rumors?

[hellfire40]

do they shave your head at encampment?

[Daniel]

No. Though if your hair doesn't meet standard, you might wanna ask someone to cut it beforehand or risk missing inspection points.

[Rotorhead]

do they shave your head at encampment?

At the COWG encampment, if your hair is too long, you'll be sent to the Barber Shop for a haircut that meets CAP standards.

[Daniel]

At MOWG they gave the $0 swiss-army-knife fix up

[Spike]

^ Who gave the shave?

[Dracosbane]

My first encampment WIWAC was at Redstone Arsenal, AL.  I was within regs, except that my hair was behind my ears, but not touching.  They sent me and two other cadets to the base barber for a cut.  I ended up with sunburn on my head the rest of the week, thanks to the mesh trucker hats and the high and tight.

[PA Guy]

No, they do not shave your head at encampment. Your hair must meet the requirements found here http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/M39_1_atchs.pdf

At many of the encampments I have attended cadets out of compliance were given a choice, get a haircut or go home. All haircuts were done in a barbershop, amatuer haircuts are an invitation to disaster.

[flyguy06]

I run into a lot of cadets at various squadron meetings that need haircuts. They dont meet CAP regsd. I dont know why Squadron CC's allow this. But I usually say something about it if I see it

[SarDragon]

My comment to an individual needing a haircut is usually, "Nice haircut!", dripping with sarcasm. My comment to the supervising senior is substantially different.

[BreakSilence]

Getting your head shaved at encampment could actually be perceived as hazing.  At one of my Wing's encampments, a SM got into some hot water with another female SM since he shaved her son's head.  The son was a staff cadet and consented, but that just goes to show it's not a good idea to shave people's heads.  (Actually, I think that was the encampment when Mike Kieloch visited our Wing.)

[Pylon]

Getting your head shaved at encampment could actually be perceived as hazing.  At one of my Wing's encampments, a SM got into some hot water with another female SM since he shaved her son's head.  The son was a staff cadet and consented, but that just goes to show it's not a good idea to shave people's heads.  (Actually, I think that was the encampment when Mike Kieloch visited our Wing.)

Hah, yeah, I remember the haircuts but I'll be honest.  I don't see anything wrong with offering (not pressuring people into) the haircuts to members.  If a fellow CAP member is proficient with and has clippers, and is willing to do it for free, why not?  There always seem to be people who show up to activities like encampment with hair out of regs.

If a cadet says "Sure, give me a cut!" and mom disapproves a week later, how is that any different than the cadet saying, "Sure, I'll go to the barber!" when we round up cadets for a trip to the base barber for the same buzz cut?

[flyguy06]

Getting your head shaved at encampment could actually be perceived as hazing.  At one of my Wing's encampments, a SM got into some hot water with another female SM since he shaved her son's head.  The son was a staff cadet and consented, but that just goes to show it's not a good idea to shave people's heads.  (Actually, I think that was the encampment when Mike Kieloch visited our Wing.)

They should have gotten the parents permission, not the cadets.

[Ned]

Just a side note:  in some states it is a crime to cut hair without a license as a barber or cosmetologist if there is any sort of compensation involved.

In California, it is a misdemeanor punishable by jail and a fine.

Interestingly, it takes a 1,500 hour   course to get such a license.   

[Spike]

^ Those scissors and razors are sure complicated things to figure out.   

[Pylon]

They should have gotten the parents permission, not the cadets.

Really?  Cadet Dufflebag goes to encampment, and he is (not his parents) held responsible for meeting the standards, learning the material, being accountable for his actions, etc. during the week (at least that's what we preach, right?).   So, if cadets need haircuts and the encampment staff takes a van load of those who want/need haircuts to the base barber or offers them there, Cadet Dufflebag should suddenly absolve himself of any decision-making capability and ask for a phone to call home and ask if he can have a haircut?   Why should we stop there, then.   What about parental informed consent for trimming nails?  Should we worry about parental backlash everytime we tell a cadet to shave that precious peach fuzz stache?    I mean, folks, this isn't a tattoo -- it grows back! (well for cadets, it does)


The real issue the above mentioned parent had was between the parent and the cadet.  If someone's son or daughter decides to get a haircut that they know or think Mom might not approve of, that's their decision and they face the consequences.  CAP is only concerned with the cadet meeting the regulation (and parents are typically well briefed when their son or daughter joins CAP on what those expectations will be).  So if Cadet Dufflebag has a well-groomed princeton cut and decides at encampment to get a high-n-tight from the barber, that's not CAP's problem.  As far as CAP is concerned, either way, Dufflebag's hair is in regs and perhaps we even note that he showed good forethought by availing himself of an opportunity to simplify his grooming for the duration of encampment.

[JC004]

Just a side note:  in some states it is a crime to cut hair without a license as a barber or cosmetologist if there is any sort of compensation involved.

In California, it is a misdemeanor punishable by jail and a fine.

Interestingly, it takes a 1,500 hour   course to get such a license.   

As you are well aware professionally, California has a law for just about everything, no?

[flyguy06]

They should have gotten the parents permission, not the cadets.

Really?  Cadet Dufflebag goes to encampment, and he is (not his parents) held responsible for meeting the standards, learning the material, being accountable for his actions, etc. during the week (at least that's what we preach, right?).   So, if cadets need haircuts and the encampment staff takes a van load of those who want/need haircuts to the base barber or offers them there, Cadet Dufflebag should suddenly absolve himself of any decision-making capability and ask for a phone to call home and ask if he can have a haircut?   Why should we stop there, then.   What about parental informed consent for trimming nails?  Should we worry about parental backlash everytime we tell a cadet to shave that precious peach fuzz stache?    I mean, folks, this isn't a tattoo -- it grows back! (well for cadets, it does)


The real issue the above mentioned parent had was between the parent and the cadet.  If someone's son or daughter decides to get a haircut that they know or think Mom might not approve of, that's their decision and they face the consequences.  CAP is only concerned with the cadet meeting the regulation (and parents are typically well briefed when their son or daughter joins CAP on what those expectations will be).  So if Cadet Dufflebag has a well-groomed princeton cut and decides at encampment to get a high-n-tight from the barber, that's not CAP's problem.  As far as CAP is concerned, either way, Dufflebag's hair is in regs and perhaps we even note that he showed good forethought by availing himself of an opportunity to simplify his grooming for the duration of encampment.

I would agree with you if we were taling about a soldier. but we are talking about someone under the age of 18 who cant make legal decisions. So before I touched a cadet, i would wanthis parent, who is legal guardian to know about it. Unfortunantly, we live in a sue happy country.

[davidsinn]

They should have gotten the parents permission, not the cadets.

Really?  Cadet Dufflebag goes to encampment, and he is (not his parents) held responsible for meeting the standards, learning the material, being accountable for his actions, etc. during the week (at least that's what we preach, right?).   So, if cadets need haircuts and the encampment staff takes a van load of those who want/need haircuts to the base barber or offers them there, Cadet Dufflebag should suddenly absolve himself of any decision-making capability and ask for a phone to call home and ask if he can have a haircut?   Why should we stop there, then.   What about parental informed consent for trimming nails?  Should we worry about parental backlash everytime we tell a cadet to shave that precious peach fuzz stache?    I mean, folks, this isn't a tattoo -- it grows back! (well for cadets, it does)


The real issue the above mentioned parent had was between the parent and the cadet.  If someone's son or daughter decides to get a haircut that they know or think Mom might not approve of, that's their decision and they face the consequences.  CAP is only concerned with the cadet meeting the regulation (and parents are typically well briefed when their son or daughter joins CAP on what those expectations will be).  So if Cadet Dufflebag has a well-groomed princeton cut and decides at encampment to get a high-n-tight from the barber, that's not CAP's problem.  As far as CAP is concerned, either way, Dufflebag's hair is in regs and perhaps we even note that he showed good forethought by availing himself of an opportunity to simplify his grooming for the duration of encampment.

I would agree with you if we were taling about a soldier. but we are talking about someone under the age of 18 who cant make legal decisions. So before I touched a cadet, i would wanthis parent, who is legal guardian to know about it. Unfortunantly, we live in a sue happy country.

How is it a legal decision if the kid gets his hair cut or not? Last I checked you didn't have to sign a waiver to walk into a barber shop....

[jimmydeanno]

I used to go to the barber all by myself starting at about the age of eight.  The barber never refused to cut my hair because my parents didn't give him express permission to do so.  Then, at about the age of thirteen, I realized that it was to my benefit to go to a hair stylist 

Also, I'm not sure that there is any legal ramifications of bringing a kid to a barber to get a haircut.  There isn't any criminal activity that's punishable and there aren't any civil damages, because there isn't any damages that have occurred, with exception of the cost of the haircut.

[flyguy06]

They should have gotten the parents permission, not the cadets.

Really?  Cadet Dufflebag goes to encampment, and he is (not his parents) held responsible for meeting the standards, learning the material, being accountable for his actions, etc. during the week (at least that's what we preach, right?).   So, if cadets need haircuts and the encampment staff takes a van load of those who want/need haircuts to the base barber or offers them there, Cadet Dufflebag should suddenly absolve himself of any decision-making capability and ask for a phone to call home and ask if he can have a haircut?   Why should we stop there, then.   What about parental informed consent for trimming nails?  Should we worry about parental backlash everytime we tell a cadet to shave that precious peach fuzz stache?    I mean, folks, this isn't a tattoo -- it grows back! (well for cadets, it does)


The real issue the above mentioned parent had was between the parent and the cadet.  If someone's son or daughter decides to get a haircut that they know or think Mom might not approve of, that's their decision and they face the consequences.  CAP is only concerned with the cadet meeting the regulation (and parents are typically well briefed when their son or daughter joins CAP on what those expectations will be).  So if Cadet Dufflebag has a well-groomed princeton cut and decides at encampment to get a high-n-tight from the barber, that's not CAP's problem.  As far as CAP is concerned, either way, Dufflebag's hair is in regs and perhaps we even note that he showed good forethought by availing himself of an opportunity to simplify his grooming for the duration of encampment.

I would agree with you if we were taling about a soldier. but we are talking about someone under the age of 18 who cant make legal decisions. So before I touched a cadet, i would wanthis parent, who is legal guardian to know about it. Unfortunantly, we live in a sue happy country.

How is it a legal decision if the kid gets his hair cut or not? Last I checked you didn't have to sign a waiver to walk into a barber shop....

Its not ileagal for a kid to get a haircut. But when a cadet goes to an encampment he becomes CAP's responsibility and when SM Smith who is not a barber wants to cut his hair because he is out out regs, that becomes an issue.

[Nathan]

Being a barber doesn't give someone legal protection one way or the other. It's not like being a nurse or a doctor.

[jimmydeanno]

What law is being violated if someone has a child cut their hair without parental permission?  What law is being violated if someone without a certification cuts someones hair without taking money for it?  Assault?  What damages are incurred? 

It seems to be one of those "parents don't like it but it's not illegal" situations.  But then again, I'm not a lawyer and I keep my hair short.

[flyguy06]

I'm not taling about the law. I am talking about responsibility. We are responsible for someone else children during encampments. If cadet Jones gets hurt. Mrs. Jones is gonna want answers from who? us. If Cadet gets a haircut that Mrs Jones didnt approve of, Mrs. Jones is gonna want answers from who? us.


Hey, I'm a grunt, I got no problem giving a cadet a buzz cut i am just saying when you are dealing with someone else's child, you need to tread lightly.

[FW]

Isn't there a form to be signed by the parents before a cadet goes to encampment?  If there is a policy to insure the cadet meets the uniform requirements when participating, there should be a disclosure so parents know their child may get "trimmed" while at the activity. I'm surprised this is an issue.

[Cecil DP]

When thecadets and parents sign the membership form , they are also certifying that their son.daughter, or spawn will adhere to CAP requirements.  So requiring that cadet to get a haircur is appropriate. But a cadet with a shaved head isn't. If you have to send a cadet to the barbershop he/she should be accompanied by a member of the cadre and the words, "Tapered haircut" should be used. (unless the kid is infested with lice or other hitchhikers). 

[BreakSilence]

I'm not taling about the law. I am talking about responsibility. We are responsible for someone else children during encampments. If cadet Jones gets hurt. Mrs. Jones is gonna want answers from who? us. If Cadet gets a haircut that Mrs Jones didnt approve of, Mrs. Jones is gonna want answers from who? us.


Hey, I'm a grunt, I got no problem giving a cadet a buzz cut i am just saying when you are dealing with someone else's child, you need to tread lightly.

Totally agree.  I think the main problem here is the communication.  Parents should be more involved in finding out exactly what CAP requires from their children.  Too many parents just drop their kids off at CAP activities like it's some kind of day care.  However, CAP should also take the initiative to inform parents of the details of our requirements.  It is required by the regulations for parents to sign a waiver before cadets can attend many activities.  However, most parents don't realize exactly what kind of permission they're giving.  We should be giving parents the information, so that our backs are covered later.  If they ever come around to complain, we can always tell them we told you.  Like flyguy said, you need to tread lightly with parents.  If you don't let them know in advance, you can get in trouble.

[VPI18]

do they shave your head at encampment?

From my experience as a basic at NJWG encampment, you hair will not be cut unless it is not meeting grooming standards. If it is not, you will be taken to the barber and it will be buzzed, but not shaved. I have not personally had this experience, but this has happened to several of my fellow cadets in my flight. You will have to pay for the haircut.

[Cecil DP]

When I was staioned at Quantico in the early 70's I went into the barbershop to get a "Tapered" haircut in accordance with USMC regulations. While I was being clipped a Colonel decided that my barber wasn't cutting it short enough and ordered the barber to cut it to his standard. When it was time to pay, I had the barber collect from the colonel, because he didn't cut it the way I told him to.  The Colonel paid.

[GTCommando]

OHWG, yes. If you don't meet the grooming standards, which this year was no. 1 cut on top, buzzed everywhere else. Check our encampment website for proof (pics).

http://encampment.ohwg.cap.gov/ 

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Here for the Independence Day parade, I cut quite a few cadets hair. I got every cadet who wanted to be in the parade to sit down in a briefing with me and their parents and explained what was going to go on. I also told them that the cadets MUST have a hair cut within three days of the parade, and it MUST be within regulation. I also told them that I regularly cut hair when I was in the Army. If they didn't understand what the regulation was or didn't know where to go to get a good hair cut or for whatever reason they had, I could cut their hair. But I also told them that they HAD to sign a piece of paper that said you may cut my kid's hair. SO I did end up cutting about 8 kid's hair. Since then, the cadets knew what the regulation was, and they found they felt better with short hair and they all wear an infantry style high and tight (infantry style is with about an inch of hair in the front that fades to the rest of the hair on top for style) just like me.

[HGjunkie]

When I was staioned at Quantico in the early 70's I went into the barbershop to get a "Tapered" haircut in accordance with USMC regulations. While I was being clipped a Colonel decided that my barber wasn't cutting it short enough and ordered the barber to cut it to his standard. When it was time to pay, I had the barber collect from the colonel, because he didn't cut it the way I told him to.  The Colonel paid.

Lol. Did he say anything?

[Eclipse]

OHWG, yes. If you don't meet the grooming standards, which this year was no. 1 cut on top, buzzed everywhere else. Check our encampment website for proof (pics).

http://encampment.ohwg.cap.gov/ 

Encampments do not have the authority to force a haircut beyond the standard as prescribed in 39-1, which is far from a "#1 with a side buzz".

[HGjunkie]

A 2 on the sides and a 4 on the top is usually pretty sharp for regular use, and doesn't make you look goofy at school.

[MSgt Van]

I'd say encampments don't have the authority to force a haircut, period. Gig the kid points, send him home, but force a haircut?! No way.

[GTCommando]

^ I didn't attend this year's encampment. I'm just repeating what I saw on the 2010 website. That's the standard they laid down. I knew about it because I was in the selection process for cadet staff when this went down. Whether or not they forced haircuts, I'm not sure. I've got a couple of guys who were there. I'll ask them and get back with you all.

[tsrup]

I'd say encampments don't have the authority to force a haircut, period. Gig the kid points, send him home, but force a haircut?! No way.

I'd say "force" in this instance is: "Get your hair cut or go home."

I seriously doubt anyone out there is holding down cadets and taking the clippers to them..

[Eclipse]

^ Concur - as with nearly all CAP activities, our option is generally "play nice or leave" (with potential further consequences when they get home).

Our recourse to compel people to do things is either risk your membership / status / CAP job, or risk civil litigation (if you bend a plane, etc.)
Once someone decides their unacceptable behavior has more personal value than membership in good standing, our options become somewhat limited (though to me they also become fairly clear).

The problem with cadets is whether 1 in a line of ten is going to say "no" to the "mandatory" haircut, and mom and dad might not know any better, either.  These kinds of things are why we have CAP-USAF oversight and higher HQ's to vet behavior, but alas, no system is perfect, and sometimes you have to go pretty high before someone says "knock it off"...

[Nathan]

[Accidental post...]

[ES Ninja]

Getting your head shaved at encampment could actually be perceived as hazing.  At one of my Wing's encampments, a SM got into some hot water with another female SM since he shaved her son's head.  The son was a staff cadet and consented, but that just goes to show it's not a good idea to shave people's heads.  (Actually, I think that was the encampment when Mike Kieloch visited our Wing.)

They should have gotten the parents permission, not the cadets.

Okay guys, the solution to the issue discussed in the past two pages is simple. We already have parents sign release forms, travel forms, medication forms, etc. Why not have them also sign a form that says, "I understand that if my son arrives at encampment with hair that does not meet the requirements found in CAPM 39-1 (quote requirements here) he will be taken to the nearest barber for a buzz cut, at his expense." ///signed/// _____________.

Problem solved, no legal ramifications. If the parent doesn't sign the haircut waiver form, their child cannot attend. Est finis.

[Eclipse]

^ Because providing haircuts is not the responsibility of the activity, nor is it even possible in many cases.

If a cadet cannot arrive at an encampment with hair within regs, they don't belong there.

This is part of the personal responsibility we are trying to instill in our cadets, as well as command oversight by their leaders.

[Top Dawg]

I saw several cadets at my basic encampment (GAWG Summer) slide by without a haircut within regs only to have them lose points during inspections. During my last encampment (FLWG Winter) any cadet who came in with a bad haircut got a shave... including staff. As my home-squadron's first sergeant, I tell any of my cadets as soon as their cut slips out of regs. The next week if they're still out of regs I give them one of Chief Hillman's Famous Haircuts. Only after getting a parent's permission of course

[Eclipse]

I saw several cadets at my basic encampment (GAWG Summer) slide by without a haircut within regs only to have them lose points during inspections.

That is the way these things self-level.

Now, if the cadet came to a staffer mid-week and asked regarding getting a haircut to "fix things" during his free time, that, I suppose, is a different
story.  But not mandating or forcing them.

[Ned]

Not to mention that acting as a barber without a license to cut hair is a misdemeanor in most states.

[Ed Bos]

Not to mention that acting as a barber without a license to cut hair is a misdemeanor in most states.

That's interesting... Would the absence of payment be a factor in that? Are you "acting as a barber" if you're not being compensated?

[Eclipse]

Not to mention that acting as a barber without a license to cut hair is a misdemeanor in most states.

Does that make Flowbee users criminals?

[Al Sayre]

No but walking around with a flowbee haircut is generally a crime against humanity.  You really ought to throw yours away... 

[Ed Bos]

^^ Zing! 

[MSG Mac]

Rather than cut their hair, don't check them into the encampment until their hair is cut.There is usually a barber shop open on the base on the weekends, and a van could be reserved to take these cadets and seniors there. After everyone else has been checked in. 

[commando1]

At TNWG encampment held at Fort Campbell, KY if you did not meet the grooming standards you were taken to a military barber and given a buzz. No parental permission. At the squadron level I do not tell cadets to get haircuts. I call their parents to take Cadet Scruffy to the barber. 

[JoeTomasone]

No, they do not shave your head at encampment. Your hair must meet the requirements found here http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/M39_1_atchs.pdf

At many of the encampments I have attended cadets out of compliance were given a choice, get a haircut or go home. All haircuts were done in a barbershop, amatuer haircuts are an invitation to disaster.

IMHO, this is the proper solution.

Should be that way for all uniform issues - if it's fixable on-site, fix it.    If it's not, or the member chooses not to fix it, the member goes home.


It's when we get lax on standards that they cease to become standards.

[M.N.]

I'm not sure about encampment, but I have been to activities where you would have your hair cut if it wasn't within regs or be sent home. Most people initially just let them trim around their ears, but then get a flat top after they realize how bad it looks.

[Rowan]

Okay guys, the solution to the issue discussed in the past two pages is simple. We already have parents sign release forms, travel forms, medication forms, etc. Why not have them also sign a form that says, "I understand that if my son arrives at encampment with hair that does not meet the requirements found in CAPM 39-1 (quote requirements here) he will be taken to the nearest barber for a buzz cut, at his expense." ///signed/// _____________.

Problem solved, no legal ramifications. If the parent doesn't sign the haircut waiver form, their child cannot attend. Est finis.
[/quote]

Several years ago, the GAWG Encampment application package included a separate release form specifically regarding haircuts, but I haven't seen one lately.

[ES Ninja]

Okay guys, the solution to the issue discussed in the past two pages is simple. We already have parents sign release forms, travel forms, medication forms, etc. Why not have them also sign a form that says, "I understand that if my son arrives at encampment with hair that does not meet the requirements found in CAPM 39-1 (quote requirements here) he will be taken to the nearest barber for a buzz cut, at his expense." ///signed/// _____________.

Problem solved, no legal ramifications. If the parent doesn't sign the haircut waiver form, their child cannot attend. Est finis.

Several years ago, the GAWG Encampment application package included a separate release form specifically regarding haircuts, but I haven't seen one lately.

I believe NCWG Encampment did that a year or two ago.