Global War On Terrorism Civilian Medal

[mikeylikey]

An Air Force Civilian along with 11 other civilians were just awarded the first GWOT-C medal.  Anyone hear of this, or have any more info?  All they had was her picture on AF Portal, and the line "awarded to civilian employees who provide direct support to military operations. 

Does CAP do that?  I know of instances where CAP members provided direct support to military operations in support of the War on Terror. 

[wingnut]

it is a very strange situation, CAP pilots recieved Airmedals for combat in wwII. However,now. I think it is an institutionalized way of thinking with the DOD. Your right, but think about all of the CAP members killed in the line of duty. It is alot, yet for such a small force, we really don't pay them the Hommage that is due them. I think part of it is many of the deaths are as a result of an "accident" and so fault is laid on someone. Maybe when one of our crews gets shot down in the War on terror, or on a CD mission, then we may see some recognition.

[Eagle400]

The Air Force doesn't have the courtesy to even mention CAP in it's official report on Hurricane Katrina, so what makes anyone think they're going to award the GWOT-C Medal to CAP members?

[JohnKachenmeister]

I believe that all AF civilian medals are for civil service employees of the Air Force.

We have our own.

I'm not sure WHY we have a separate set of awards, since we once were authorized Air Medals and were awarded a battle streamer.  But we now DO have our own set of awards, and I don't see that as being subject to change.

[Pylon]

Even if the Air Force gave you an Air Medal or this GWOT-C medal, or heck - even that actual GWOT service medal or the NDSM for your service in CAP, CAPM 39-1 says you can't wear it on your uniform anyways.   

But Maj. K is right.  This is for their civilian employees; they have their own set of medals and awards.  CAP doesn't fit that category at all.

[mikeylikey]

^ So one has to earn a military decoration while in the military, to be allowed to wear it on the CAP uniform?  Lets say the NDSM is awarded to CAP for its contributed actions since 9-11 to those members who were members 1 year before and held continual membership until at least 2004.  So the AF writes the orders, and presents it to those individuals.  You are telling me, that 39-1 prohibits the wear of a military decoration awarded by competant authority.  What the heck is wrong with this picture?

Mike.....if you are still working on your re-write to 39-1, that needs addressed!  Also National Guard ribbons and awards need to be allowed to be worn on the AF-style uniforms as well.

[Pylon]

^ So one has to earn a military decoration while in the military, to be allowed to wear it on the CAP uniform?  Lets say the NDSM is awarded to CAP for its contributed actions since 9-11 to those members who were members 1 year before and held continual membership until at least 2004.  So the AF writes the orders, and presents it to those individuals.  You are telling me, that 39-1 prohibits the wear of a military decoration awarded by competant authority.  What the heck is wrong with this picture?

Yes, if the AF awards a decoration to a CAP member for their CAP service... say, an Air Medal, or the SAEMR, or Humanitarian Service or whatever a CAP member cannot wear it on their CAP uniforms, including AF-style uniforms.  Even if it is awarded in writing by competent authority.

There's wording that requires you have earned the decorations while serving in the Armed Forces in order to wear them.  Those CAP members from WWII who got the Air Medals?  Can't wear 'em.  If any of them are still in these days, I hope somebody from NHQ sent them a memo telling them to take 'em off and leave in the shadowbox.

Mike.....if you are still working on your re-write to 39-1, that needs addressed!  Also National Guard ribbons and awards need to be allowed to be worn on the AF-style uniforms as well.

All of this will be looked at, particularly because of the absurd-type of situations mentioned above.

[arajca]

As pointed out on the Cadet Weapons Qualification Medal thread, CAPM 39-1 does not restrict the wear of military awards to those receiving them while serving. CAPR 39-3 does.

[RiverAux]

Pylon, you're forgetting the other regulation which doesn't have the restriction saying that the military award has to be earned while in military service. 

[Hawk200]

Pylon, you're forgetting the other regulation which doesn't have the restriction saying that the military award has to be earned while in military service. 

That really doesn't matter. If one of CAP's pubs says it's required, then it's required. Deciding to ignore one reg because it doesn't suit opinion is a serious lack of integrity.

That being said, I agree that it should not be a requirement. Service is service, and any military award should be recognized if it was awarded for the same accomplishments that a military member would receive it for.

The pubs themselves should be changed. It looks like serious crap when a CAP member isn't allowed to wear a mil dec that they received outside of military service.

[RiverAux]

No, it is not a breach of integrity.  The uniform manual says you can wear them if properly awarded and does not restrict it just to those earned while in the service.  The uniform manual is supposed to be the only regulation that matters in regards to uniform wear and is also more current than the awards manual, so it trumps the other one in my book. 

CAPM 39-1

COMPLIANCE WITH
THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY. Any variation from this publication is not authorized.

5-4. Military Service Awards. Military service ribbons may be worn on the CAP AF-style uniform provided they were awarded in writing by competent military authority.

[JohnKachenmeister]

OK, FLAME ON:

I KNOW some of you dedicated "We're only a civilian corporation" guys will get your panties in a bunch over this post, but I cannot resist.

CAP, when activated in a Federal role is, BY LAW, acting as an "Auxiliary of the United States Air Force."  For all purposes, again by law, CAP is, as an Auxiliary of the USAF, an "Instrumentality of the United States."

Therefore, when activated into Federal service, I contend that CAP is, in law and in fact, a part of the United States Air Force. 

The US Air Force is generally considered by most informed people to be an armed service of the US.  Service in an Auxiliary of that same US Air Force, performing a mission designated by the President for the US Air Force funded and supervised by the US Air Force, is "Service performed in any branch of the Armed Forces..." and therefore a medal or award given by competent military authority for such service meets the criteria set in CAPR 39-3, Section A, Paragraph 3b.

I'm not a lawyer, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

 

[RiverAux]

Just to get back to the original post -- I can't seem to find a citation documenting a civilian version of this medal or anything about who is eligible.  Anyone got one? 

[afgeo4]

Were these civilian employees agents of the AFOSI? If so, what they do and what we do are COMPLETELY different things.

These "civilian" agents are out in southwest asia... armed and in combat zones, investigating crimes against our military and government interests. It isn't a safe job by any measure.

[afgeo4]

OK, FLAME ON:

I KNOW some of you dedicated "We're only a civilian corporation" guys will get your panties in a bunch over this post, but I cannot resist.

CAP, when activated in a Federal role is, BY LAW, acting as an "Auxiliary of the United States Air Force."  For all purposes, again by law, CAP is, as an Auxiliary of the USAF, an "Instrumentality of the United States."

Therefore, when activated into Federal service, I contend that CAP is, in law and in fact, a part of the United States Air Force. 

The US Air Force is generally considered by most informed people to be an armed service of the US.  Service in an Auxiliary of that same US Air Force, performing a mission designated by the President for the US Air Force funded and supervised by the US Air Force, is "Service performed in any branch of the Armed Forces..." and therefore a medal or award given by competent military authority for such service meets the criteria set in CAPR 39-3, Section A, Paragraph 3b.

I'm not a lawyer, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

 

You could say the same thing about any other DoD civilian or even an AAFES employees... and they get deployed!

[Pylon]

OK, FLAME ON:

I KNOW some of you dedicated "We're only a civilian corporation" guys will get your panties in a bunch over this post, but I cannot resist.

CAP, when activated in a Federal role is, BY LAW, acting as an "Auxiliary of the United States Air Force."  For all purposes, again by law, CAP is, as an Auxiliary of the USAF, an "Instrumentality of the United States."

Therefore, when activated into Federal service, I contend that CAP is, in law and in fact, a part of the United States Air Force. 

The US Air Force is generally considered by most informed people to be an armed service of the US.  Service in an Auxiliary of that same US Air Force, performing a mission designated by the President for the US Air Force funded and supervised by the US Air Force, is "Service performed in any branch of the Armed Forces..." and therefore a medal or award given by competent military authority for such service meets the criteria set in CAPR 39-3, Section A, Paragraph 3b.

I'm not a lawyer, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

 

It's not just the "civilian corporation" guys whose panties will likely get in a bunch.  To suggest that being on a CAP AFAM means we are technically "service performed in...the Armed Forces" is pretty far fetched.  I never thought anybody would argue that.

[RiverAux]

I wouldn't even go so far as to say we are equivalent to AF members when on an AFAM.  We should be eligible for any AF awards that can be granted to civilians, but thats it. 

[mikeylikey]

^ For death benefits we are equivalent to a GS-9??  Not even sure what that translates into the new civilian pay grade scales.

[Hawk200]

No, it is not a breach of integrity.  The uniform manual says you can wear them if properly awarded and does not restrict it just to those earned while in the service.  The uniform manual is supposed to be the only regulation that matters in regards to uniform wear and is also more current than the awards manual, so it trumps the other one in my book. 

CAPM 39-1

COMPLIANCE WITH
THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY. Any variation from this publication is not authorized.

5-4. Military Service Awards. Military service ribbons may be worn on the CAP AF-style uniform provided they were awarded in writing by competent military authority.

The uniform manual covers wear, not eligibility for wear. Two different subjects.

I don't agree with the 39-3 either, but it's still a standing order regardless of opinion. Choosing to obey one, and ignoring the other is an integrity issue. If we disagree, we should get the pub changed, not ignore it.

It can be easily reasoned that if you ignore one publication, you will ignore others. Even if you don't, that thought will always be in people's minds. Best to avoid giving people the impression in the first place.

[RiverAux]

I have argued in many threads here that CAP does need to resolve this discrepancy in the regulations, and on that we can agree. 

[Hawk200]

I have argued in many threads here that CAP does need to resolve this discrepancy in the regulations, and on that we can agree. 

Yes, they do, big time. The thing is that these two pubs are covering two differing concepts. 39-1 says you can wear it when properly awarded. 39-3 states that it's only considered properly awarded if in performance of military service. 39-1 doesn't cover the criteria to receive it, only how to wear it. That's the difference between them.

Personally, I think its a crappy policy. I don't care if you got it sweeping floors at a military installation, if the military gives you a dec, you should be wearing it. Right now, CAP could use all the kudos of those kinds that we can get. It probably improves our image a good bit.

[RiverAux]

CAP can't govern how its members receive awards from other services.  All it can say is which ones can be worn on a CAP uniform.  If the Army wants to give me some crazy civilian award thats their right.  CAP can decide whether or not I can wear it on the CAP uniform.

That being said, I think the wording in 39-1 is the most appropriate.  Why should CAP care if the award was earned as a soldier or as a civilian so long as it was awarded by competent military authority?  And, I see we agree on that as well. 

[Hawk200]

CAP can't govern how its members receive awards from other services.  All it can say is which ones can be worn on a CAP uniform.  If the Army wants to give me some crazy civilian award thats their right.  CAP can decide whether or not I can wear it on the CAP uniform.

That's the nature of 39-3. It determines the criteria to receive it. Wear is a different principle. That reg has nothing to do with how it's worn, or even if it's worn.

Why should CAP care if the award was earned as a soldier or as a civilian so long as it was awarded by competent military authority?  And, I see we agree on that as well. 

Agreed. That's why we need to fix the reg.

There is one other stipulation as well that is rather vague, and that's the "authorized for wear on an Air Force uniform". It's a nasty little catchall. This civilian medal may not be considered acceptable for such wear.

If that is the case, we really don't have any recourse. But if the Air Force does actually permit, CAP shouldn't be bothering with the "in the performance of military service".

[JohnKachenmeister]

Flame me if you want.  I really don't care.

But, the idea that CAP wartime service folks, in combat, who were awarded the Air Medal then cannot wear it on the uniform that they wore it on at the time it was earned is simply... STUPID!

Assume that the AF has called CAP to perform an Air Force mission in support of Homeland Defense, and assume that the performance of CAP members was such that the AF determined that a decoration was warranted, then tell the CAP members that they cannot wear the AF decoration is STUPID!

The definition of a dysfunctional bureaucracy is an organization where smart people do stupid things for good reasons.

If someone wrote a regulation to try to prevent CAP members from wearing awards earned  in CAP service but awarded by the military, then the person who wrote that stupid regulation is, himself (or herself), STUPID!

If the wording of a regulation is so poor that it can be interpreted in a stupid way, then change the regulation as soon as such stupidity is identified.  Then, don't do stupid things until it can be changed.

My point, if you are serving in uniform and as an integral part of the AF, and the AF gives you an award, you wear it.  CAP is, on an AFAM, and by law, a part of the Air Force.

AAFES is not.  Civil Servants are, but come under a different law. 

[Wizard]

An Air Force Civilian along with 11 other civilians were just awarded the first GWOT-C medal.  Anyone hear of this, or have any more info?  All they had was her picture on AF Portal, and the line "awarded to civilian employees who provide direct support to military operations. 

Does CAP do that?  I know of instances where CAP members provided direct support to military operations in support of the War on Terror. 

Ok...i did some actual digging on this since as an AF civilian; i thought i might be eligible for the GWOT Service ribbon....The civilian medal is only awarded for participation where the expeditionary medal would be warranted:

http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/CivilianMedalsDecor/GWOTCivilianServiceMedal.htm


seems like the criteria is very clear in that to be awarded the Medal you must be:

1.  a civilian employees of the Department of Defense
2.  who on or after September 11, 2001, to a date to be determined
3.  participate abroad in direct support of a U.S. military GWOT operation in a location designated as a combat zone.
4.   Under no circumstances are personnel in the United States eligible for the medal.

hope this helps..

--wiz

[Pylon]

An Air Force Civilian along with 11 other civilians were just awarded the first GWOT-C medal.  Anyone hear of this, or have any more info?  All they had was her picture on AF Portal, and the line "awarded to civilian employees who provide direct support to military operations. 

Does CAP do that?  I know of instances where CAP members provided direct support to military operations in support of the War on Terror. 

Ok...i did some actual digging on this since as an AF civilian; i thought i might be eligible for the GWOT Service ribbon....The civilian medal is only awarded for participation where the expeditionary medal would be warranted:

http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/CivilianMedalsDecor/GWOTCivilianServiceMedal.htm


seems like the criteria is very clear in that to be awarded the Medal you must be:

1.  a civilian employees of the Department of Defense
2.  who on or after September 11, 2001, to a date to be determined
3.  participate abroad in direct support of a U.S. military GWOT operation in a location designated as a combat zone.
4.   Under no circumstances are personnel in the United States eligible for the medal.

hope this helps..

--wiz

Well at least DOD civilians putting their necks on the line downrange are also getting a small piece of tin for their service.  Good for them! 

[mikeylikey]

+1

[Hawk200]

Flame me if you want.  I really don't care.

If you get flamed, I'll be right there with you. We'll roast hot dogs or something....

But, the idea that CAP wartime service folks, in combat, who were awarded the Air Medal then cannot wear it on the uniform that they wore it on at the time it was earned is simply... STUPID!

Assume that the AF has called CAP to perform an Air Force mission in support of Homeland Defense, and assume that the performance of CAP members was such that the AF determined that a decoration was warranted, then tell the CAP members that they cannot wear the AF decoration is STUPID!

The definition of a dysfunctional bureaucracy is an organization where smart people do stupid things for good reasons.

If someone wrote a regulation to try to prevent CAP members from wearing awards earned  in CAP service but awarded by the military, then the person who wrote that stupid regulation is, himself (or herself), STUPID!

If the wording of a regulation is so poor that it can be interpreted in a stupid way, then change the regulation as soon as such stupidity is identified.  Then, don't do stupid things until it can be changed.

My point, if you are serving in uniform and as an integral part of the AF, and the AF gives you an award, you wear it.  CAP is, on an AFAM, and by law, a part of the Air Force.

AAFES is not.  Civil Servants are, but come under a different law. 

Just for my own clarification, John, I'm getting the idea that you think this is stupid? 

[DNall]

The US Air Force is generally considered by most informed people to be an armed service of the US.

[Gunner C]

^^^

[SAR-EMT1]

OK, FLAME ON:

I KNOW some of you dedicated "We're only a civilian corporation" guys will get your panties in a bunch over this post, but I cannot resist.

CAP, when activated in a Federal role is, BY LAW, acting as an "Auxiliary of the United States Air Force."  For all purposes, again by law, CAP is, as an Auxiliary of the USAF, an "Instrumentality of the United States."

Therefore, when activated into Federal service, I contend that CAP is, in law and in fact, a part of the United States Air Force. 

The US Air Force is generally considered by most informed people to be an armed service of the US.  Service in an Auxiliary of that same US Air Force, performing a mission designated by the President for the US Air Force funded and supervised by the US Air Force, is "Service performed in any branch of the Armed Forces..." and therefore a medal or award given by competent military authority for such service meets the criteria set in CAPR 39-3, Section A, Paragraph 3b.

I'm not a lawyer, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

 

It's not just the "civilian corporation" guys whose panties will likely get in a bunch.  To suggest that being on a CAP AFAM means we are technically "service performed in...the Armed Forces" is pretty far fetched.  I never thought anybody would argue that.

Well I, for one, always assumed that "service performed in...the Armed Forces" was exactly what being on an AFAM was.

[SARMedTech]

Flame me if you want.  I really don't care.

But, the idea that CAP wartime service folks, in combat, who were awarded the Air Medal then cannot wear it on the uniform that they wore it on at the time it was earned is simply... STUPID!

Assume that the AF has called CAP to perform an Air Force mission in support of Homeland Defense, and assume that the performance of CAP members was such that the AF determined that a decoration was warranted, then tell the CAP members that they cannot wear the AF decoration is STUPID!

The definition of a dysfunctional bureaucracy is an organization where smart people do stupid things for good reasons.

If someone wrote a regulation to try to prevent CAP members from wearing awards earned  in CAP service but awarded by the military, then the person who wrote that stupid regulation is, himself (or herself), STUPID!

If the wording of a regulation is so poor that it can be interpreted in a stupid way, then change the regulation as soon as such stupidity is identified.  Then, don't do stupid things until it can be changed.

My point, if you are serving in uniform and as an integral part of the AF, and the AF gives you an award, you wear it.  CAP is, on an AFAM, and by law, a part of the Air Force.

AAFES is not.  Civil Servants are, but come under a different law. 

Bravo! Major.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

So does anyone want to make a case for the National Defense Service Medal, then?

[Short Field]

That one is really easy to earn.

Just drop the "civilian auxillary" to the USAF.   

[SAR-EMT1]

Well, since every soldier sailor and airman recieves just for signing on the dotted line these days I'd say it should be easy. Te hard part is convincing the Air Force to give a crap.

Ive said it before and I'll say it again, this is why im dual hatted with the
CG Aux - they care.... With CAP/USAF I feel the same as I do at work when Im around PD and Fire: a bastard stepchild.
Im not trying to be rude, and Im not saying that Im quitting CAP anytime soon. Quite the opposite. It would just be nice if we got a bigger nod from our parent service. Allowing us to qualify for USAF awards/medals/ribbons is a start.

[Short Field]

Well, since every soldier sailor and airman recieves just for signing on the dotted line these days I'd say it should be easy.

It is easy, just do what they do --- sign on the dotted line.      That is how you drop the "civilian auxiliary" part.

[Wizard]

So does anyone want to make a case for the National Defense Service Medal, then?

I think a case could be made for the NDSM if the member was augmenting operations at an existing base similiar to the VSAF program.  If a member is in support for 60 days cumulatively and/or an AFAM mission for 60 days cumulatively...you could argue it i suppose.

[JayT]

Well, since every soldier sailor and airman recieves just for signing on the dotted line these days I'd say it should be easy. Te hard part is convincing the Air Force to give a crap.

Ive said it before and I'll say it again, this is why im dual hatted with the
CG Aux - they care.... With CAP/USAF I feel the same as I do at work when Im around PD and Fire: a bastard stepchild.
Im not trying to be rude, and Im not saying that Im quitting CAP anytime soon. Quite the opposite. It would just be nice if we got a bigger nod from our parent service. Allowing us to qualify for USAF awards/medals/ribbons is a start.

I find that arguement hard to follow. Do you really need USAF medals pinned to your jacket that badly?

A good nod from our parent service would be more money, more oversight, better relationships overall with base and unit commanders, etc etc etc.

[RogueLeader]

Do you really need USAF medals pinned to your jacket that badly?

It all depends on how you feel appreciated.  Some like a peice of tin, and some string.  Some like a peice of paper.  Some like a pat on the back, or public praise.  Some like any combonation of both.

Just because you do not like on meathod of reward or it doesn't work for you. that does not mean that it doesn't work for others.

[JayT]

Do you really need USAF medals pinned to your jacket that badly?

It all depends on how you feel appreciated.  Some like a peice of tin, and some string.  Some like a peice of paper.  Some like a pat on the back, or public praise.  Some like any combonation of both.

Just because you do not like on meathod of reward or it doesn't work for you. that does not mean that it doesn't work for others.

It just seems like everything something like this comes up, ten people dive on it with ancedotes from World War II, half hearted comparisons to the Coast Guard Auxiliary, and the such.

[AlphaSigOU]

Hey... I wanna Cold War service/victory medal! 

Considering every time it gets brought up in the defense budget bills DoD dumps on it ('too expensive to fund and correct military records', 'Cold War covered under other service medals', etc.), I'm not holding my breath. Long shot would be extending the service period of an existing service medal (such as the NDSM) to cover the Cold War and eliminate the gaps between conflicts.

And I'm not that stupid to try and put on one of those 'commemorative' Cold War medals on my CAP uniform!  (Haven't seen anyone try to... yet!)

We just need to fix the wording between CAPM 39-1 and CAPR 39-3, is all.