Cadet Weapons Qualifications Badge

[jb512]

Not quite sure why the other thread was locked so quickly, but I'll start a new one and see how long this one lasts.

There are four badges authorized for wear by cadets who qualify under the NRA standards.  They are pro-marksman, marksman, sharpshooter, and expert.  The courses of fire are listed on the NRA website.  Just because the badge does not say "junior" on it does not mean it is not authorized.

[DNall]

That's my understanding as well. It seems there was some confusion as to if 39-1 concurs with what NRA currently offers. I know the current NRA youth shooting program that we're using is really great, but hasn't been around for generations. Is it possible the ref in 39-1 is about a previously offered NRA badge & CAP did't update the reg as the NRA program changed? Just curious.

[SDF_Specialist]

Yeah, that is a possibility. I know of a cadet who proudly wears his NRA badge on the blues. I think all you have to do to get the ok to wear the badge is show proof that you've completed NRA courses.

[Hawk200]

There are four badges authorized for wear by cadets who qualify under the NRA standards.  They are pro-marksman, marksman, sharpshooter, and expert.  The courses of fire are listed on the NRA website.  Just because the badge does not say "junior" on it does not mean it is not authorized.

Yes, it does. There is one badge that says "Junior Marksmanship Badge" on it, and it's awarded after participation in competition. It's essentially an equivalent to the Excellence in Competition badges for those not yet adults.

The manual does not say that you wear whatever badge the NRA has. Doesn't work that way. The badge actually referenced in 39-1 is a single badge, it doesn't have pro, marksman, sharpshooter or expert to it. If those badges are being worn, it's contrary to the manual. In some cases it's a lack of awareness of what the manual is saying. In others, it's willful violation of rules.

[DNall]

I don't know the answer here. I know that in Texas we shoot 22s at encampment > 2 firing orders over three hours, I believe 3 sets of 40rds on a target that I guess is 20 meter or something, I don't know exactly, and that results in authorization to wear the lower level of the multiple badges listed above. There's official PAs from Wg & the whole thing. Now, if that's a long, wide, & high misinterpretation of the reg or not, I don't know. If that is the case, I'd like to find out.

Now, I got no problem with a shooting program. I'm not sure going thru NRA is the best way (and their badges look like crap on our uniforms). I think I'd rather go thru CMP which can lead to badges they can keep in the military. And military qualification under the AFI allowing award of the AF small arms mksmnshp ribbon, which they can also keep. If we're going to stick with NRA, I'd rather ditch their badges & use an internal ribbon with a color/pattern similar to AF. That de-emphasizes the importance more in line with reality & gives a better appearance recognizable for what it is.

I got no problem with shooting as an element of encampments, but we (at least my wg) use a massive amount of training time on it, with an already condensed schedule. I'd rather just have familiarization with maybe some shooting, and then an advanced activity (maybe competitive) they can come back to in a later year which leads to qualification. 

[Hawk200]

I don't know the answer here. I know that in Texas we shoot 22s at encampment > 2 firing orders over three hours, I believe 3 sets of 40rds on a target that I guess is 20 meter or something, I don't know exactly, and that results in authorization to wear the lower level of the multiple badges listed above. There's official PAs from Wg & the whole thing. Now, if that's a long, wide, & high misinterpretation of the reg or not, I don't know. If that is the case, I'd like to find out.

Now, I got no problem with a shooting program. I'm not sure going thru NRA is the best way (and their badges look like crap on our uniforms). I think I'd rather go thru CMP which can lead to badges they can keep in the military. And military qualification under the AFI allowing award of the AF small arms mksmnshp ribbon, which they can also keep. If we're going to stick with NRA, I'd rather ditch their badges & use an internal ribbon with a color/pattern similar to AF. That de-emphasizes the importance more in line with reality & gives a better appearance recognizable for what it is.

I got no problem with shooting as an element of encampments, but we (at least my wg) use a massive amount of training time on it, with an already condensed schedule. I'd rather just have familiarization with maybe some shooting, and then an advanced activity (maybe competitive) they can come back to in a later year which leads to qualification. 

I can't find find a pic of the badge, but I have seen an actual badge. I was helping out a new commander in another unit, and one of the nights I was there, they had a uniform inspection. One of the cadets was wearing the Jr NRA Marksmanship badge.

Being the one who usually found the answers when it came to uniforms, he asked me if the badge was legal. Told him it was, and even showed him in the manual. I asked the cadet how long it took him to be eligible for it, and he told me he'd been competing for almost two years. I was surprised to actually see one.

The basic problem is that people see "Junior National Rifle Association Marskmanship badge" and they think "Oh, I can wear any NRA badge I want to!". In some cases, they don't know better. In a lot of cases, they're going to do it their way, and as far as they're concerned, you will accept their rationalization whether you like it or not.

The "badges" that people keep posting links to at the NRA materials store are not even junior badges, anyone can earn them. The NRA also doesn't call them "badges", they refer to them as "medals".

The manual says in black and white: "Junior National Rifle Association Marskmanship badge". Anything that does not say that on it, isn't the right thing.

There's a lot of arguement of "we've been doing this like this for XX years, and noone told us it was wrong, so it's OK." or else "We've done it before." Rationalization does not stand up to facts.

What the original thread started with is someone went shooting. They finished and were told they "could get a badge". That person decided that since that's what they were told, they are going to get one and wear it, come hell or high water. Ten to one, they simply took it as gospel because that's what they heard. I know they didn't read it in an offical CAP publication.

Now, anyone can earn an NRA badge. But when it comes to wear, only what's listed in 39-1 is authorized to wear.

[DNall]

Well okay I understand all that, but as far as I know there is not currently any such thing as a "Jr NRA marksmanship badge." I know there is a Jr NRA Marksmanship program, which awards four badges with multiple levels each as you progress through the program. The initial badge is very easy to earn. Progressing require qualification at that standard many times over before being allowed to fire for the next higher level, then the process repeats a couple more times till you max out the program.

Is it possible the kid was wearing a match won award badge rather than a qualification program badge? That happens with CMP & you have to tell people to wear the correct badge.

[jb512]

I don't know the answer here. I know that in Texas we shoot 22s at encampment > 2 firing orders over three hours, I believe 3 sets of 40rds on a target that I guess is 20 meter or something, I don't know exactly, and that results in authorization to wear the lower level of the multiple badges listed above. There's official PAs from Wg & the whole thing. Now, if that's a long, wide, & high misinterpretation of the reg or not, I don't know. If that is the case, I'd like to find out.

Now, I got no problem with a shooting program. I'm not sure going thru NRA is the best way (and their badges look like crap on our uniforms). I think I'd rather go thru CMP which can lead to badges they can keep in the military. And military qualification under the AFI allowing award of the AF small arms mksmnshp ribbon, which they can also keep. If we're going to stick with NRA, I'd rather ditch their badges & use an internal ribbon with a color/pattern similar to AF. That de-emphasizes the importance more in line with reality & gives a better appearance recognizable for what it is.

I got no problem with shooting as an element of encampments, but we (at least my wg) use a massive amount of training time on it, with an already condensed schedule. I'd rather just have familiarization with maybe some shooting, and then an advanced activity (maybe competitive) they can come back to in a later year which leads to qualification. 

I can't find find a pic of the badge, but I have seen an actual badge. I was helping out a new commander in another unit, and one of the nights I was there, they had a uniform inspection. One of the cadets was wearing the Jr NRA Marksmanship badge.

Being the one who usually found the answers when it came to uniforms, he asked me if the badge was legal. Told him it was, and even showed him in the manual. I asked the cadet how long it took him to be eligible for it, and he told me he'd been competing for almost two years. I was surprised to actually see one.

The basic problem is that people see "Junior National Rifle Association Marskmanship badge" and they think "Oh, I can wear any NRA badge I want to!". In some cases, they don't know better. In a lot of cases, they're going to do it their way, and as far as they're concerned, you will accept their rationalization whether you like it or not.

The "badges" that people keep posting links to at the NRA materials store are not even junior badges, anyone can earn them. The NRA also doesn't call them "badges", they refer to them as "medals".

The manual says in black and white: "Junior National Rifle Association Marskmanship badge". Anything that does not say that on it, isn't the right thing.

There's a lot of arguement of "we've been doing this like this for XX years, and noone told us it was wrong, so it's OK." or else "We've done it before." Rationalization does not stand up to facts.

What the original thread started with is someone went shooting. They finished and were told they "could get a badge". That person decided that since that's what they were told, they are going to get one and wear it, come hell or high water. Ten to one, they simply took it as gospel because that's what they heard. I know they didn't read it in an offical CAP publication.

Now, anyone can earn an NRA badge. But when it comes to wear, only what's listed in 39-1 is authorized to wear.

Until you can find this mysterious badge and refute the current NRA marksmanship program that is currently authorized for the cadet program, we will continue the process.

[SAR-EMT1]

Heres a monkey wrench...

I obtained the AF Marksman Ribbon in College ROTC and wear it on my blues

Can CAP SENIOR MEMBERS fire the AF course and earn/wear the AF ribbon OR is the AF Marksman Ribbon restricted to cadets?

[JayT]

Heres a monkey wrench...

I obtained the AF Marksman Ribbon in College ROTC and wear it on my blues

Can CAP SENIOR MEMBERS fire the AF course and earn/wear the AF ribbon OR is the AF Marksman Ribbon restricted to cadets?

Considering that 39-1 doesn't list either as awards that CAP MEMBERS can earn, the point is a bit moot, isn't it?

[Pylon]

Considering that 39-1 doesn't list either as awards that CAP MEMBERS can earn, the point is a bit moot, isn't it?

CAPM 39-1 does not have any say over what awards people can and cannot earn, nor the criteria for earning them.  Furthermore, it most certainly doesn't have a say in what the DoD and the Air Force can do with their awards either.  If the Air Force wishes to award the Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon to a CAP member, they can; it is actually laid out in one of their AFI's specifically noting CAP members.

What CAPM 39-1 can do is restrict, prohibit or permit the wear of awards which people have received.

CAPM 39-1 doesn't permit CAP members to wear the Presidential Medal of Freedom, for example.  Does that mean that CAPM 39-1 stops the POTUS from awarding it to a CAP member?  No.  It just means they can't wear it on their CAP uniforms.

CAPM 39-1 doesn't permit CAP members to wear the AF SAEMR if they didn't earn it during service in the Armed Forces.  Does that mean that CAP is telling the Air Force what to do with their ribbons and awards?  No.  It's just telling CAP members that if they are legitimately awarded an Armed Forces decoration, ribbon, medal or award, and they're not at the time a member of the Armed Forces, they simply can't wear it on their CAP uniform.  They've still earned the award/ribbon/decoration.

CAPM 39-1 doesn't permit CAP members from WWII to wear the Air Medal's they received for their war service.  Does that mean that FDR was wrong to present those first Air Medals to two CAP members for their CAP service?  Absolutely not.  They've still earned those Air Medals and should be proud of that.  It does however mean that if any of those WWII members are still in CAP, they can't wear those Air Medals anywhere on their CAP uniform.

See the difference?  Awarding criteria for CAP and AF/DoD/U.S. Federal decorations are established by a variety of regulations.  Wearing earned decorations, however, is where CAPM 39-1 comes in and starts adding restrictions.

[DNall]

^ noted, and I would agree with that interpretation of the wording, and also agree that it needs to be changed.

However, the official ruling from NHQ regarding the awarded Army civilian ribbons to IAWG members was that they could wear them. I'm not saying they were correct in that interpretation, but it is the one they made.

According to the AFI... members of college AFROTC while at Field Training, USAF Academy cadets, and personnel of Civil Air Patrol at any DoD range facility with DoD ranger control officer, may fire for qualification with the M16 series and/or service pistol (M9), for which they earn the AF Small Arms Marksmanship medal. Note there is no mention of cadets.

As I understand encampment, back when it was on AF bases that weren't so overcrowded... cadets would fire on a DoD range. If there was time left then some adults might be allowed to fire. This reg grants award of the AF ribbon for those instances.

[arajca]

CAPM 39-1 doesn't permit CAP members to wear the Presidential Medal of Freedom, for example.  Does that mean that CAPM 39-1 stops the POTUS from awarding it to a CAP member?  No.  It just means they can't wear it on their CAP uniforms.

snip

See the difference?  Awarding criteria for CAP and AF/DoD/U.S. Federal decorations are established by a variety of regulations.  Wearing earned decorations, however, is where CAPM 39-1 comes in and starts adding restrictions.

May I direct your attention to CAPM 39-1, Table 5-3 "Order of Precedence for Wear of US Military Awards and Decorations on the CAP AF-style Uniform", Cell 42, which reads:

42. United States Nonmilitary Decorations

Would you call the PMF as US Nonmilitary decoration? I would. As such it is authorized for wear.

Also, see CAPM 39-1, para 5-4:

5-4. Military Service Awards. Military service ribbons may be worn on the CAP AF-style uniform
provided they were awarded in writing by competent military authority. Awards of the Air Force,
Army, Navy, Marine Corps, or Coast Guard will be worn in the order prescribed by the awarding
service, subject to the following: In all cases of relative priority, Air Force awards will take precedence.
See Table 5-3. Awards for wars, campaigns, expeditions etc., will be worn in chronological sequence.

I'm not seeing where

It's just telling CAP members that if they are legitimately awarded an Armed Forces decoration, ribbon, medal or award, and they're not at the time a member of the Armed Forces, they simply can't wear it on their CAP uniform.

comes from. All I see is "awarded by in writing competent military authority". Nothing about the military status - or lack thereof - of the member at the time.

[MIKE]

CAPR 39-3 is what you want, not CAPM 39-1.  CAPR 39-3 includes the restrictive language.

Edited to add: and since everyone keeps bringing this up:

2.3. Handgun Orientation Training. Handgun orientation training may be conducted for United States
Air Force Academy (USAFA) Cadets, Reserve Officer Training Corps (ROTC) officer accessions, and
possibly Civil Air Patrol (CAP) personnel. This training consists of classroom instruction in general firearms
safety, basic operation, and marksmanship fundamentals. After completion of classroom training,
students participate in a live-fire session by completing phase II (evaluation) of the handgun Air Force
Qualification Course (AFQC). Trainees earn the Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon (SAEMR) if
they achieve an expert score. This program does not qualify an individual for armed duty. If qualification
is required, personnel must meet the full objectives and requirements in AFMAN 36-2227 for the handgun
AFQC training program.

[Hawk200]

Until you can find this mysterious badge and refute the current NRA marksmanship program that is currently authorized for the cadet program, we will continue the process.

So you're gonna be one of the people that is going do what whatever you feel like, in complete defiance of what is written in black and white in CAP publications.

Good luck with that, and I hope your CAP, and any military, career you have is a short one.

[nesagsar]

CAPR 39-3 is what you want, not CAPM 39-1.  CAPR 39-3 includes the restrictive language.

Edited to add: and since everyone keeps bringing this up:

2.3. Handgun Orientation Training. Handgun orientation training may be conducted for United States
Air Force Academy (USAFA) Cadets, Reserve Officer Training Corps (ROTC) officer accessions, and
possibly Civil Air Patrol (CAP) personnel. This training consists of classroom instruction in general firearms
safety, basic operation, and marksmanship fundamentals. After completion of classroom training,
students participate in a live-fire session by completing phase II (evaluation) of the handgun Air Force
Qualification Course (AFQC). Trainees earn the Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon (SAEMR) if
they achieve an expert score. This program does not qualify an individual for armed duty. If qualification
is required, personnel must meet the full objectives and requirements in AFMAN 36-2227 for the handgun
AFQC training program.

What about M16a2 rifle qualifications though? I earned expert rating as a CAP cadet at encampment on a DoD range.

[jb512]

Until you can find this mysterious badge and refute the current NRA marksmanship program that is currently authorized for the cadet program, we will continue the process.

So you're gonna be one of the people that is going do what whatever you feel like, in complete defiance of what is written in black and white in CAP publications.

Good luck with that, and I hope your CAP, and any military, career you have is a short one.

I'm quite sure that a badge worn on a cadet's pocket is going to have little effect on my career.

Until you can come up with another program or badge and prove us all wrong, the current NRA junior marksmanship program that our cadets shoot, and NRA badges for their qualification scores, will be worn.

[mikeylikey]

Face it, AF will never recognize CAP members for their sacrifices or accomplishments.  Other than the PR stories they write to further the image of the USAF (not CAP) we will never see a CAP member receive a ribbon or badge in our lifetimes. 

Heck The Army National Guard has given more ribbons and badges to CAP members than the Cap's parent service.  Strange, right?!?!

^ I am talking current times, not 1940's.  In the 1940's CAP truly was the full time Auxiliary, don't forget!

[MIKE]

What about M16a2 rifle qualifications though? I earned expert rating as a CAP cadet at encampment on a DoD range.

That is the only reference to CAP and as stated is for handgun orientation only... And you can't wear it anyway, so who cares?

[Hawk200]

Found some badges very similar to the one I've seen. They're on eBay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=250227880226&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=015

The one on the lower right hand side is closest to the one I know of. I attached a copy of the photo.

The ones shown may actually be in compliance.