What does a C\Basic wear for rank?

[Omar]

I've read the regs and old message board postings but...

What rank should a new cadet who has just joined wear on the BDU and Blues collar?

The reg says CAP cutouts are no longer worn on the collars (opposite the Cadet rank insignia).

Omar

[jeders]

Basics still wear CAP cutouts

Cadet members without grade wear metal device on both sides of the collar.

[MIKE]

Cadet Airman Basic - C/AB is the proper title.  Pet peeve.

[Eclipse]

Basics still wear CAP cutouts

Cadet members without grade wear metal device on both sides of the collar.

Ditto for senior members without grade - and a pet peeve of mine is that this is the embroidered grade for officers seniors, NOT metal pins.

I'd be curious where you read the cutouts are not worn.  Sounds like a mis-read of having cadets and seniors with grade wear it on both collars.

[DC]

Metal CAP Cutouts on both collars. C/Amn and above wear their grade insignia on both collars.

And yes, Cadet Basic is an old hold over, it is Cadet Airman Basic - C/AB

Basics still wear CAP cutouts

Cadet members without grade wear metal device on both sides of the collar.

Ditto for senior members without grade - and a pet peeve of mine is that this is the embroidered grade for officers seniors, NOT metal pins.

I'd be curious where you read the cutouts are not worn.  Sounds like a mis-read of having cadets and seniors with grade wear it on both collars.

He misinterpreted the elimination of having rank on one side and cutouts on the other for everyone except C/ABs and SMWOGs.

[SSgt Rudin]

Basics still wear CAP cutouts

Cadet members without grade wear metal device on both sides of the collar.

Ditto for senior members without grade - and a pet peeve of mine is that this is the embroidered grade for officers seniors, NOT metal pins.

I'd be curious where you read the cutouts are not worn.  Sounds like a mis-read of having cadets and seniors with grade wear it on both collars.

Anyone else seen a bunch of SMWOG running around wearing blank grey epaulets? Maybe it's just a Florida thing. What makes me even madder is at wing conference I mentioned it to the Officer(name retracted) who was giving a class on uniforms for senior members and he flat out told me he wasn't going to mention it in his class because that is what he wore when he was a SMWOG and that is what he thinks should be worn, even if the 39-1 says something different.

[Hawk200]

Anyone else seen a bunch of SMWOG running around wearing blank grey epaulets? Maybe it's just a Florida thing. What makes me even madder is at wing conference I mentioned it to the Officer(name retracted) who was giving a class on uniforms for senior members and he flat out told me he wasn't going to mention it in his class because that is what he wore when he was a SMWOG and that is what he thinks should be worn, even if the 39-1 says something different.

I haven't seen it, but I keep hearing about it. It's an example of "someone told me so, so it must be true". I see a related issue of flags being worn on the right sleeve of flightsuits.

It's amusing how some people will take something they hear as gospel, but will argue til they pass out about the stuff that's mandated in our publications.

[DC]

I wonder where that came from... *cough*Vanguard!*cough*

If they are being sold people assume they are allowed. It is logical, if the official supplier of uniform accesories sells something, you would think you are allowed to wear it...

[Hawk200]

I wonder where that came from... *cough*Vanguard!*cough*

If they are being sold people assume they are allowed. It is logical, if the official supplier of uniform accesories sells something, you would think you are allowed to wear it...

The blank epaulet is actually a legitimate uniform item (or used to be, not sure about this week). The problem is that it's only used by NCO's, where rank insignia is pinned on it. People are making the assumption that it is for SMWOG's.

[Omar]

Basics still wear CAP cutouts

Cadet members without grade wear metal device on both sides of the collar.

Ditto for senior members without grade - and a pet peeve of mine is that this is the embroidered grade for officers seniors, NOT metal pins.

I'd be curious where you read the cutouts are not worn.  Sounds like a mis-read of having cadets and seniors with grade wear it on both collars.

25 January 2008
MEMORANDUM FOR ALL CAP UNIT COMMANDERS
FROM: CC
SUBJECT: Changes to CAPM 39-1

2.
b. Cadet Enlisted Grade Insignia. Effective 10 July 2007, cadet enlisted
members are now authorized to wear grade insignia on both collars or lapels of the Air
Force service coat or light blue shirt. The CAP cutout will no longer be worn.
Mandatory wear date for this change is 1 March 2008.

I was just not finding where the information on C\AB's should wear.

Probably just a matter of semantics, but I took "...will no longer be worn" literally.


EDIT: fixed beige-on-white text to make readable-TA

[jeders]

Basics still wear CAP cutouts

Cadet members without grade wear metal device on both sides of the collar.

Ditto for senior members without grade - and a pet peeve of mine is that this is the embroidered grade for officers seniors, NOT metal pins.

I'd be curious where you read the cutouts are not worn.  Sounds like a mis-read of having cadets and seniors with grade wear it on both collars.

25 January 2008
MEMORANDUM FOR ALL CAP UNIT COMMANDERS
FROM: CC
SUBJECT: Changes to CAPM 39-1

2.
b. Cadet Enlisted Grade Insignia. Effective 10 July 2007, cadet enlisted
members are now authorized to wear grade insignia on both collars or lapels of the Air
Force service coat or light blue shirt. The CAP cutout will no longer be worn.
Mandatory wear date for this change is 1 March 2008.

I was just not finding where the information on C\AB's should wear.

Probably just a matter of semantics, but I took "...will no longer be worn" literally.


EDIT: fixed beige-on-white text to make readable-TA

It meant cutouts will no longer be worn on the collar if you wear rank. No rank, keep wearing the cutouts since those are worn on the right AND left collar already.

But the confusion is somewhat understandable.

[JayT]

Basics still wear CAP cutouts

Cadet members without grade wear metal device on both sides of the collar.

Ditto for senior members without grade - and a pet peeve of mine is that this is the embroidered grade for officers seniors, NOT metal pins.

I'd be curious where you read the cutouts are not worn.  Sounds like a mis-read of having cadets and seniors with grade wear it on both collars.

Anyone else seen a bunch of SMWOG running around wearing blank grey epaulets? Maybe it's just a Florida thing. What makes me even madder is at wing conference I mentioned it to the Officer(name retracted) who was giving a class on uniforms for senior members and he flat out told me he wasn't going to mention it in his class because that is what he wore when he was a SMWOG and that is what he thinks should be worn, even if the 39-1 says something different.

It's an NYWG thing to.

[MIKE]

Not just NYWG, 'cause I've seen it here too.

[SSgt Rudin]

I wonder where that came from... *cough*Vanguard!*cough*

If they are being sold people assume they are allowed. It is logical, if the official supplier of uniform accesories sells something, you would think you are allowed to wear it...

The blank epaulet is actually a legitimate uniform item (or used to be, not sure about this week). The problem is that it's only used by NCO's, where rank insignia is pinned on it. People are making the assumption that it is for SMWOG's.

They are technically not authorized any more, 39-1 was changed to embroidered epaulets for Senior NCO's the problem? if you try to order them from vanguard they send you blue ones for the corporate uniform(that are really poorly made), when you try to get them exchanged they say "Oh those are the only ones we have." So in comes the question, if the item you need to comply with uniform regulations is not available are you not in compliance by doing the next best thing?

[Hawk200]

So in comes the question, if the item you need to comply with uniform regulations is not available are you not in compliance by doing the next best thing?

You're still not in compliance, unfortunately, it's out of your control. I'd suggest wearing an alternate uniform of some type (such as BDU's, flightsuit or utility uniform) instead of the dressier clothes. Tell your commander that you don't have what you need yet, and neither does Vanguard.

It's the one major problem with phasing stuff in. Stuff gets required too quick, and there is no supply to meet the demand.

[SSgt Rudin]

So in comes the question, if the item you need to comply with uniform regulations is not available are you not in compliance by doing the next best thing?

You're still not in compliance, unfortunately, it's out of your control. I'd suggest wearing an alternate uniform of some type (such as BDU's, flightsuit or utility uniform) instead of the dressier clothes. Tell your commander that you don't have what you need yet, and neither does Vanguard.

It's the one major problem with phasing stuff in. Stuff gets required too quick, and there is no supply to meet the demand.

I guess I was just confused at the time as to why they can make the blue ones (the Air Force does not make SSgt blue epaulets) but they couldn't make the grey ones.  Doesn't matter now since I have traded my stripes for bars, but still. OH and wearing BDU's to wing conference wasn't a feasible solution neither was spending $100 on a corporate uniform just because Vanguard doesn't have the $7 epaulets I needed. 

[Pylon]

Basics still wear CAP cutouts

Cadet members without grade wear metal device on both sides of the collar.

Ditto for senior members without grade - and a pet peeve of mine is that this is the embroidered grade for officers seniors, NOT metal pins.

I'd be curious where you read the cutouts are not worn.  Sounds like a mis-read of having cadets and seniors with grade wear it on both collars.

25 January 2008
MEMORANDUM FOR ALL CAP UNIT COMMANDERS
FROM: CC
SUBJECT: Changes to CAPM 39-1

2.
b. Cadet Enlisted Grade Insignia. Effective 10 July 2007, cadet enlisted
members are now authorized to wear grade insignia on both collars or lapels of the Air
Force service coat or light blue shirt. The CAP cutout will no longer be worn.
Mandatory wear date for this change is 1 March 2008.

I was just not finding where the information on C\AB's should wear.

Probably just a matter of semantics, but I took "...will no longer be worn" literally.


EDIT: fixed beige-on-white text to make readable-TA

Here's the differentiation in the Interim Change Letter.   The ICL directs cadets to stop wearing grade insignia on one side and the CAP cutout on the other.  It directs them to wear grade insignia on both collars.

However, grade insignia for Cadets Airman Basic (properly abbreviated per CAPR 52-16 as "C/AB") is the CAP cutout.  So the cadets are in full compliance by wearing, as directed by both CAPM 39-1 and that ICL, to wear their grade insignia -the metal CAP cutouts- on both collars.

Fin.   

[DC]

Simply, the grade insignia for C/AB is the cutouts. So, per the ICL that is worn on both collars (as it always has)

This is why they need to update 39-1 already. These days instead of telling a cadet that he can find uniform regs in 39-1 I have to tell them, "Okay, go look in 39-1, then go look up the ICL dated XX/XX/XX and follow that. It's rediculous.

[brasda91]

This has been covered before.  I called national myself and CAP cut-outs are worn until the cadet earns his C/Amn grade.

[airdad]

Basics still wear CAP cutouts

Cadet members without grade wear metal device on both sides of the collar.

Ditto for senior members without grade - and a pet peeve of mine is that this is the embroidered grade for officers seniors, NOT metal pins.

I'd be curious where you read the cutouts are not worn.  Sounds like a mis-read of having cadets and seniors with grade wear it on both collars.

Anyone else seen a bunch of SMWOG running around wearing blank grey epaulets? Maybe it's just a Florida thing. What makes me even madder is at wing conference I mentioned it to the Officer(name retracted) who was giving a class on uniforms for senior members and he flat out told me he wasn't going to mention it in his class because that is what he wore when he was a SMWOG and that is what he thinks should be worn, even if the 39-1 says something different.

It's an NYWG thing to.

Not in my group, it's not

[Pylon]

It's an NYWG thing to.

Not in my group, it's not
[/quote]

Not in CNY group either.  Never seen it done, and I imagine anybody seen doing it would be corrected swiftly and shown the proper method of wearing their uniform.

[SDF_Specialist]

Why have the metal cutouts for seniors and cadets without rank? It's obvious that we're CAP. It says so on our nameplates. Especially the sew on for seniors. It's already hell having to sew them on. And the cutouts ruin the collars. I just don't see the point. But I won't argue. I don't have to worry about the CAP cutouts, just the first lieutenant bars (soon to be captain hopefully)

[DC]

Why have the metal cutouts for seniors and cadets without rank? It's obvious that we're CAP. It says so on our nameplates. Especially the sew on for seniors. It's already hell having to sew them on. And the cutouts ruin the collars. I just don't see the point. But I won't argue. I don't have to worry about the CAP cutouts, just the first lieutenant bars (soon to be captain hopefully)

Probably so you can tell the difference between an older C/AB and a younger SM. If you imagine an 18 yo C/AB, and the same person as a SM, what's to tell the difference between them? I know I'd be annoyed walk around and get called Cadet for 6 mos by SMs that think I'm a cadet.

[SDF_Specialist]

Good point. That would be frustrating to some members. Maybe not all, but it would get a little old after a while. I've seen grey epaulets that only have the "CAP" on it, with no rank indicated. Why not have that for seniors instead of the cutouts? Why not have blue epaulets with "CAP" on it for cadets? The way I see it, the epaulets for cadets just might work in two ways. Just about every cadet I've encountered think epaulets are sweet. I've never met a cadet who was content with the chevrons. If we give cadets epaulets that only have the "CAP" embroidered indicating that they are cadet airman basic, they will want to work toward getting that epaulet back, and putting the silver circle (I can't think of its name) on it. I try to think simple because there's no reason to make everything difficult. If things were a bit more simple, we wouldn't be on here complaining every other day. 

[Pylon]

Good point. That would be frustrating to some members. Maybe not all, but it would get a little old after a while. I've seen grey epaulets that only have the "CAP" on it, with no rank indicated. Why not have that for seniors instead of the cutouts? Why not have blue epaulets with "CAP" on it for cadets? The way I see it, the epaulets for cadets just might work in two ways. Just about every cadet I've encountered think epaulets are sweet. I've never met a cadet who was content with the chevrons. If we give cadets epaulets that only have the "CAP" embroidered indicating that they are cadet airman basic, they will want to work toward getting that epaulet back, and putting the silver circle (I can't think of its name) on it. I try to think simple because there's no reason to make everything difficult. If things were a bit more simple, we wouldn't be on here complaining every other day. 

No, doesn't really make sense.

[DC]

Epaulets are the domain of Cadet Officers, and they are darn proud of them. I think the enlisted rank structure is fine, it has served us well for a long time. I also know a lot of C/ABs would get saluted by the unwary Cadet NCO mistaking them for an officer at distance.

That alson wouldn't solve the problem in BDUs. There is already a solution, the embroidered epaulets, pain in the @$$ that they are.

[SDF_Specialist]

Good point. That would be frustrating to some members. Maybe not all, but it would get a little old after a while. I've seen grey epaulets that only have the "CAP" on it, with no rank indicated. Why not have that for seniors instead of the cutouts? Why not have blue epaulets with "CAP" on it for cadets? The way I see it, the epaulets for cadets just might work in two ways. Just about every cadet I've encountered think epaulets are sweet. I've never met a cadet who was content with the chevrons. If we give cadets epaulets that only have the "CAP" embroidered indicating that they are cadet airman basic, they will want to work toward getting that epaulet back, and putting the silver circle (I can't think of its name) on it. I try to think simple because there's no reason to make everything difficult. If things were a bit more simple, we wouldn't be on here complaining every other day. 

No, doesn't really make sense.

How do you figure? Not too many would want to do anything without incentive. It's a shame, but it's true.

[Pylon]

How do you figure? Not too many would want to do anything without incentive. It's a shame, but it's true.

Giving a Cadet Airman Basic insignia similar to a cadet officer, and then proposing to take it away from them when they complete their Curry will only encourage cadets to stagnate at C/AB.  It certainly doesn't provide any more incentive to advance through the achievements.  The cadets get the epaulets at C/2d Lt as it is, and they know that... giving them an (expensive, comparatively) teaser does nothing.

Plus, cadets already have plenty of legitimate incentives:  achievement ribbons, higher grade and associated insignia, increased responsibility and openings to additional opportunities (encampment, then encampment staff, scholarships, COS, IACE, etc.).  If that, coupled with proper encouragement from the staff, isn't enough then you're not doing something right or they're not cut out for our program.

Cutouts for C/AB's make sense.  The only other reasonable alternative would be just the shield that is currently on the chevrons, without any stripes.   Cadets from C/AB to C/CMSgt wear pin-on collar insignia.  A set of pin-on insignia is also cheaper and easier to keep a bunch of sets of hand for new incoming cadets.  It also gets them used to pinning on and positioning their insignia for future grades.

Epaulets on cadets airman basic would also further confuse cadets trying to spot cadet officers from a distance (for saluting purposes).  It would destroy the consistent look of cadet airmen/NCOs and cadet officers and break that uniformity.  Add that to the established pattern that within the cadet program the epaulets are a mark of distinction and achievement for cadet officers, and I think that makes a pretty strong case why it makes no sense whatsoever.

[SarDragon]

Epaulets are the domain of Cadet Officers, and they are darn proud of them. I think the enlisted rank structure is fine, it has served us well for a long time. I also know a lot of C/ABs would get saluted by the unwary Cadet NCO mistaking them for an officer at distance.

That alson wouldn't solve the problem in BDUs. There is already a solution, the embroidered epaulets, pain in the @$$ that they are.

They're not epaulets, they're shoulder boards. Properly, an epaulet is the part sewn to the shirt/blouse/jacket/coat/garment that the shoulder board (for cadets) or the shoulder mark (for SMs) attaches to.

[SJFedor]

Epaulets are the domain of Cadet Officers, and they are darn proud of them. I think the enlisted rank structure is fine, it has served us well for a long time. I also know a lot of C/ABs would get saluted by the unwary Cadet NCO mistaking them for an officer at distance.

That alson wouldn't solve the problem in BDUs. There is already a solution, the embroidered epaulets, pain in the @$$ that they are.

They're not epaulets, they're shoulder boards. Properly, an epaulet is the part sewn to the shirt/blouse/jacket/coat/garment that the shoulder board (for cadets) or the shoulder mark (for SMs) attaches to.

I think they're talking about the soft blue shoulder marks that cadets wear on the L/S and S/S combos, not the hard boards for the jacket.

[chiles]

Good point. That would be frustrating to some members. Maybe not all, but it would get a little old after a while. I've seen grey epaulets that only have the "CAP" on it, with no rank indicated. Why not have that for seniors instead of the cutouts? Why not have blue epaulets with "CAP" on it for cadets? The way I see it, the epaulets for cadets just might work in two ways. Just about every cadet I've encountered think epaulets are sweet. I've never met a cadet who was content with the chevrons. If we give cadets epaulets that only have the "CAP" embroidered indicating that they are cadet airman basic, they will want to work toward getting that epaulet back, and putting the silver circle (I can't think of its name) on it. I try to think simple because there's no reason to make everything difficult. If things were a bit more simple, we wouldn't be on here complaining every other day. 

I've never met a cadet not content with the chevrons. Actually, I've run into a bunch who stagnated at Chief (or just plain old Master Sergeant WIWAC) because they didn't want to lose the chevrons. As a former cadet officer, I don't really see the point in putting an enhanced burden on cadets to purchase those epaulet sleeves and then take them away for over a year. Particularly considering the rapidity with which we expect people to promote out of the basic level. Most parents will see it as little more than another thing their cadet is going to lose and they'll have to purchase again.

As a former cadet officer, I'd find it rather insulting to the cadet officers who have earned the right to wear it. Especially when you look at the time, effort and persistence required to earn ones Mitchell (and certainly the added effort to continue to promote). CAP cutouts aren't all that big a price and they are certainly helpful. As someone above said, they help train the basic cadet in how to properly wear rank insignia. I remember when I received my first set. They had to be polished (dating myself). I took pride in them as much as I took pride in earning my first stripe, and every stripe afterward.

[SJFedor]

Good point. That would be frustrating to some members. Maybe not all, but it would get a little old after a while. I've seen grey epaulets that only have the "CAP" on it, with no rank indicated. Why not have that for seniors instead of the cutouts? Why not have blue epaulets with "CAP" on it for cadets? The way I see it, the epaulets for cadets just might work in two ways. Just about every cadet I've encountered think epaulets are sweet. I've never met a cadet who was content with the chevrons. If we give cadets epaulets that only have the "CAP" embroidered indicating that they are cadet airman basic, they will want to work toward getting that epaulet back, and putting the silver circle (I can't think of its name) on it. I try to think simple because there's no reason to make everything difficult. If things were a bit more simple, we wouldn't be on here complaining every other day. 

As a former cadet officer, I'd find it rather insulting to the cadet officers who have earned the right to wear it. Especially when you look at the time, effort and persistence required to earn ones Mitchell (and certainly the added effort to continue to promote). CAP cutouts aren't all that big a price and they are certainly helpful. As someone above said, they help train the basic cadet in how to properly wear rank insignia. I remember when I received my first set. They had to be polished (dating myself). I took pride in them as much as I took pride in earning my first stripe, and every stripe afterward.

Plus, you DO use the cutouts again when you promote to C/Officer and need them for your service dress jacket 

[mikeylikey]

^ This Fedor guy is really smart.

[SDF_Specialist]

Gotta give him that. Points taken, understood, processed and filed. I will stand down and enjoy my epaulets. 

[SarDragon]

Gotta give him that. Points taken, understood, processed and filed. I will stand down and enjoy my epaulets. 

Or your epaulet sleeves? I was mistaken in using shoulder mark. That is apparently only an AF term.

[Eclipse]

They're not epaulets, they're shoulder boards. Properly, an epaulet is the part sewn to the shirt/blouse/jacket/coat/garment that the shoulder board (for cadets) or the shoulder mark (for SMs) attaches to.

I believe epaulet "sleeve" is the proper term for the cloth varient that cadets and officers seniors wear.

[SDF_Specialist]

Whatever it is, I'll wear it.