Revamping CAP decorations.

[JayT]

I was trying to point out how the argument went from "It's cost saving," to "It'll make us look more professional to the regular Air Force," to "It's of benefit to our military members."

Just amusing.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I was trying to point out how the argument went from "It's cost saving," to "It'll make us look more professional to the regular Air Force," to "It's of benefit to our military members."

Just amusing.

I'm not sure where you are finding all these arguments. 

Probably the same place you are finding all of the fat, bearded, donut-eating SM's.

If you would pay attention to the comments instead of continuously engaging in self-loathing of our organization, you would see that several of us have been trying to reach a consensus on what is best for CAP.

[DNall]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I never said cost saving, and I always said good for our members & beneficial to mil/CAP members. I've been very consistent on my reasons for supporting this going back several months to previous discussions. Just like anything in CAP, you'll find there are as many opinions as we have members. People support (or not) things for a host of dif reasons, some of which make sense and some of which are nutso. Some times those people change their minds thru the course of a discussion, and sometimes it's just different people saying different things, but being individually consistent.

First, we're not currently a rescue agency. We search & find mostly nothing, sometimes bodies, extremely rarely a survivor. Someone else then comes to save them, we're not allowed to. In other words, we're not remotely a lifesaving agency.

You're confusing providing lifesaving medical care with finding someone in a lifethreatening situation and causing them to be removed from it either by ourselves or by others that we direct to the site.  That is lifesaving in my book.  As long as what the AFRCC is calling the results of these situations "Saves", I think that is hard to ignore.  [/quote]
Now, if that's your job, than you should not be getting an award for doing it, certainly not just because the circumstance favored you walking up on a live one versus some other guy. You only get awarded when you perform so exceptionally well as to stand out far over & above your peers and your actions should serve as an example to everyone else.... ie incentivizing behavior.

Let me say this one more time... I'm NOT ignoring it. Not in the slightest. We got one award right now for lifesaving. It covers such broad territory & is given out for such minor instances, that it trivializes the thing. I DO think you deserve an award for saving lives, and I think it ought ot be one of several awards based on the level of performance. Hence, we follow the AF's (and everyone else's) example here & use the commendation awards for a single action, versus the way they are usually given which is for a period of exemplary service.

[JayT]

I was trying to point out how the argument went from "It's cost saving," to "It'll make us look more professional to the regular Air Force," to "It's of benefit to our military members."

Just amusing.

I'm not sure where you are finding all these arguments. 

Probably the same place you are finding all of the fat, bearded, donut-eating SM's.

If you would pay attention to the comments instead of continuously engaging in self-loathing of our organization, you would see that several of us have been trying to reach a consensus on what is best for CAP.

If you want to accurse me of hating this organization sir, you better come at me with more then a few posts that contradict your views. If you don't like my views that CAP doesn't need to be closer to the Air Force to accomplish our goals, that's fine with me. But don't you dare question my love of this organization based on a few posts.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I never said cost saving, and I always said good for our members & beneficial to mil/CAP members. I've been very consistent on my reasons for supporting this going back several months to previous discussions. Just like anything in CAP, you'll find there are as many opinions as we have members. People support (or not) things for a host of dif reasons, some of which make sense and some of which are nutso. Some times those people change their minds thru the course of a discussion, and sometimes it's just different people saying different things, but being individually consistent.

First, we're not currently a rescue agency. We search & find mostly nothing, sometimes bodies, extremely rarely a survivor. Someone else then comes to save them, we're not allowed to. In other words, we're not remotely a lifesaving agency.

You're confusing providing lifesaving medical care with finding someone in a lifethreatening situation and causing them to be removed from it either by ourselves or by others that we direct to the site.  That is lifesaving in my book.  As long as what the AFRCC is calling the results of these situations "Saves", I think that is hard to ignore. 

Now, if that's your job, than you should not be getting an award for doing it, certainly not just because the circumstance favored you walking up on a live one versus some other guy. You only get awarded when you perform so exceptionally well as to stand out far over & above your peers and your actions should serve as an example to everyone else.... ie incentivizing behavior.

Let me say this one more time... I'm NOT ignoring it. Not in the slightest. We got one award right now for lifesaving. It covers such broad territory & is given out for such minor instances, that it trivializes the thing. I DO think you deserve an award for saving lives, and I think it ought ot be one of several awards based on the level of performance. Hence, we follow the AF's (and everyone else's) example here & use the commendation awards for a single action, versus the way they are usually given which is for a period of exemplary service.
[/quote]

Dennis:

I THINK that I understand your point.

If a person engages in some action which saves a life, rather than give a "Lifesaving" ribbon, award him a Commendation or Achievement medal, recognizing the totality of the superior performance or heroism, as the case may be.

If heroism is involved, and the nature of the heroism is beyond that which is recognized by the Commendation medal, then an Airman's medal is appropriate, with the fact the a life was saved included in the citation.

In the Army, the guidance I was given was that the Soldier's Medal should be given for heroism of a nature that would justify the Silver Star if it were in combat.  I'm pretty sure the same standard applies in the Air Force.

The only service that provides for a "Lifesaving" award is the USCG, and then it has to be from a maritime incident.

[RiverAux]

Now, if that's your job, than you should not be getting an award for doing it, certainly not just because the circumstance favored you walking up on a live one versus some other guy.

By circumstances you mean that the aircrew or ground teams just happen to find people by random luck? 

Yes, trying to find and rescue people is our "job" so to speak and we should be expected to perform it well.  However, actually getting the desired result in saving a life is an exceptional event in any CAP career.  If we were CG rescue swimmers who probably rescue many, many people every year I agree that a Lifesaving Ribbon for them probably wouldn't be appropriate as the activity would be almost routine for them. 

A specific Lifesaving ribbon is much more justified than the other "I just showed up" ribbons currently in CAP's inventory that you also support, so I don't see any consistency in this point of view. 

[DNall]

You got it Kach. 

Now, if that's your job, than you should not be getting an award for doing it, certainly not just because the circumstance favored you walking up on a live one versus some other guy.

By circumstances you mean that the aircrew or ground teams just happen to find people by random luck? 

No, I mean it's luck of the draw that it was your aircrew/GT assigned that sortie versus someone else. Did you demonstrate remarkable skill that stands out above your peers which caused the person to be located when another team probably would not have done so? That deserves an award, being at the right place at the right time doing your job to standard does not. If anything, the mission staff that sent you there deserve the award, not you.

A specific Lifesaving ribbon is much more justified than the other "I just showed up" ribbons currently in CAP's inventory that you also support, so I don't see any consistency in this point of view. 

Well first of all, we're getting rid of most of those "just showed up" ribbons.

Second, do you understand why I'm saying one generic lifesaving ribbon is not adequate? Only the CG has lifesaving medals, and they have a silver, gold, and then the CG medal, plus use the ach/comm/merit svc medals for lesser incidents. The standard for silver is, "such extraordinary effort as to merit recognition." That's not just doing your job. No other service does it that way. They use the system of commendation medals (ach/comm/merit svc; with valor as appropriate), followed by the airman/soldier/cg/etc medal for heroism. You see how that gives you a range over which to recognize dif levels of distinguished action, and thereby makes the meaningful stuff meaningful & the run of the mill stuff run of the mill?

What I have proposed above is CAP ach, CAP comm, CAP merit svc, bronze medal, silver medal, AF airman's medal. Each with valor as appropriate. And, the appropriate level decs can/should go to staff & other members of the team for their contributions.

[Major Carrales]

Oh, you all want CAP to get USAF awards.  How many times must I write that the USAF has other priorities than to handle CAP Awards.

Why is it that CAP would be considered somehow "more viable" if we got USAF ribbons?  Could this be more of that self-loathing mentality that sees us as an "inferior" to all with no consideration to our own intrinsic worth.

"BE MORE PROUD OF WHAT YOU ARE THAN ASHAMED OF WHAT YOU ARE NOT!"

If the USAF wants to grant CAP members USAF awards, so be it.  Let is come from them.  It is what would make that a singular honor.  However, make it (USAF AWARDS) commonplace and it is diminished in its stature and taxes the USAF with issues that it best reserved for Active Duty and Reserse Airmen.  We as CAP cannot and should not propose or demand USAF awards.  That is likely the domain of so called "Bring Crazy" CAP officers.

We have enough awards right now, not too many and not to little.  STATUS QUO is fine.

[DNall]

Joe,
I'm perfectly happy with what I am. This is about improving CAP by making award meaningful & incentivizing the behavior we want/need to achieve that.

CG is pretty busy, but they find the time to recognize CGAux members from time to time for exceptional service. Maybe the reason behind that is it strengthens CGAux & improves/reinforces the relationship, which is all beneficial to the CG.

The very few AF decs we're talking about here are mostly high level stuff that'd be exceptional circumstances, and handled through CAP-USAF that's already dealing only with CAP. The AF awards are on the list, and I think they should be there, but the restructure of the CAP awards is actually what everyone's talked about since I put that list up. I think it makes a lot more sense than what we do now, and really is a low cost change.

You're a PAO, a teacher, and a leader in your area. Do you understand what happens to morale when AF actually reaches out to recognize CAP members with awards? You know that would have a dramatic effect. I think you also understand it has some side benefits like making it advantagous for mil members to also serve with CAP. That's an important resource we've lost out on in recent generations as our military shrunk & national service became passe.

[RiverAux]

No, I mean it's luck of the draw that it was your aircrew/GT assigned that sortie versus someone else. Did you demonstrate remarkable skill that stands out above your peers which caused the person to be located when another team probably would not have done so? That deserves an award, being at the right place at the right time doing your job to standard does not. If anything, the mission staff that sent you there deserve the award, not you.

Yes, there are some cases when anyone with eyeballs might spot somebody, but it is also very common due to the difficulty of the terrain, cover, etc. where it is very likely that quite a few aircrews could fly over the same spot and miss something.  Also, just as possible for ground teams to miss clues that could lead them to the person/site.  Just because you're assigned to the grid where the target is doesn't mean that you're going to find it, you probably won't.  Not because you're incompetent, its because what we ask is actually pretty difficult to do. 

Now, the reason you need a lifesaving ribbon is that most of the time it will be impossible to tell the difference between the totally lucky find that anyone could have seen and one where a high degree of skill or observational concentration was needed.  So, there won't be many opportunities at all to give out commendation or achievement medals.  So, we will end up leaving most of these saves unrecognized by anything significant. 

Or, more likely, we will start automatically giving out one of the new awards to anyone who makes a save. 

Well first of all, we're getting rid of most of those "just showed up" ribbons.

You're actually leaving quite a few in.  I'm talking about the SAR ribbon, CD/HLS ribbon, etc. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

Yeah, he did.

I would roll all of those up into a single ribbon based on a large number of sorties regardless of mission.  Like 100 or 150 sorties regardless of whether they are SAR, DR, CD, O-flight, whatever.

[DNall]

No, I mean it's luck of the draw that it was your aircrew/GT assigned that sortie versus someone else. Did you demonstrate remarkable skill that stands out above your peers which caused the person to be located when another team probably would not have done so? That deserves an award, being at the right place at the right time doing your job to standard does not. If anything, the mission staff that sent you there deserve the award, not you.

Yes, there are some cases when anyone with eyeballs might spot somebody, but it is also very common due to the difficulty of the terrain, cover, etc. where it is very likely that quite a few aircrews could fly over the same spot and miss something.  Also, just as possible for ground teams to miss clues that could lead them to the person/site.  Just because you're assigned to the grid where the target is doesn't mean that you're going to find it, you probably won't.  Not because you're incompetent, its because what we ask is actually pretty difficult to do. 

Being qual'd to the mins in the staff guides is the standard. If any team qual'd to that standard should find be successful, then it does not warrant award. What you just mentioned is standing out above that & does deserve recognition. Beyond that, it's recognizing the degree of the accomplishment that's more important.

Now, the reason you need a lifesaving ribbon is that most of the time it will be impossible to tell the difference between the totally lucky find that anyone could have seen and one where a high degree of skill or observational concentration was needed.  So, there won't be many opportunities at all to give out commendation or achievement medals.  So, we will end up leaving most of these saves unrecognized by anything significant. 

Or, more likely, we will start automatically giving out one of the new awards to anyone who makes a save.

Clearly there's a judgment to be made & and an apprvl process. It's not hard to tell distinguished action. It's not as much about how good their observation skills are as if they hiked in two miles over rough terrain or carried on thru snow, etc - it's all degree of difficulty & performance.   

Well first of all, we're getting rid of most of those "just showed up" ribbons.

You're actually leaving quite a few in.  I'm talking about the SAR ribbon, CD/HLS ribbon, etc.  [/quote]

I thought you were talking about activity & silly stuff, I cut a lot of that crap. CN/HLS, SaR, & DR are the equiv of campaign ribbons (ie iraq war, Afghanistan, gulf war, etc). We can't do campaign ribbons for our kinds of operations. We break it down by mission area. I said something about updating the reqs for DR, and I used the old find ribbon for SaR (all blue is pres unit citation & shouldn't be used). I didn't really go any further then that, and am open minded about the reqs.