Senior Level Specialty Track credit

[Ozzy]

Hey all, I tried looking up the answer for this but couldn't find it... Is training that you've completed​ applicable for credit for your specialty track? For example, I've been the PD officer for my unit for almost a year now, although I wasn't diligent with getting myself signed off for the tech rating, could I still have the tasks signed off for my Senior PD rating that I have completed?

I would hazard a guess yes since I haven't seen anything yet that states it needs to be completed as a tech-rated PD officer. What say you?

[Eclipse]

Yes. Wait what?

Done is done, but Tech has to be completed befor senior can be completed.

[Alaric]

Hey all, I tried looking up the answer for this but couldn't find it... Is training that you've completed​ applicable for credit for your specialty track? For example, I've been the PD officer for my unit for almost a year now, although I wasn't diligent with getting myself signed off for the tech rating, could I still have the tasks signed off for my Senior PD rating that I have completed?

I would hazard a guess yes since I haven't seen anything yet that states it needs to be completed as a tech-rated PD officer. What say you?

Personally I would not approve it if you were in my squadron.  Poor performance on your part should not be rewarded.  Much like there is an order to ES qualifications there is an order to the specialty tracks.  Complete (and get signed off) as a technician and then move on to Senior especially as one of the things on the Senior checklist is that you spend a year as a technician

[Ozzy]

Hey all, I tried looking up the answer for this but couldn't find it... Is training that you've completed​ applicable for credit for your specialty track? For example, I've been the PD officer for my unit for almost a year now, although I wasn't diligent with getting myself signed off for the tech rating, could I still have the tasks signed off for my Senior PD rating that I have completed?

I would hazard a guess yes since I haven't seen anything yet that states it needs to be completed as a tech-rated PD officer. What say you?

Personally I would not approve it if you were in my squadron.  Poor performance on your part should not be rewarded.  Much like there is an order to ES qualifications there is an order to the specialty tracks.  Complete (and get signed off) as a technician and then move on to Senior especially as one of the things on the Senior checklist is that you spend a year as a technician

Luckily I'm not then and I disagree with you saying this was poor performance and how the "poor performance" should not be rewarded. This is nothing about being rewarded and all about if a task is completed, if appropriate credit should be awarded. In ES, yes, tasks that you have previously completed are transferable to another (and higher) qualification, i.e. GTL tasks that have been completed as a GTM3, 2, and 1 all transfer to GTL and you only have to finish completing GTL specific tasks, you do not have to be reevaluated on those.

And thanks Eclipse, I know Tech needs to be completed before Senior can be completed as usually part of the Senior tasking is that you serve x# of time in a tech level capacity.

[Alaric]

Hey all, I tried looking up the answer for this but couldn't find it... Is training that you've completed​ applicable for credit for your specialty track? For example, I've been the PD officer for my unit for almost a year now, although I wasn't diligent with getting myself signed off for the tech rating, could I still have the tasks signed off for my Senior PD rating that I have completed?

I would hazard a guess yes since I haven't seen anything yet that states it needs to be completed as a tech-rated PD officer. What say you?

Personally I would not approve it if you were in my squadron.  Poor performance on your part should not be rewarded.  Much like there is an order to ES qualifications there is an order to the specialty tracks.  Complete (and get signed off) as a technician and then move on to Senior especially as one of the things on the Senior checklist is that you spend a year as a technician

Luckily I'm not then and I disagree with you saying this was poor performance and how the "poor performance" should not be rewarded. This is nothing about being rewarded and all about if a task is completed, if appropriate credit should be awarded. In ES, yes, tasks that you have previously completed are transferable to another (and higher) qualification, i.e. GTL tasks that have been completed as a GTM3, 2, and 1 all transfer to GTL and you only have to finish completing GTL specific tasks, you do not have to be reevaluated on those.

And thanks Eclipse, I know Tech needs to be completed before Senior can be completed as usually part of the Senior tasking is that you serve x# of time in a tech level capacity.

You're the PD officer and didn't bother to get yourself signed off, as a PD officer myself that's pretty poor performance.  When I was referring to ES qualifications I meant prereqs which must be done before Fam & Prep which are signed off before advanced tasks.  But if your squadron, group, wing lets you get away with it, that's really out of my purview. 

[Eclipse]

Be nice - you know very well a lot of people take care of everyone but themselves and then find themselves
hung out because no one was looking out for them.  BTDT

[Alaric]

Be nice - you know very well a lot of people take care of everyone but themselves and then find themselves
hung out because no one was looking out for them.  BTDT

Then they pay the consequences, its what we teach cadets decisions and actions have consequences.  Learn to live with them

[kwe1009]

There is no real order on how tasks must be completed for any specialty track.  You can complete a task for the senior or master rating and not even have a tech rating.  With that said, you can only earn the ratings in order (technician, senior, master).  The same is true for PD levels.  I actually had all requirements for level IV and V before I complete level III.  Once I completed level III I got the other 2 levels within a week.

[Alaric]

There is no real order on how tasks must be completed for any specialty track.  You can complete a task for the senior or master rating and not even have a tech rating.  With that said, you can only earn the ratings in order (technician, senior, master).  The same is true for PD levels.  I actually had all requirements for level IV and V before I complete level III.  Once I completed level III I got the other 2 levels within a week.

Have a regulatory cite for that, or is an opinion?

[Ozzy]

Hey all, I tried looking up the answer for this but couldn't find it... Is training that you've completed​ applicable for credit for your specialty track? For example, I've been the PD officer for my unit for almost a year now, although I wasn't diligent with getting myself signed off for the tech rating, could I still have the tasks signed off for my Senior PD rating that I have completed?

I would hazard a guess yes since I haven't seen anything yet that states it needs to be completed as a tech-rated PD officer. What say you?

Personally I would not approve it if you were in my squadron.  Poor performance on your part should not be rewarded.  Much like there is an order to ES qualifications there is an order to the specialty tracks.  Complete (and get signed off) as a technician and then move on to Senior especially as one of the things on the Senior checklist is that you spend a year as a technician

Luckily I'm not then and I disagree with you saying this was poor performance and how the "poor performance" should not be rewarded. This is nothing about being rewarded and all about if a task is completed, if appropriate credit should be awarded. In ES, yes, tasks that you have previously completed are transferable to another (and higher) qualification, i.e. GTL tasks that have been completed as a GTM3, 2, and 1 all transfer to GTL and you only have to finish completing GTL specific tasks, you do not have to be reevaluated on those.

And thanks Eclipse, I know Tech needs to be completed before Senior can be completed as usually part of the Senior tasking is that you serve x# of time in a tech level capacity.

You're the PD officer and didn't bother to get yourself signed off, as a PD officer myself that's pretty poor performance.  When I was referring to ES qualifications I meant prereqs which must be done before Fam & Prep which are signed off before advanced tasks.  But if your squadron, group, wing lets you get away with it, that's really out of my purview.

Again, how does not getting signed off mean poor performance? Being in a duty position does not mean you need to be actively working on that specialty track, I'm currently working on my CP Masters and Level 4 as well as my senior ES track.

And get away with what? You keep throwing these statements around but not clarifying them.

[kwe1009]

There is no real order on how tasks must be completed for any specialty track.  You can complete a task for the senior or master rating and not even have a tech rating.  With that said, you can only earn the ratings in order (technician, senior, master).  The same is true for PD levels.  I actually had all requirements for level IV and V before I complete level III.  Once I completed level III I got the other 2 levels within a week.

Have a regulatory cite for that, or is an opinion?

I haven't seen anything that stated you can only sign off on the tasks for the level you are working on.  Do you have a reg to cite for your position?  If not the we are both simply giving opinions.

[Alaric]

There is no real order on how tasks must be completed for any specialty track.  You can complete a task for the senior or master rating and not even have a tech rating.  With that said, you can only earn the ratings in order (technician, senior, master).  The same is true for PD levels.  I actually had all requirements for level IV and V before I complete level III.  Once I completed level III I got the other 2 levels within a week.

Have a regulatory cite for that, or is an opinion?

I haven't seen anything that stated you can only sign off on the tasks for the level you are working on.  Do you have a reg to cite for your position?  If not the we are both simply giving opinions.

I don't and you're correct we are just spouting opinions which means at the end of the day its up to the Chain of Command

[Ozzy]

There is no real order on how tasks must be completed for any specialty track.  You can complete a task for the senior or master rating and not even have a tech rating.  With that said, you can only earn the ratings in order (technician, senior, master).  The same is true for PD levels.  I actually had all requirements for level IV and V before I complete level III.  Once I completed level III I got the other 2 levels within a week.

Have a regulatory cite for that, or is an opinion?

I haven't seen anything that stated you can only sign off on the tasks for the level you are working on.  Do you have a reg to cite for your position?  If not the we are both simply giving opinions.

There isn't a regulation that states that you can't. There is however the Specialty track guides that states "When the commander is satisfied that the student can perform to the level applied for and has  met  the  service  requirements,  s/he  records  award  of  the  rating  in  the  student's  master  record  and  online  in  the  specialty  track administration module in E-Services."

As long as the commander is happy and approves then it's okay.

But y'know, there is precedence where you can complete PD schools before you need to and it'll apply to the level once you get to there. i.e National Staff college before having level 4 completed will still be applicable for level 5, you won't need to take it again when you have level 4 completed...

[Alaric]

Hey all, I tried looking up the answer for this but couldn't find it... Is training that you've completed​ applicable for credit for your specialty track? For example, I've been the PD officer for my unit for almost a year now, although I wasn't diligent with getting myself signed off for the tech rating, could I still have the tasks signed off for my Senior PD rating that I have completed?

I would hazard a guess yes since I haven't seen anything yet that states it needs to be completed as a tech-rated PD officer. What say you?

Personally I would not approve it if you were in my squadron.  Poor performance on your part should not be rewarded.  Much like there is an order to ES qualifications there is an order to the specialty tracks.  Complete (and get signed off) as a technician and then move on to Senior especially as one of the things on the Senior checklist is that you spend a year as a technician

Luckily I'm not then and I disagree with you saying this was poor performance and how the "poor performance" should not be rewarded. This is nothing about being rewarded and all about if a task is completed, if appropriate credit should be awarded. In ES, yes, tasks that you have previously completed are transferable to another (and higher) qualification, i.e. GTL tasks that have been completed as a GTM3, 2, and 1 all transfer to GTL and you only have to finish completing GTL specific tasks, you do not have to be reevaluated on those.

And thanks Eclipse, I know Tech needs to be completed before Senior can be completed as usually part of the Senior tasking is that you serve x# of time in a tech level capacity.

You're the PD officer and didn't bother to get yourself signed off, as a PD officer myself that's pretty poor performance.  When I was referring to ES qualifications I meant prereqs which must be done before Fam & Prep which are signed off before advanced tasks.  But if your squadron, group, wing lets you get away with it, that's really out of my purview.

Again, how does not getting signed off mean poor performance? Being in a duty position does not mean you need to be actively working on that specialty track, I'm currently working on my CP Masters and Level 4 as well as my senior ES track.

And get away with what? You keep throwing these statements around but not clarifying them.

You're the PD officer, you couldn't be bothered to get your self signed off as a tech, but now want to get signed off on senior tasks.  To me (and like everyone else their just opinions) that's poor performance from a PD officer.

Get away with getting signed off on senior tasks without being a tech.

Clear now?

[Ozzy]

You're the PD officer, you couldn't be bothered to get your self signed off as a tech, but now want to get signed off on senior tasks.  To me (and like everyone else their just opinions) that's poor performance from a PD officer.

Get away with getting signed off on senior tasks without being a tech.

Clear now?

Again, you can do a duty position without actively working on the rating. If the member at a later time wants to start working on the rating, they should get credit for tasks that they have completed and are able to substantiate. If the commander doesn't think it's kosher then they can always decline the rating approval and state why and how the member can rectify it.

[SarDragon]

Well, it's been an SUI item in the past to verify that folks serving in specific positions are enrolled in the corresponding specialty track.

As for NSC before completing Level IV, here's what 50-17 says:

Personnel  desiring  to  attend  NSC  must  hold  the  grade  of  CAP  Major  or  above (this  is  not  waiverable),  OR  hold  the  grade  of  CAP  Senior  Master  Sergeant  or Chief  Master Sergeant AND have   attend Region   Staff   College (or   equivalent).

[EMT-83]

A staff officer is not allowed to make up their own rules, especially when it can impede a member's progress. Any staff officer doing so should be subject to disciplinary action.

[arajca]

b. When assigned to an authorized duty position, the member will also be enrolled in the appropriate specialty track of the CAP Professional Development Program unless he/she has already earned the master's rating in that specialty.  When a member is assigned to more than one duty position, he/she will enroll in the specialty track for the primary duty.  Training in remaining specialties is encouraged. Note: For promotion purposes, the highest skill rating earned, in any specialty, will be considered, regardless of the member's skill level in his or her primary duty.

Staff officer enforcing rules, not making up rules.

On the other hand, having a specialty track rating does not mean you have to be assigned to the associated staff position. I had an Asst. IG that gave our unit a discrepancy because I was not in a PDO slot with my Master PDO rating. At the time, I was CDC (with a Master CP rating). Our PDO only had a senior PDO rating...

[EMT-83]

Hey all, I tried looking up the answer for this but couldn't find it... Is training that you've completed​ applicable for credit for your specialty track? For example, I've been the PD officer for my unit for almost a year now, although I wasn't diligent with getting myself signed off for the tech rating, could I still have the tasks signed off for my Senior PD rating that I have completed?

I would hazard a guess yes since I haven't seen anything yet that states it needs to be completed as a tech-rated PD officer. What say you?

Personally I would not approve it if you were in my squadron.  Poor performance on your part should not be rewarded.  Much like there is an order to ES qualifications there is an order to the specialty tracks.  Complete (and get signed off) as a technician and then move on to Senior especially as one of the things on the Senior checklist is that you spend a year as a technician

Staff officer making up his own rules.

[kwe1009]

I had an Asst. IG that gave our unit a discrepancy because I was not in a PDO slot with my Master PDO rating. At the time, I was CDC (with a Master CP rating). Our PDO only had a senior PDO rating...

Just curious but what reg reference was used to justify that discrepancy?  I'm not aware of any regulation requiring someone to hold a duty position for any reason regardless of their specialty track rating.  Sounds like a very overzealous IG.

[Alaric]

A staff officer is not allowed to make up their own rules, especially when it can impede a member's progress. Any staff officer doing so should be subject to disciplinary action.

Actually not making up my own rules, there is no regulation covering this, therefore it is at the discretion of the commander.  I am the commander therefore it is my decision, unless and until someone can show me a regulation that covers this?

[EMT-83]

Exactly, there is no no regulation so you decided to invent one.

[Alaric]

Exactly, there is no no regulation so you decided to invent one.

No, I used the discretion I am given as a commander to cover an instance which the regulations do not and gave Ozzy my opinion.  What do you do when the regulations do not cover something? I presume you don't sit around wringing your hands and someone makes a decision on what to do?

[Ozzy]

A staff officer is not allowed to make up their own rules, especially when it can impede a member's progress. Any staff officer doing so should be subject to disciplinary action.

Actually not making up my own rules, there is no regulation covering this, therefore it is at the discretion of the commander.  I am the commander therefore it is my decision, unless and until someone can show me a regulation that covers this?

Yet there is. In CAP, a commander declining to approve something needs to give a legitimate reason for declining. Saying it is "Pretty poor performance" when you don't provide any information or documentation to support your view is incorrect. Haven't you learned that in your 8 years in CAP?

[ed - cleaned up language]

[Ravenwings]

Hey Oz, Cadets could be on the Board. Keep it clean please. Mods?

[Alaric]

A staff officer is not allowed to make up their own rules, especially when it can impede a member's progress. Any staff officer doing so should be subject to disciplinary action.

Actually not making up my own rules, there is no regulation covering this, therefore it is at the discretion of the commander.  I am the commander therefore it is my decision, unless and until someone can show me a regulation that covers this?

Yet there is. In CAP, a commander declining to approve something needs to give a legitimate reason for declining. Saying it is "piss Pretty poor performance" when you don't provide any information or documentation to support your view is incorrect. Haven't you learned that in your 8 years in CAP?

And my legitimate reason is that someone is trying to get Senior tasks in a specialty track signed off before they are a technician.  The regulations do not cover this scenario and therefore as a commander I am using my discretion to say this is inappropriate and the specialty track must be done in order

[THRAWN]

From CAPP204: Each level contains Knowledge, Training, and Performance Requirements as well as Service Requirements that must be completed in order to attain each successive rating.

Room full of PD types that can't seem to read their own bloody guide....what's next?

[Майор Хаткевич]

^this.

Reason why my CP Master is still aways off...took my sweet time getting Senior finished up.

[Ozzy]

Thrawn, I see what you are trying to show there but it doesn't say that they 'must be completed in order', it says it 'must be completed in order to'. Meaning the tasks need to be completed before being granted the rating, not that there is any prohibition from completing tasks before having the lower rating.

[THRAWN]

Thrawn, I see what you are trying to show there but it doesn't say that they 'must be completed in order', it says it 'must be completed in order to'. Meaning the tasks need to be completed before being granted the rating, not that there is any prohibition from completing tasks before having the lower rating.

You may be reading too much into it. In plain language, the way that it's written, it would appear that the intent is to do each of the tasks in the order that they're presented.

Personally, I agree with you. It's asinine to not give someone credit for a task that they've obviously mastered because it is further down a checksheet.

[Ozzy]

Yeah... anyways, I consider the topic finished.

[EMT-83]

From CAPP204: Each level contains Knowledge, Training, and Performance Requirements as well as Service Requirements that must be completed in order to attain each successive rating.

Room full of PD types that can't seem to read their own bloody guide....what's next?

From CAPP204: Each level contains Knowledge, Training, and Performance Requirements as well as Service Requirements that must be completed in order to attain each successive rating.

Fixed it for you.

[coudano]

Some are a little fuzzy,

Take a look at this bit from IT Officer Senior Rating

The Information Technology Senior candidate should possess fundamental knowledge of the following:
1. Advanced information systems hardware and software
2. Troubleshooting and resolving of problems with common information systems.
3. Advanced operating systems knowledge including installation, configuration and troubleshooting.
4. Basic networking principles.
5. Intermediate security principles.

So yeah, I had said knowledge of all of these things, and a variety of professional certifications to prove it, before there ever was any such thing as an IT specialty track, at all.

Do I have to go out and re-acquire those knowledges after earning my technician rating?
That seems a bit silly, doesn't it?


Some explicitly state...

Take a look at ITO Senior Rating activity requirement

During the training period, the Information Technology Senior candidate must complete at least five of the following:

So yeah, that means during the time between finishing your technician rating and being awarded your senior, then you need to do these things.

Here's an example from ES Master

Participate in a minimum of six additional missions after qualification in an ES specialty and completion of the ESO Senior Rating

So yeah, I promise you, I completed well more than the total number of missions I ever needed for the whole track before I even became a senior member, let alone enrolled in ES...  However, this explicitly states that I have to have completed six MORE -SINCE- I earned my senior rating.

On the other hand, observe this from the CP Master Rating

Complete Level III of the Senior Member Professional Development program.

Suppose we already had level 3 complete before we ever even enrolled in CP...
Are you saying you have to go re-complete Level 3?

What about this?

Serve as a staff officer responsible for planning and conducting a significant
portion of the Training Leaders of Cadets or Required Staff Training.

So, suppose senior member snuffy carried majority weight to put on a RST for an encampment at which she was a TAC (perhaps a chief tac), while she was only Technician rated.

Does she have to put on -ANOTHER- TLC or RST after she has earned her senior rating?

In my opinion, no.
The one she did counts.




Here's how i've done my specialty tracks personally, and how I ask my people to do them now that i'm a squadron commander...

I compose a draft email, and in that email I list out all of the knowledge and service requirements for the specialty/level that i'm going for.  Then for the knowledge things I type out my "explanation" of that item demonstrating my knowledge of it, in writing.  For the service component, I actually list out the things I did, and when and where...  Then I save that draft, and anytime I have something to add to it, I just edit the draft, update the data, and save it again.

So for example in my draft email for ES Master, for the six missions since earning the senior rating I simply list
1. 17T4600 . 4 Apr 2017
2. 17T4601 . 3 Apr 2017
3. so on, and so forth

If there is a requirement like "Attend a breakout session at a conference" I'll write below that:
Georgia Wing Conference, Peachtree City GA Mar 2017



Once I have answered all of the knowledge and service based items, I'll send that email to the squadron commander and ask to have the skill level approved.  I'll archive a copy for my own records, and so will the squadron commander.  Then i'll start a draft email on the next thing i'm working toward.

It's worked well for me.

[coudano]

From CAPP204: Each level contains Knowledge, Training, and Performance Requirements as well as Service Requirements that must be completed in order to attain each successive rating.

Room full of PD types that can't seem to read their own bloody guide....what's next?

From CAPP204: Each level contains Knowledge, Training, and Performance Requirements as well as Service Requirements that must be completed in order to attain each successive rating.

Fixed it for you.

Let me fix it for you again...

From CAPP204: Each level contains Knowledge, Training, and Performance Requirements as well as Service Requirements that must be completed in order to attain each successive rating.

Reworded,
In order to attain each successive rating, each skill level contains K, T, and PR as well as SR that must be completed.

It does not say

Each skill level contains K, T, and PR as well as SR that must be completed, in order, to attain each successive rating.

And if it did, then you'd open the door to having to do the first thing on the list first,
and the second thing on the list second...
So for Personnel Technician

Demonstrate the ability to process member applications in a timely fashion.
Demonstrate the ability to forward and monitor the processing of confidential screening.
Demonstrate how the candidate has ensured that new members appear in the membership database and receive their membership card in a timely fashion.
Set up a personnel log, and file folders for members,
Demonstrate how to assign members to duty assignments electrically and on paper.
Demonstrate how to process routine promotions electronically and on paper in a timely fashion.
Process routine award and decorations applications in a timely fashion.
Demonstrate the ability to find the proper wear instructions for uniform combinations frequently worn.
List three locations where members may acquire CAP uniforms and insignia.
Successfully complete the online CAPP 200 Test for Technican Rating.
Complete six (6) months experience as a Personnel Officer.
Dates of Service ________________ to ________________

God help you if you pass the test over CAPP 200 prior to Setting up a personnel log and file folders for members...