getting all my info from the SA's and the other staff so I know how they're hard pressed at least for the 3 past activity years. Recently they've been forced to get everything they're possibly able to from Vanguard (Ascots, activity shirts, cords, about 90% of the HGA store because of the CAP-vanguard sole merchant agreement) with a couple select items coming from Glendale (gloves, belts, taps/cheaters, rifles, things like that).
They can't even give out chinstraps anymore because of the costs. A $7 strip of leather. Pretty ridiculous. This year they couldn't even issue out 6 shirts to each new cadet, they got 1 or 2.

The college really is a drive for the Guardsmen, it's not near the airport/DC, the dorms are in okay-ish condition but nothing to sneeze at, but at least there's lecture halls and empty classrooms we're allowed to use.
Bottom line is HGA eats money and lots of it.

Having it on a military installation again would be great, just to alleviate the financial burdens if anything.
••• retired
2d Lt USAF

spaatzmom

Quote from: HGjunkie on December 06, 2012, 12:08:30 AM
I'm getting all my info from the SA's and the other staff so I know how they're hard pressed at least for the 3 past activity years. Recently they've been forced to get everything they're possibly able to from Vanguard (Ascots, activity shirts, cords, about 90% of the HGA store because of the CAP-vanguard sole merchant agreement) with a couple select items coming from Glendale (gloves, belts, taps/cheaters, rifles, things like that).
They can't even give out chinstraps anymore because of the costs. A $7 strip of leather. Pretty ridiculous. This year they couldn't even issue out 6 shirts to each new cadet, they got 1 or 2.

The college really is a drive for the Guardsmen, it's not near the airport/DC, the dorms are in okay-ish condition but nothing to sneeze at, but at least there's lecture halls and empty classrooms we're allowed to use.
Bottom line is HGA eats money and lots of it.

Having it on a military installation again would be great, just to alleviate the financial burdens if anything.

The SA's don't always have the facts.  They often change year to year. Actually the staff shouldn't be discussing the financial ins and outs with cadets, in my opinion, even if asked. 

Pylon

Quote from: spaatzmom on December 06, 2012, 12:27:37 AMActually the staff shouldn't be discussing the financial ins and outs with cadets, in my opinion, even if asked.


I don't see why not.  We prepare our cadets, especially in Phase III and IV, for this type of planning, management, and executive oversight.  There's no real reason I see that our budgets for activities and programs shouldn't be transparent to the entire membership.


On top of that, if anything, transparency could help activity directors find cost efficiencies.  If I saw that Activity XYZ was spending $500 on something, and I know that from my experience in running Activity ABC that it can be obtained from another source reliably for $250 wouldn't that be the type of collaborative information and improvement that could come from open information?   And even furthermore, I think if cadets and senior members had a better idea of where activity fees go to, it would be easier to "sell" the cost of activities to parents and our volunteers.
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

Eclipse

#18
The one issue with "transparency" is being transparent.

Then people like me ask why, on earth, an activity would supply 6 shirts, the assumption being these are blue uniform shirts.  That's got to add $100+ dollars to the fees.  It would literally be less expensive just to send the same shirt to the local cleaners every day.

No growing CAP cadet is going to be able to use 6 dress shirts before they grow out of them.  At the rate a lot of cadets wear their blues, 6 shirts is a year's worth of uniforms without a wash.

I also have to throw the flag an any VG conspiracies, except to say that if the activity isn't doing lowest-price sourcing because of confusion over a non-existent VG exclusivity, and that raises the cost to the cadets, that is a problem. 

"That Others May Zoom"

spaatzmom

Quote from: Pylon on December 06, 2012, 12:59:24 AM
Quote from: spaatzmom on December 06, 2012, 12:27:37 AMActually the staff shouldn't be discussing the financial ins and outs with cadets, in my opinion, even if asked.


I don't see why not.  We prepare our cadets, especially in Phase III and IV, for this type of planning, management, and executive oversight.  There's no real reason I see that our budgets for activities and programs shouldn't be transparent to the entire membership.


On top of that, if anything, transparency could help activity directors find cost efficiencies.  If I saw that Activity XYZ was spending $500 on something, and I know that from my experience in running Activity ABC that it can be obtained from another source reliably for $250 wouldn't that be the type of collaborative information and improvement that could come from open information?   And even furthermore, I think if cadets and senior members had a better idea of where activity fees go to, it would be easier to "sell" the cost of activities to parents and our volunteers.

You raise some valid points.  I was speaking from my experience with NHGA, where you have a majority of new SA's each year and their understanding of the academy and its budget is, shall we say lacking?  The incidence of incorrect financial info being given to cadets in that instance would be great.  A lot of the cadets who did attend were phase 3 or 4, but there were a number of phase 2 and phase 1 there in any given year.  From all the years I was there, I would say only a handful of the cadets would be even remotely interested in the behind the scene workings of the academy and they were the ones who dedicated themselves to it by returning for the 3 year program and then going back to be on staff.