U.S. Civil Air Patrol tape

[Hawk200]

Given the choice, I would prefer tapes that matched better on both uniforms because of the aesthetic standpoint,

I think we all would. Personally, I don't care if we had subdued tapes, I just want some that aren't garish in appearance. I think navy blue insignia would be perfect, and perfectly appropriate. Darker tape, but not necessarily subdued. And considering that no-one in the military wears blue tapes on any form of camo uniform, it's not like we would be confused with the military services.

....my point above was just that there is no justification from a camouflage angle, and has been pointed out on 1.256 trillion occasions, camouflage uniforms on non-combatant rescue people, (from a mission standpoint only) is silly.

This keeps coming up, but so far no-one has ever presented a situation where the camo impeded or caused a mission to end distastrously.

What I wouldn't mind seeing is a legtimate report on it. Caveat: The crew must have been properly equipped for the mission, carrying everything they should have been and wearing the required orange vest.

No reports on some moron group that walked out in the woods with just an L-Per and wearing facepaint.

If camo is really such a negative, then show me real circumstances where it was a liability. Otherwise, the argument is either for the sake of argument, or of an anti-military nature.

[Eclipse]

If camo is really such a negative, then show me real circumstances where it was a liability. Otherwise, the argument is either for the sake of argument, or of an anti-military nature.

We wear camo because Big Brother Blue does, I don't' have any issue with that, nor would I work to change it.
I don't believe camo is necessarily a liability, either, as long as the required vest is worn as well, but there's also no advantage in it for our operations.

[Hawk200]

If camo is really such a negative, then show me real circumstances where it was a liability. Otherwise, the argument is either for the sake of argument, or of an anti-military nature.

We wear camo because Big Brother Blue does, I don't' have any issue with that, nor would I work to change it.
I don't believe camo is necessarily a liability, either, as long as the required vest is worn as well, but there's also no advantage in it for our operations.

If it isn't or doesn't create a problem, then why bring it up?

I'm replying to your post because it's the most recent on this, Eclipse, but there are plenty here with a similar reaction. I only ask because, to me, it seems to be an anti-military sentiment.  I also believe that more than a few with this reaction also don't like the military aspect of CAP.

People can get these items pretty inexpensively, and in decent shape if they shop smart. But when the camo comes up, there are a bunch of knee-jerk reactions of "We don't need camo for SAR".

I guess the almost Pavlovian response is what I find most puzzling.

[Eclipse]

We don't need camo for SAR.

No one does.  For SAR you need bright, annoying, eye-bleeding colors.

I like my camo, would prefer we had subdued tapes, and think they look a mile better, however there is no specific justification on a safety or operational level for changing the tape color.  If USAF says we have to be distinctive, then I would prefer the tape be a closer color to the garment, and we just go with bright lettering.

For CAP it is only an aesthetic situation, which is fine, as long as that's why we're doing it.

[JayT]

Subdued nametapes really have little meaning to someone that isn't wearing a compatible uniform. 

Or to a service organization which has no need to be camouflaged...

Fine......break out the orange t-shirts, and neon green sweatpants.  This topic of subdued anything has really been beaten to a pulp.  There are two sides, the ones that want to ditch BDU's (and everything military) and those that like to get FREE BDU's from the military and have no problem wearing them. 

Seriously, Eclipse not directed primarily at you, but there are others here who have previously stated they hate the BDU's and everything on the AF style side because it makes them feel "weird" to wear them, or is disrespectful to the military community if they put them on.  Well, I would rather have CAP members wearing them, instead of the punk ass kid down the street who is waiting to join the local gang, or the car mechanic at the local garage, or the guy who took a pair and made some funky cutoffs to be sexier in the local hood. 

If those of you who can't stand wearing them because of personal reasons don't want to wear them, then don't.  That is why there are other options available.  However, we look like circus clowns when we wear BDU's with orange and pink and green and ultramarine blue doo-dads all sewn wherever. 

As far as subdues tapes and patches, I don't care anylonger.  I am apparently in the minority that thought we could look "cleaner and crisper" if we got rid of Ultramarine Blue and White everything.

Where do I start?

First, its insulting that you seem to be pouting about the fact we all don't agree with you about the subdued tapes.

Many of our members are wearing New York Yankees jackets or whatnot over their BDU anyhow, so how clean and crisp does that look? As I've said before, sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken, and subdued tapes and patchs will not make us more professional.

Second, there aren't just two sides to this debate. I'm all for keeping the BDUs, and going to the ABU eventually, but keeping the blue tapes. That doesn't mean I wanna 'break out the orange tee shirts," it just means I don't think we have any reason to change our heritage (the blue tapes) because some of our members want to pretend they're in the full time Auxiliary/Unpaid Air Force Reserve or whatever.

I do wear the blue BDUs, because I'm about five pounds over weight, and I just like them better. I don't hate the military style uniforms at all. I just don't wear them. If I didn't have the option of Blue BDUs, then I'd wear the regular BDUs, simple as that.

But several other arguments don't make sense. My unit has never gotten free BDUs from anywhere, and unless I'm mistaken, not many other units have either lately.

[Hawk200]

If USAF says we have to be distinctive, then I would prefer the tape be a closer color to the garment, and we just go with bright lettering.

For CAP it is only an aesthetic situation, which is fine, as long as that's why we're doing it.

Apparently, we agree on that issue. I doubt that totally subdued tapes are the be-all, end-all for most people. We just want something a little less visually shocking. Darker blue would be nice, even if the lettering was still white. A few State Guards wear just that, and it actually looks pretty good.

Many of our members are wearing New York Yankees jackets or whatnot over their BDU anyhow, so how clean and crisp does that look?

So we don't need anything else because we have members doing something wrong anyway? And yes, not complying with the manual is wrong.

...it just means I don't think we have any reason to change our heritage (the blue tapes) because some of our members want to pretend they're in the full time Auxiliary/Unpaid Air Force Reserve or whatever.

And there's that argument again. Some people seem to think that it's all "pretend" when there's a want for something that looks better. We need to have distinctive differences from the Air Force mostly to maintain our uniqueness and missions. But we don't have to look clownish, and we do.

There is a limit to "heritage". We've changed uniforms when the Air Force did. There's a lot of practical reasons for it. "Heritage" is only a legitimate argument to a point.

I do wear the blue BDUs, because I'm about five pounds over weight, and I just like them better. I don't hate the military style uniforms at all. I just don't wear them. If I didn't have the option of Blue BDUs, then I'd wear the regular BDUs, simple as that.

Nice to hear you have a reason. You have come in here before stating that "BBDU's look more professional". Neither one looks more "professional" than the other. A person in either can look unprofessional if they don't wear them properly. Looking professional is about the individual, not the uniform.

You're showing a great deal of professionalism by wearing a proper uniform. Many people would have said "It's only five pounds", and just worn the wrong one.

But several other arguments don't make sense. My unit has never gotten free BDUs from anywhere, and unless I'm mistaken, not many other units have either lately.

One, a lot of unit logistics personnel are very proactive about getting uniforms for their people. They look out for their team.

Two, just because you've never gotten BDU's free, do you think that it's never happened?

As far as the tapes go, the "U.S. CIVIL AIR PATROL" tapes were a little busy. Too much lettering can just look crowded. These are things that should have been considered. One question that was asked with them is how it would fit on persons of smaller stature. Apparently, that question was never answered. Ever thought about why?

Anyway, someone posted some minutes showing that the USCAP tapes are out. For now, the option is to put the old ones back on, or just wear out your uniform. There's another one coming fairly soon.

[RogueLeader]

I do wear the blue BDUs, because I'm about five pounds over weight, and I just like them better. I don't hate the military style uniforms at all. I just don't wear them. If I didn't have the option of Blue BDUs, then I'd wear the regular BDUs, simple as that.

Shall we go back in time a little?

No, I would not wear subuded tapes if I had the option of, becaues I wear the Corporate uniforms. To be nineteen years old in a clear military uniform is unpleasant for me (see my CS post about why I don't wear military style uniforms anymore.)

We're not the USAFAux except under certain circumstances, despite the fact we still tell new members thats what we are.

Seems to be a mismatch- from then to now, unless you have reconsidered- which is fine by me.

[JayT]

If USAF says we have to be distinctive, then I would prefer the tape be a closer color to the garment, and we just go with bright lettering.

For CAP it is only an aesthetic situation, which is fine, as long as that's why we're doing it.

Apparently, we agree on that issue. I doubt that totally subdued tapes are the be-all, end-all for most people. We just want something a little less visually shocking. Darker blue would be nice, even if the lettering was still white. A few State Guards wear just that, and it actually looks pretty good.

Many of our members are wearing New York Yankees jackets or whatnot over their BDU anyhow, so how clean and crisp does that look?

So we don't need anything else because we have members doing something wrong anyway? And yes, not complying with the manual is wrong.

...it just means I don't think we have any reason to change our heritage (the blue tapes) because some of our members want to pretend they're in the full time Auxiliary/Unpaid Air Force Reserve or whatever.

And there's that argument again. Some people seem to think that it's all "pretend" when there's a want for something that looks better. We need to have distinctive differences from the Air Force mostly to maintain our uniqueness and missions. But we don't have to look clownish, and we do.

There is a limit to "heritage". We've changed uniforms when the Air Force did. There's a lot of practical reasons for it. "Heritage" is only a legitimate argument to a point.

I do wear the blue BDUs, because I'm about five pounds over weight, and I just like them better. I don't hate the military style uniforms at all. I just don't wear them. If I didn't have the option of Blue BDUs, then I'd wear the regular BDUs, simple as that.

Nice to hear you have a reason. You have come in here before stating that "BBDU's look more professional". Neither one looks more "professional" than the other. A person in either can look unprofessional if they don't wear them properly. Looking professional is about the individual, not the uniform.

You're showing a great deal of professionalism by wearing a proper uniform. Many people would have said "It's only five pounds", and just worn the wrong one.

But several other arguments don't make sense. My unit has never gotten free BDUs from anywhere, and unless I'm mistaken, not many other units have either lately.

One, a lot of unit logistics personnel are very proactive about getting uniforms for their people. They look out for their team.

Two, just because you've never gotten BDU's free, do you think that it's never happened?

As far as the tapes go, the "U.S. CIVIL AIR PATROL" tapes were a little busy. Too much lettering can just look crowded. These are things that should have been considered. One question that was asked with them is how it would fit on persons of smaller stature. Apparently, that question was never answered. Ever thought about why?

Anyway, someone posted some minutes showing that the USCAP tapes are out. For now, the option is to put the old ones back on, or just wear out your uniform. There's another one coming fairly soon.

Certainly, I've gotten uniform stuff from the local ANG base, as well from local JROTC units. But the majority of my stuff comes from the Hock and local surplus stores. Like I said, its really not worth it for me to drive to a AAFEX.

I think the problem comes down to the fact that things vary so widely between units. If your unit gets a ton of free uniforms, awesome. I wish mine did.

I definately don't wanna remove the 'military' from CAP, and I don't want the ES crowd to take over to.

I'm a firm believer in the idea that people conform to the organization, not the other way around. Some people join CAP to fly more and hang out with other pilots, some join to teach, some join to relive their military days, some join because they want to be part of some search and rescue task force. CAP is all of those things, and none of those things depending on how you look at it, and our uniforms reflect that. Sometimes the flight suit is the right uniform for a situation (flying and flight related activies.). Sometimes BDUs/BlueDUs/utilities are the right uniform (field work, certain classroom activities, etc). Sometimes service dress is proper (everyday duties, funerals, parades, etc).

And as much as some people hate it, sometimes the blazer and golf shirt are proper. To be, those uniforms are perfect for Aerospace education, and other interactions with more "civilian" agencies.

Basically, what I'm trying to say, is that I try to accept CAP as a whole. I don't want to ditch the military side, nore do I believe its the only way in CAP.

[Eclipse]

But several other arguments don't make sense. My unit has never gotten free BDUs from anywhere, and unless I'm mistaken, not many other units have either lately.

Don't know why you can't get them - we're swimming in camo, and the DRMO's are drowning in them - now that the Army officially cut over, it'll just get worse (for them, better for us).

You just need an LG who's willing to go get the stuff.

[Hawk200]

I definately don't wanna remove the 'military' from CAP, and I don't want the ES crowd to take over to.

We definitely agree on that issue. I don't think ES is the only mission, although some do.

Basically, what I'm trying to say, is that I try to accept CAP as a whole. I don't want to ditch the military side, nore do I believe its the only way in CAP.

Good to know. I don't want to ditch a corporate side either, it allows us a "payday" instead of being stuck with just ELT chases, or lost people. Branching out never hurts.

Back to the topic that came up: nametapes. I'm not one of the folks that thinks that we have to have standard Air Force tapes, and I don't think many that want something better are either. If we did that, we wouldn't stand out from AF personnel, and we need to.

The ultramarine blue strips are becoming more expensive than a lot of the readily available fabric strip nametapes. Nice advantage to the fabric strip, it doesn't tend to shrink up like the woven stuff does. The most common blue ones are navy and midnite. Both of which match Air Force NCO stripes quite well (yeah, we need to start thinking about them too).

I think a really distinctive concept is a mix of some old Air Force, and some of our stuff. There was a time that the Air Force allowed bright color patches on BDU's (it was back in the days when the leather nametag was being phased out, and nametapes were coming back).

I would flip it. Dark blue tapes and rank insignia. For badges/wings and patches, subdue those in complimentary colors to the ABU. The darker accoutrements would be pretty notable as "not Air Force", even at a distance. Subduing the patches would keep it from being too colorful, or looking ridiculous. Nametapes and rank are available right now.

Just an idea. Personally, I prefer to not be mistaken for an Air Force officer, we don't need to look exactly like them to do our jobs.

[mikeylikey]

Anyone that has the ability to read (most in the military) would not mistake a CAP Officer for an AF Officer.  Subdued tapes or not, the freaking thing says "Civil Air Patrol", not "US AIR FORCE".

[JayT]

Anyone that has the ability to read (most in the military) would not mistake a CAP Officer for an AF Officer.  Subdued tapes or not, the freaking thing says "Civil Air Patrol", not "US AIR FORCE".

That's not true. When you have a member wearing subdued rank insignia, subdued patches, and upsubdued tapes, it'll take a few seconds to read it. Throw on an assult vest or a set of web gear, and you have a guy wearing subdued everything.

Freakish thing.....intresting choice of words.....don't you have pride in your membership in Civil Air Patrol?

Maybe when we convert to ABUs, a darker blue would be better. What color does the Coast Guard wear? I know my local cops wear a mix of Ultramarine and Navy blue with their patrol uniform (EMT pants with a modified Blue BDU shirt.)

[JayT]

I do wear the blue BDUs, because I'm about five pounds over weight, and I just like them better. I don't hate the military style uniforms at all. I just don't wear them. If I didn't have the option of Blue BDUs, then I'd wear the regular BDUs, simple as that.

Shall we go back in time a little?

No, I would not wear subuded tapes if I had the option of, becaues I wear the Corporate uniforms. To be nineteen years old in a clear military uniform is unpleasant for me (see my CS post about why I don't wear military style uniforms anymore.)

We're not the USAFAux except under certain circumstances, despite the fact we still tell new members thats what we are.

Seems to be a mismatch- from then to now, unless you have reconsidered- which is fine by me.

People change, and so do opinions. The pissed off kid who wrote those words died a few months back, and now I'm here.

[RogueLeader]

Glad to hear it.  Congrats on maturing.

[JayT]

Glad to hear it.  Congrats on maturing.

Thanks. It almost killed me in the process.

[Hawk200]

Maybe when we convert to ABUs, a darker blue would be better. What color does the Coast Guard wear?

The Coastie tapes I've seen would be perfect. They're navy blue fabric, with white lettering. Matches the dark blue rank insignia already available from Vanguard, some people could literally put this concept together tomorrow (provided that they have access to an embroidery shop, and Vanguard doesn't take three weeks to ship their order )

Thanks. It almost killed me in the process.

It seems like life tries to do that to all of us. Sometimes there's a lot of satisfaction to living another day.

[Eclipse]

^there are plenty of alternative vendors selling nametapes in those colors already - no need to run a pilot program, just update the manual and let us order them...

[RogueLeader]

^there are plenty of alternative vendors selling nametapes in those colors already - no need to run a pilot program, just update the manual and let us order them...

That sounds waaayyyyy to easy. . . .

[JohnKachenmeister]

Subdued nametapes really have little meaning to someone that isn't wearing a compatible uniform. 

Or to a service organization which has no need to be camouflaged...

Fine......break out the orange t-shirts, and neon green sweatpants.  This topic of subdued anything has really been beaten to a pulp.  There are two sides, the ones that want to ditch BDU's (and everything military) and those that like to get FREE BDU's from the military and have no problem wearing them. 

Seriously, Eclipse not directed primarily at you, but there are others here who have previously stated they hate the BDU's and everything on the AF style side because it makes them feel "weird" to wear them, or is disrespectful to the military community if they put them on.  Well, I would rather have CAP members wearing them, instead of the punk ass kid down the street who is waiting to join the local gang, or the car mechanic at the local garage, or the guy who took a pair and made some funky cutoffs to be sexier in the local hood. 

If those of you who can't stand wearing them because of personal reasons don't want to wear them, then don't.  That is why there are other options available.  However, we look like circus clowns when we wear BDU's with orange and pink and green and ultramarine blue doo-dads all sewn wherever. 

As far as subdues tapes and patches, I don't care anylonger.  I am apparently in the minority that thought we could look "cleaner and crisper" if we got rid of Ultramarine Blue and White everything.

Where do I start?

First, its insulting that you seem to be pouting about the fact we all don't agree with you about the subdued tapes.

Many of our members are wearing New York Yankees jackets or whatnot over their BDU anyhow, so how clean and crisp does that look? As I've said before, sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken, and subdued tapes and patchs will not make us more professional.

Second, there aren't just two sides to this debate. I'm all for keeping the BDUs, and going to the ABU eventually, but keeping the blue tapes. That doesn't mean I wanna 'break out the orange tee shirts," it just means I don't think we have any reason to change our heritage (the blue tapes) because some of our members want to pretend they're in the full time Auxiliary/Unpaid Air Force Reserve or whatever.

I do wear the blue BDUs, because I'm about five pounds over weight, and I just like them better. I don't hate the military style uniforms at all. I just don't wear them. If I didn't have the option of Blue BDUs, then I'd wear the regular BDUs, simple as that.

But several other arguments don't make sense. My unit has never gotten free BDUs from anywhere, and unless I'm mistaken, not many other units have either lately.

I wear the BBDU too, because I'm a little more than 5 pounds overweight.  I think dark blue tapes simply LOOK BETTER on the uniform.  I am not a wannabe.  I could be called a usta-be, but my preference for darker blue tapes is merely to lose the appearance that the tapes are washed-out and faded against the darker blue uniform.

[ColonelJack]

Glad to hear it.  Congrats on maturing.

Thanks. It almost killed me in the process.

It'll do that sometimes.  Very glad you made it through it all and came out a better person.

Jack