2017 Conference Registration

Started by MSG Mac, April 21, 2017, 06:16:28 AM

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MSG Mac

Registration site has opened for the 2017 National Conference.

Cost $175 (includes banquet
        $190 for all events
        $105 for Conference only

Room reservations $132/night + Tax of 22.11/night.
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
50 Year Member

Fubar

$ 190.00 - Event
$ 462.33 - Hotel
$ 380.00 - Airfare
$ 100.00 - Meals & Etc

$1,132.33 to attend a three day CAP conference? Too rich for my blood, especially with nothing about what will be happening at the conference being published.

It's hard to create value for these conferences. Anything being announced at the conference gets posted online. Training made available at the conference is also available at the region and wing levels. Obviously it's great to make new friends and meet old pals. For some, hearing something before the rest of the membership or shaking hands with important people holds value to them. It just seems to the majority of the membership, giving up vacation days or simply going unpaid is too much to ask for what the member gets in return for attending the conference.

Being in Texas will help. It's a large wing with plenty of locals who can easily attend. I just wonder how much longer non-profits can afford to host these big national conventions.

FW

Quote from: Fubar on April 21, 2017, 07:28:22 AM
... I just wonder how much longer non-profits can afford to host these big national conventions.

As long as sponsors can be found to pay for the bulk of the event, the longer they will be held.  The Annual Conference used to be a place where new policy could be made.  Today, it is used as, basically, a National Commander's call.  It's also an event where "best practices" can be discussed by participants.  Of course, this could be done online today at a fraction of the cost and time.  I agree time spent at a region or wing conference may be just as rewarding. 

LATORRECA

Wow to expensive

Sent from my HTC Desire 530 using Tapatalk


Fubar

Quote from: FW on April 21, 2017, 12:46:26 PMAs long as sponsors can be found to pay for the bulk of the event, the longer they will be held.

That's a really good point. And attendance isn't a factor for the sponsors who are also vendors we buy lots of expensive toys from.

dogden

I will be there but it is only a 3 hour drive from my house.  ;)
David C Ogden, Lt Col, CAP
Texas Wing, Group IV Commander
GRW#3325

Alaric

Quote from: Fubar on April 21, 2017, 07:28:22 AM
$ 190.00 - Event
$ 462.33 - Hotel
$ 380.00 - Airfare
$ 100.00 - Meals & Etc

$1,132.33 to attend a three day CAP conference? Too rich for my blood, especially with nothing about what will be happening at the conference being published.

It's hard to create value for these conferences. Anything being announced at the conference gets posted online. Training made available at the conference is also available at the region and wing levels. Obviously it's great to make new friends and meet old pals. For some, hearing something before the rest of the membership or shaking hands with important people holds value to them. It just seems to the majority of the membership, giving up vacation days or simply going unpaid is too much to ask for what the member gets in return for attending the conference.

Being in Texas will help. It's a large wing with plenty of locals who can easily attend. I just wonder how much longer non-profits can afford to host these big national conventions.

As long as the people that are required to go (Nat CC, Region CCs Wing CCs) are not reaching into their own pockets to pay for it, they will continue to have it and continue to perpetrate the myth that it is an opportunity for the rank and file members to get training and network.  If I were king for a day there would be no reimbursed travel for conferences, Fortune 500 companies have been using telecons and webinars for years, lets try to be good stewards of taxpayer money eh. 

kwe1009

I have only been to 1 national conference and it was frankly a complete waste.  Most of the seminars that I sat in on quickly turned into gripe sessions with the NHQ people that were running the seminar.  Here is how most of it went:

CAP Member: "Why are we doing X when Y would be cheaper, easier, and would probably generate outside interest?"
NHQ staffer: "We spent a lot of time researching X and are committed to it.  It is a great plan."
CAP Member: "What about Y?"
NHQ staffer: "We didn't consider that because reasons."

rinse and repeat

I haven't seen Wing or Region conferences be much better, especially when you factor in the cost.  Technology has overcome the conference model and we all just need to embrace it.  A conference can easily be replace with WebEx or similar technology for a lot less money.  I'm still not sure why we are not doing RSC and NSC as web conferences either.

etodd

I do not go to my Wing Conferences for all the reasons above. The last one here had a few 45 minute breakout sessions, with all of the info presented stuff that can be found online easily.

Bottom line .... so many folks enjoy that Saturday night rubber chicken dinner and ESPECIALLY the 500 certificates given out with the obligatory photo op. For some it may be the only time each year they wear the full dress blues and get to hang all 30 of their medals for others to see while receiving their certificate.  I get it. Its important for some folks. But its not me.
"Don't try to explain it, just bow your head
Breathe in, breathe out, move on ..."

almostspaatz

Quote from: kwe1009 on April 26, 2017, 08:26:45 PM
I have only been to 1 national conference and it was frankly a complete waste.  Most of the seminars that I sat in on quickly turned into gripe sessions with the NHQ people that were running the seminar.  Here is how most of it went:

CAP Member: "Why are we doing X when Y would be cheaper, easier, and would probably generate outside interest?"
NHQ staffer: "We spent a lot of time researching X and are committed to it.  It is a great plan."
CAP Member: "What about Y?"
NHQ staffer: "We didn't consider that because reasons."

rinse and repeat

I haven't seen Wing or Region conferences be much better, especially when you factor in the cost.  Technology has overcome the conference model and we all just need to embrace it.  A conference can easily be replace with WebEx or similar technology for a lot less money.  I'm still not sure why we are not doing RSC and NSC as web conferences either.

I see your point, and I expect there will be much more technology utilized in the future. CAP has been behind on technology and is still trying to catch up, technology is moving faster than everyone, corporations, the military, and our culture. In OHWG at least, I see the OHWG conference as much as a learning opportunity as a social event. I enjoy getting to see familiar faces that are usually far away.

Conferences, meetings, seminars, and classes will not be fully online in the near future. This is for the same reason that of my courses only one or two are online. It isn't practical for discussion based learning and many students and instructors find better results through the personal interaction. I am one of those people who can learn either way. If I consider even one of the most academic NCSAs conducted entirely online, the benefits would not be nearly as great as the experience myself and my flight mates received.

Conferences and activities will continue to happen until people decide not to go, I have never gone to the national conference because I haven't been able to afford it. Just because it doesn't merit my money doesn't mean it isn't worth it to other people.
C/Maj Steve Garrett

etodd

Quote from: almostspaatz on April 27, 2017, 01:56:39 AM

It isn't practical for discussion based learning and many students and instructors find better results through the personal interaction. I am one of those people who can learn either way. If I consider even one of the most academic NCSAs conducted entirely online, the benefits would not be nearly as great as the experience myself and my flight mates received.


Yes. Especially when lots of info needs to be covered and its important everyone 'gets it'.  Like the two day G1000 course we have at least once a year in our Wing. Sure, we can read all the info in a book or online, but many things like this need good question and answer periods to get the info understood.  These types of seminars that have time to dig deep into a subject I enjoy. I'll leave the formal award ceremony nights to others.
"Don't try to explain it, just bow your head
Breathe in, breathe out, move on ..."

PHall

Quote from: etodd on April 27, 2017, 01:51:04 AM
I do not go to my Wing Conferences for all the reasons above. The last one here had a few 45 minute breakout sessions, with all of the info presented stuff that can be found online easily.

Bottom line .... so many folks enjoy that Saturday night rubber chicken dinner and ESPECIALLY the 500 certificates given out with the obligatory photo op. For some it may be the only time each year they wear the full dress blues and get to hang all 30 of their medals for others to see while receiving their certificate.  I get it. Its important for some folks. But its not me.


You go to stuff like Wing and Region Conferences to Network. Everything else is extra.

JacobAnn

I have only been to two National Conferences but many Wing Conferences.  I have to say I truly enjoy them.  I always feel I learn as much from my fellow attendees as I do from any formal presentations.  I'll keep going whenever possible.

FW

Quote from: Alaric on April 26, 2017, 07:24:52 PM

As long as the people that are required to go (Nat CC, Region CCs Wing CCs) are not reaching into their own pockets to pay for it, they will continue to have it and continue to perpetrate the myth that it is an opportunity for the rank and file members to get training and network.  If I were king for a day there would be no reimbursed travel for conferences, Fortune 500 companies have been using telecons and webinars for years, lets try to be good stewards of taxpayer money eh.

No taxpayer dollars are harmed when the required attendees go to conferences!  It's the members' cash....  Yes, you and I pay for our esteemed leaders travel and boarding expenses during these events.  Even the employees salaries are paid by the membership when working on the weekend....

THRAWN

Quote from: PHall on April 27, 2017, 05:25:42 AM
Quote from: etodd on April 27, 2017, 01:51:04 AM
I do not go to my Wing Conferences for all the reasons above. The last one here had a few 45 minute breakout sessions, with all of the info presented stuff that can be found online easily.

Bottom line .... so many folks enjoy that Saturday night rubber chicken dinner and ESPECIALLY the 500 certificates given out with the obligatory photo op. For some it may be the only time each year they wear the full dress blues and get to hang all 30 of their medals for others to see while receiving their certificate.  I get it. Its important for some folks. But its not me.


You go to stuff like Wing and Region Conferences to Network. Everything else is extra.

Maybe. But after you've been to a couple, and keep seeing the same players, you begin to wonder about the value. There should be some legitimate training or education, something that will make attendance worthwhile. PD can be done at a conference. Communications training can be done at a conference. Training for your FM/SE/LMNOP can be done at a conference. Or CAP can continue with the same old.
Strup-"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
USMC CSCDEP 2023

Alaric

Quote from: FW on April 27, 2017, 12:18:13 PM
Quote from: Alaric on April 26, 2017, 07:24:52 PM

As long as the people that are required to go (Nat CC, Region CCs Wing CCs) are not reaching into their own pockets to pay for it, they will continue to have it and continue to perpetrate the myth that it is an opportunity for the rank and file members to get training and network.  If I were king for a day there would be no reimbursed travel for conferences, Fortune 500 companies have been using telecons and webinars for years, lets try to be good stewards of taxpayer money eh.

No taxpayer dollars are harmed when the required attendees go to conferences!  It's the members' cash....  Yes, you and I pay for our esteemed leaders travel and boarding expenses during these events.  Even the employees salaries are paid by the membership when working on the weekend....

a) I'm a taxpayer so they are taxpayer dollars; b) Then lets be more responsible with the membership's money shall we?  I don't know about you but I'd rather see my money going to programmatic items, not so command can have a nice boondoggle at my expense

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: Alaric on April 27, 2017, 01:22:49 PM
Quote from: FW on April 27, 2017, 12:18:13 PM
Quote from: Alaric on April 26, 2017, 07:24:52 PM

As long as the people that are required to go (Nat CC, Region CCs Wing CCs) are not reaching into their own pockets to pay for it, they will continue to have it and continue to perpetrate the myth that it is an opportunity for the rank and file members to get training and network.  If I were king for a day there would be no reimbursed travel for conferences, Fortune 500 companies have been using telecons and webinars for years, lets try to be good stewards of taxpayer money eh.

No taxpayer dollars are harmed when the required attendees go to conferences!  It's the members' cash....  Yes, you and I pay for our esteemed leaders travel and boarding expenses during these events.  Even the employees salaries are paid by the membership when working on the weekend....

a) I'm a taxpayer so they are taxpayer dollars; b) Then lets be more responsible with the membership's money shall we?  I don't know about you but I'd rather see my money going to programmatic items, not so command can have a nice boondoggle at my expense


Seriously, add up all the wing/region commanders plus national staff. What are we talking about? At least $100K?


We've got 23927 cadets ($36 membership) = $861,372
We've got 32865 SMs ($65 membership) = $2,136,225


So we've got just shy of 3 million in dues, less actually since Patrons are partof that SM number).


$100K is a lot of cash.

NIN

Quote from: Alaric on April 27, 2017, 01:22:49 PM
a) I'm a taxpayer so they are taxpayer dollars; b) Then lets be more responsible with the membership's money shall we?  I don't know about you but I'd rather see my money going to programmatic items, not so command can have a nice boondoggle at my expense

Tax dollars = appropriated funds.
Membership dues = non-appropriated funds

NHQ's budget is, ballpark, $2.5M
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversationsâ„¢
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Eclipse

The latter, dues, are felt even more directly by the membership then the tax dollars,
and should be guarded even more closely.

The RRO's job wouldn't get any easier if the idea that some 2000 members' annual payment was
going to expenses for a conference they can't even attend themselves were more generally publicized.


"That Others May Zoom"

Alaric

Quote from: NIN on April 27, 2017, 03:26:11 PM
Quote from: Alaric on April 27, 2017, 01:22:49 PM
a) I'm a taxpayer so they are taxpayer dollars; b) Then lets be more responsible with the membership's money shall we?  I don't know about you but I'd rather see my money going to programmatic items, not so command can have a nice boondoggle at my expense

Tax dollars = appropriated funds.
Membership dues = non-appropriated funds

NHQ's budget is, ballpark, $2.5M

Nice response to a) but what about b?  If you want to pay for others to go to a conference then spend your money how you please, its not what I believe the members money should be going for. 

If CAP is going to use member dues money for these conferences than I believe:

1)  That it should be widely advertised that that is what the leadership thinks is a good use of membership money
2)  That National Conferences be held once every 2 years
3)  That the farce that these are training opportunities for the rank and file member (who do not have their conferences paid for) end.

FW

Not that it interests me any longer, but does the Command Council, CSAG, and BoG all meet during the annual Conference?  Maybe the travel budget can be justified because they are all open meetings and, at least the BoG deals with governance/policy issues. 
BTW; when you consider national staff members/employees who may get a travel allowance too, I believe the cash expenditures go significantly above $100k.  It's why we ask sponsors to help defray the cost to the membership.  Those "goody bags" we get aren't cheep... ;D

A.Member

If we took a step back and did a cost/benefit analysis on National or Region conferences, it'd quickly become apparent that the value just isn't there.
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: FW on April 27, 2017, 08:08:17 PM
Not that it interests me any longer, but does the Command Council, CSAG, and BoG all meet during the annual Conference?  Maybe the travel budget can be justified because they are all open meetings and, at least the BoG deals with governance/policy issues. 
BTW; when you consider national staff members/employees who may get a travel allowance too, I believe the cash expenditures go significantly above $100k.  It's why we ask sponsors to help defray the cost to the membership.  Those "goody bags" we get aren't cheep... ;D


My 100K is a low bar for JUST the internal group of 70 or so people. It's easily over $1000 per each person to do the event, at least on average.



Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: A.Member on April 27, 2017, 08:42:08 PM
If we took a step back and did a cost/benefit analysis on National or Region conferences, it be pretty apparent the value just isn't there.


Unless it's in your backyard, and you can just drive in for the event, and sleep at home.

A.Member

Quote from: Майор Хаткевич on April 27, 2017, 08:42:48 PM
Quote from: A.Member on April 27, 2017, 08:42:08 PM
If we took a step back and did a cost/benefit analysis on National or Region conferences, it be pretty apparent the value just isn't there.


Unless it's in your backyard, and you can just drive in for the event, and sleep at home.
Even then.  What is really gained from them?  Consider how our "conferences" operate as opposed to actual professional conferences.  I'd never pay or take time from my real job to attend a National or Region conference.  Even Wing level conferences are generally of marginal value.
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

THRAWN

Quote from: A.Member on April 27, 2017, 08:45:07 PM
Quote from: Майор Хаткевич on April 27, 2017, 08:42:48 PM
Quote from: A.Member on April 27, 2017, 08:42:08 PM
If we took a step back and did a cost/benefit analysis on National or Region conferences, it be pretty apparent the value just isn't there.


Unless it's in your backyard, and you can just drive in for the event, and sleep at home.
Even then.  What is really gained from them?  Consider how our "conferences" operate as opposed to actual professional conferences.  I'd never pay or take time from my real job to attend a National or Region conference.  Even Wing level conferences are generally of marginal value.

Then bring something to the table. What is it that you want to have done at a wing conference that isn't being done? Write something up, run it up the chain, and make it happen.
Strup-"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
USMC CSCDEP 2023

EMT-83

I've never been to a national conference, but have been to a couple of regional conferences that were outstanding. Great venues, good seminars, cadet activities, good social events and opportunities for networking. Worth every penny.  YMMV

Eclipse

Quote from: THRAWN on April 27, 2017, 08:50:22 PM
Then bring something to the table. What is it that you want to have done at a wing conference that isn't being done? Write something up, run it up the chain, and make it happen.

Nothing, that's the problem.

It's not a venue conducive to wrench-turning-levels of training, and the internet assures that any "news" is weeks to months old.
Most cadets who are there are part of the "road show" of active cadets and just saw each other yesterday / last week / last month,
and many of the adult participants are there because that's all they actually do, is conferences and social.

In most cases, the people doing the actual work of CAP have to stop that to go to a conference, or make a "mission or chicken" choice.

They need to accept that the ship has sailed, times and tech have changed, and look for better ways to accomplish whatever
mission is actually here.

"That Others May Zoom"

A.Member

#28
Quote from: THRAWN on April 27, 2017, 08:50:22 PM
Quote from: A.Member on April 27, 2017, 08:45:07 PM
Quote from: Майор Хаткевич on April 27, 2017, 08:42:48 PM
Quote from: A.Member on April 27, 2017, 08:42:08 PM
If we took a step back and did a cost/benefit analysis on National or Region conferences, it be pretty apparent the value just isn't there.


Unless it's in your backyard, and you can just drive in for the event, and sleep at home.
Even then.  What is really gained from them?  Consider how our "conferences" operate as opposed to actual professional conferences.  I'd never pay or take time from my real job to attend a National or Region conference.  Even Wing level conferences are generally of marginal value.

Then bring something to the table. What is it that you want to have done at a wing conference that isn't being done? Write something up, run it up the chain, and make it happen.
Ah, the old why don't you suggest/do something argument...  ::) 

A fundamental problem is what we (CAP) view a conference to be.  A conference is not and should not be a giant training session. Not even close.  I've never been to a professional conference where the outcome was a certification, etc.  That's not the purpose.

A conference should be an opportunity for us share ideas/discuss best practices, not just among ourselves but with every potential partner agency and customer.  Make ourselves and our capabilities known.  That's what conferences do. 

How does that viewpoint compare to the CAP conferences you've attended?!   
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

Ned

Sorry to be late to the thread, but I might be able to clear up some misunderstandings.

First, both the volunteer and professional leadership shares a great many of your concerns, and also believes that conferences should be as inexpensive as possible and that all of us need to be careful guardians of both appropriated ("tax dollars") and non-appropriated (corporate) funds.  We also believe that members should be able to choose between "distance / on-line" and in-person training whenever possible.

Let me start by assuring you that the summer conference is entirely "self-funding" -- it does not use either appropriated or corporate monies.  Restated, neither the taxpayers nor the dues payers are subsidizing the conference.  We average between 650-700 paid attendees yearly, and between conference registration fees and our generous corporate sponsors we pay for the conference.

We do a couple of things to help minimize the cost to our members.  We know that travel is expensive, and we can see that a significant percentage of each year's attendees are "locals" who presumably have to spend less to get there, and may also not have to stay at the conference hotel.  So we deliberately rotate the conference location between regions every year to help make it "local" to a different subset of members yearly.  Baltimore, Louisville, San Antonio, Orlando, Las Vegas, etc..

The volunteers and corporate team members who plan the conferences work very aggressively to get the best possible prices for our members.  This year's hotel rate of $132 per night in the Riverwalk area of San Antonio is a very good deal. 

We also try to separate out things like the awards banquet when pricing the event, so that members can pick and choose according to their budget.

We encourage the local wing and region to "combine" their conferences with ours.  This year, SWR and Texas Wing are not holding separate conferences, but are holding events in conjunction with the national conference.

Each year, we actively survey attendees for their feedback on multiple items, including cost and value.  Our feedback from attendees is overwhelmingly positive.  Every member's feedback is important, and heard.

On a personal note, I have been attending these conferences for over 40 years, and have happily paid for a lot of flights, registrations, and hotel rooms out of my own pocket, just like thousands of other volunteers.  (Full disclosure, as a national staff guy, I receive free registration these days but also have to "sing for my supper" by conducting seminars and classes over several days.  I pay for my own meals (including the awards banquet) and expenses like everyone else).

I greatly enjoy the networking aspect and seeing friends I have known for decades.  I enjoy interacting with the members, and answering questions and addressing concerns.  Sometimes over a beer. 

I certainly understand that some members may not choose to spend the time and treasure to attend the national conference.  That is a personal choice for each of our members, and apparently hundreds of members each year find sufficient value and choose to attend.

Finally, any one of us is free to volunteer to serve on the various committees that plan and implement our wing, region, and national conferences.  It is difficult yet rewarding work.  If you don't have the extra time, please consider offering your feedback to your colleagues who work the planning process.

I hope to see and meet each of you in San Antonio!  (Or at least in Anaheim next year.)

Ned Lee
Col, CAP
National Staff Guy

NCRblues

Ned, I have a question.

How is the rotation for the National Conference come up with?

(I ask due to the fact that NCR has not hosted the "summer national conference" since 2005 in St. Louis IIRC)
In god we trust, all others we run through NCIC

A.Member

#31
Quote from: Ned on April 27, 2017, 10:18:49 PMEach year, we actively survey attendees for their feedback on multiple items, including cost and value.  Our feedback from attendees is overwhelmingly positive.
Ned, these are not loaded questions; I'm genuinely interested in your responses...   

How do you (National) make the assessment above?  What is the survey response rate from attendees?   How many of those are the same core that always attend or are required to attend?  Keep in mind that even if 700 attend and all respond, that is .01% of the membership.

From a National perspective, what are the defined goals/objectives for a given conference?  How do you measure achievement of those goals?
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

SarDragon

Quote from: THRAWN on April 27, 2017, 12:20:21 PM
Maybe. But after you've been to a couple, and keep seeing the same players, you begin to wonder about the value. There should be some legitimate training or education, something that will make attendance worthwhile. PD can be done at a conference. Communications training can be done at a conference. Training for your FM/SE/LMNOP can be done at a conference. Or CAP can continue with the same old.

Gee, we do all those things at our wing conferences except things like SLS and CLS. I've been to one National Conference, and the seminars there were geared more for general knowledge of new tech/procedures/policies than specific how-tos that you might see at a wing conference.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Alaric

#33
Quote from: Ned on April 27, 2017, 10:18:49 PM
Sorry to be late to the thread, but I might be able to clear up some misunderstandings.

First, both the volunteer and professional leadership shares a great many of your concerns, and also believes that conferences should be as inexpensive as possible and that all of us need to be careful guardians of both appropriated ("tax dollars") and non-appropriated (corporate) funds.  We also believe that members should be able to choose between "distance / on-line" and in-person training whenever possible.

Let me start by assuring you that the summer conference is entirely "self-funding" -- it does not use either appropriated or corporate monies.  Restated, neither the taxpayers nor the dues payers are subsidizing the conference.  We average between 650-700 paid attendees yearly, and between conference registration fees and our generous corporate sponsors we pay for the conference.

We do a couple of things to help minimize the cost to our members.  We know that travel is expensive, and we can see that a significant percentage of each year's attendees are "locals" who presumably have to spend less to get there, and may also not have to stay at the conference hotel.  So we deliberately rotate the conference location between regions every year to help make it "local" to a different subset of members yearly.  Baltimore, Louisville, San Antonio, Orlando, Las Vegas, etc..

The volunteers and corporate team members who plan the conferences work very aggressively to get the best possible prices for our members.  This year's hotel rate of $132 per night in the Riverwalk area of San Antonio is a very good deal. 

We also try to separate out things like the awards banquet when pricing the event, so that members can pick and choose according to their budget.

We encourage the local wing and region to "combine" their conferences with ours.  This year, SWR and Texas Wing are not holding separate conferences, but are holding events in conjunction with the national conference.

Each year, we actively survey attendees for their feedback on multiple items, including cost and value.  Our feedback from attendees is overwhelmingly positive.  Every member's feedback is important, and heard.

On a personal note, I have been attending these conferences for over 40 years, and have happily paid for a lot of flights, registrations, and hotel rooms out of my own pocket, just like thousands of other volunteers.  (Full disclosure, as a national staff guy, I receive free registration these days but also have to "sing for my supper" by conducting seminars and classes over several days.  I pay for my own meals (including the awards banquet) and expenses like everyone else).

I greatly enjoy the networking aspect and seeing friends I have known for decades.  I enjoy interacting with the members, and answering questions and addressing concerns.  Sometimes over a beer. 

I certainly understand that some members may not choose to spend the time and treasure to attend the national conference.  That is a personal choice for each of our members, and apparently hundreds of members each year find sufficient value and choose to attend.

Finally, any one of us is free to volunteer to serve on the various committees that plan and implement our wing, region, and national conferences.  It is difficult yet rewarding work.  If you don't have the extra time, please consider offering your feedback to your colleagues who work the planning process.

I hope to see and meet each of you in San Antonio!  (Or at least in Anaheim next year.)

Ned Lee
Col, CAP
National Staff Guy

I don't want to put words in your mouth so I want to make sure I understand your statement.  When you say member money is not being used to subsidize the conference are you implying that all National Region and Wing command staff are paying for their own hotel, registration and travel?  I know that travel is a budget item in my current wing and was when I was in MD Wing also (though that was 8 years ago).  Its nice that your registration is subsidized since you present, I know at local conferences (at least in my wing YMMV) everyone who presents pays to attend the conference.

Its nice you have had the wherewithal to attend 40 years of conferences and that you feel its a worthwhile investment, and as long as everyone is paying for themselves I've got no problem with how people spend their own money.  I do have issues on how an organization spends money it collects to accomplish the mission of that organization.

There is no reason to have conferences in fancy hotels, I've attended plenty of conference in Best Westerns, Hilton Garden Inns, etc. If national were actually concerned about costs they would enter the 20th century and embrace the teleconference. There is no reason for a yearly boondoggle. I've been to a couple of the conferences and they were nothing to write home about, certainly not worth the money. Don't get me wrong, if that's what people want to spend their money on, great, but if the people attending are not paying I think thats a problem.  You mention hundreds of members that find sufficient value however even if you have 1000 senior members attend the conference then the conference is only serving approximately 3 percent of the senior membership hardly a ringing endorsement.  Didn't NCC get revamped because it was serving a similarly low percentage of the cadet membership while taking up a great deal of resources?

Eclipse

Quote from: Alaric on April 28, 2017, 01:06:02 AM
There is no reason to have conferences in fancy hotels,

This - they should be working sessions, not vacations.

And if the response is "A lot of people wouldn't' come if they couldn't' bring their spouse or turn it into a min-vacation..."

The the answer as to their actual value to the general membership is right there.

"That Others May Zoom"

SarDragon

The venues you call "fancy hotels" are usually the only ones capable of hosting an event that large. I belong to another organization that has a similar annual event, with an attendance in the neighborhood of 2000. For instance, there are only four hotels in San Diego capable of hosting that many people in a single venue. One of them was the site for the 2010 National Board Meeting. Other cities have similar problems.

As for the teleconferencing thing, I still maintain that face-to-face networking is worth the effort and expense. At all the conferences I have attended, I have had the opportunity to put faces with names, and get into discussions that might not otherwise be available. In addition, it is an opportunity to recognize members for their accomplishments in front of their peers.

Since there's an annual board meeting scheduled, some folks are going to travel, anyway, so why not make it a big event?

Bottom line, if you don't like the concept, don't go.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Alaric

Quote from: SarDragon on April 28, 2017, 03:03:54 AM
The venues you call "fancy hotels" are usually the only ones capable of hosting an event that large. I belong to another organization that has a similar annual event, with an attendance in the neighborhood of 2000. For instance, there are only four hotels in San Diego capable of hosting that many people in a single venue. One of them was the site for the 2010 National Board Meeting. Other cities have similar problems.

As for the teleconferencing thing, I still maintain that face-to-face networking is worth the effort and expense. At all the conferences I have attended, I have had the opportunity to put faces with names, and get into discussions that might not otherwise be available. In addition, it is an opportunity to recognize members for their accomplishments in front of their peers.

Since there's an annual board meeting scheduled, some folks are going to travel, anyway, so why not make it a big event?

Bottom line, if you don't like the concept, don't go.

My only point is that anyone attending the conference should pay their own way.  If everyone is already doing that great, if not, then I have a problem with the organizations money being spent so people can attend a conference that serves less than 3% of the membership (if you only count senior members)

SarDragon

 The fundamental purpose of the event is company business. The people required to attend get the free ride. Everyone else pays their own way. Both companies I worked for after leaving the Navy, and both of the companies my wife worked for had similar policies.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Ned

Let me see how my cut and paste skills hold out.

Quote from: Alaric[A]re you implying that all National Region and Wing command staff are paying for their own hotel, registration and travel?
Of course not.  We have enough trouble finding qualified members to serve as region and wing commanders.  Imagine what would happen if they had to pay several thousand dollars a year out of their own pocket to attend mandatory meetings, commanders calls, and conferences.  Only rich folks need apply.  Average members, like you and me, could never aspire to serve as wing or region commanders.  Wing and region commanders receive a modest travel budget in order to perform their duties.  As it is, most wing and region commanders spend thousands of dollars a year for the "privilege" of command.  We need to lessen that burden to allow average members to serve; not increase it.

Quote from: AlaricThere is no reason to have conferences in fancy hotels.

Well, I suppose it comes down to what you mean by a "fancy hotel."  I don't think there are any Motel 6's that can accommodate a conference with roughly 1,000 folks.  Same for military bases. (Plus add access problems for non-members like vendors, stakeholders, relatives of members receiving awards, etc.)  Obviously it needs to be a large enough venue to accommodate the members who choose to attend.  And I don't know about your personal definitions, but $132 a night for our hotel in San Antonio doesn't sound like a particularly "fancy" hotel.  Again, feel free to volunteer to serve on one of the committees that plan and put on one of our any terrific wing, region, and national conferences and share your views about what constitutes a "fancy hotel."

Quote from: AlaricThere is no reason for a yearly boondoggle.
Strong statement of personal opinion noted.  Obviously, hundreds of members every year disagree with you and invest the time and treasure for the conference.  It appears to work for them.  If you don't want to go, you certainly don't have to.  Is there some reason that the 650-700 members that choose to participate each year should be deprived of their ability to attend?

Quote from: A.MemberHow do you (National) make the assessment above? 
I dunno exactly, but I think each attendee is sent a link to a survey instrument.

Quote from: A.MemberWhat is the survey response rate from attendees?   How many of those are the same core that always attend or are required to attend?
There is certainly a certain level of folks like me that show up every year, please others who come somewhat less often.  I don't know what percentage of the attendees respond to the survey, but I am told it is comparable to most surveys and is statistically significant.

Quote from: A.MemberKeep in mind that even if 700 attend and all respond, that is .01% of the membership.
God knows I am certainly not a math guy, but I think your assertion is off by a factor of 100 or so.   The last time I looked, we had something like 57,000 members.  1% of that would be something like 570.  (Which is less than the % that voluntarily pay to attend the conference.) .01% of the members is something like 6 members. But I'm a lawyer.  If I was any good at math, I'd be something else.

Quote from: NCRBluesHow is the rotation for the National Conference come up with?
I don't know exactly.  I know they have a long list of factors that includes having a hotel large enough to serve the need (and preferably several so we can obtain a competative bid), a local medium-to-large airport that has reasonable airfares from most of the country, and a "family-friendly" environment that has other attractions to allow families that attend to do something besides sit around while the member goes to CAP stuff.  This all happens in a hard-working committee that I am not on.  And I don't want to be on.  But you certainly could be.

Did I get everyone?

Ned Lee
Col, CAP
National Staff Guy

SarDragon

Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Eclipse

This discussion has to be viewed in the context of an organizaiton which, rather then trying to reduce the
cost of encampments across the board (through, I dunno, leveraging TotalF rce relationships?) is suggesting
encampments charge more then actual cost to provide gift cards, and fees and travel expenses for speakers.

"That Others May Zoom"

Eclipse

#41
Quote from: SarDragon on April 28, 2017, 03:16:10 AM
The fundamental purpose of the event is company business. The people required to attend get the free ride. Everyone else pays their own way. Both companies I worked for after leaving the Navy, and both of the companies my wife worked for had similar policies.

Were both of those companies not-for-profits with all-volunteer staff?

You literally cannot compare this to a corporate situation in regards to the optics, the goals, or the the financials.

"That Others May Zoom"

Eclipse

"If you don't like it / them, don't go..."

Fair enough, except these parties take resources from the organization, which all but shuts down during the time before, during, and after.

Add in the myriad wing and region conferences, and you have hundreds of thousands of dollars, and hundreds if nor thousands
of man hours,  >wasted< on banquets and "meetings", yet the organizaiton is struggling with mission, and purpose, and even viability.

"That Others May Zoom"

SarDragon

Of the four, one was a non-profit (different from a not-for-profit), with a paid staff making about 75% of prevailing private enterprise wages/salaries. The others were private enterprise companies. I don't see how that makes any difference. The corporation has operating expenses, and a budget. Part of those expenses is the annual board meeting, just as it is for most corporations.

My other volunteer organization has similar issues, similar discussions and, thinking about it, a similar number of members. We pay dues, there's a headquarters with a paid staff, and we get a limited amount of funding from sponsors (our national sponsor is USAF). Bucks in, bucks out, all hopefully within the budget.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Ned

Quote from: Eclipse on April 28, 2017, 03:34:41 AM
"If you don't like it / them, don't go..."

Fair enough, except these parties take resources from the organization, which all but shuts down during the time before, during, and after.

Add in the myriad wing and region conferences, and you have hundreds of thousands of dollars, and hundreds if nor thousands
of man hours,  >wasted< on banquets and "meetings", yet the organizaiton is struggling with mission, and purpose, and even viability.

Careful, Bob, your bias is showing.   8)

As I pointed out before, conferences -- including the national conference -- are "self funded" and do not take resources from the organization.

Perhaps more importantly, I can't think of many national-level organizations that do not have conferences and meetings.  I suppose there could be some out there somewhere, but they have got to be rare.  I work in government, and we certainly have multiple conferences, meetings, and trainings every year.  Heck, I am mandated to attend a certain number of training hours per year or I am subject to discipline.  The military certainly has no shortage of meetings, conferences, and training events.  Off the top of my head, the Red Cross, Scouts, and even my church has national-level meetings every year.  I suspect that most members of the respective organizations don't go, but obviously the overwhelming number of national organizations find value in meetings and conferences.

Kinda like CAP.

Eclipse

Private enterprise has to maintain an image of success, and compete for workers, so perks and
privileges are part of the game.

As someone who is in the bidniss of tradshoows and corporate meetings, I can tell you a lot
of them are just bandcamp for the sales guys and the whales under the pretext of a "board meeting",
cut off Las Vegas once or twice a year and your competitors start getting a lot of resumes.

But so be it, private companies can do whatever they want with their profits as long as the stake or share-holders
don't mind (or get to come, too).

That is absolutely not what CAP is about, and stuff like this is what gets charities in trouble,
either in real court, or more importantly in the court of public opinion, which includes the rank and file.

"That Others May Zoom"

Alaric

Quote from: Ned on April 28, 2017, 03:19:16 AM
Let me see how my cut and paste skills hold out.

Quote from: Alaric[A]re you implying that all National Region and Wing command staff are paying for their own hotel, registration and travel?
Of course not.  We have enough trouble finding qualified members to serve as region and wing commanders.  Imagine what would happen if they had to pay several thousand dollars a year out of their own pocket to attend mandatory meetings, commanders calls, and conferences.  Only rich folks need apply.  Average members, like you and me, could never aspire to serve as wing or region commanders.  Wing and region commanders receive a modest travel budget in order to perform their duties.  As it is, most wing and region commanders spend thousands of dollars a year for the "privilege" of command.  We need to lessen that burden to allow average members to serve; not increase it.

Quote from: AlaricThere is no reason to have conferences in fancy hotels.

Well, I suppose it comes down to what you mean by a "fancy hotel."  I don't think there are any Motel 6's that can accommodate a conference with roughly 1,000 folks.  Same for military bases. (Plus add access problems for non-members like vendors, stakeholders, relatives of members receiving awards, etc.)  Obviously it needs to be a large enough venue to accommodate the members who choose to attend.  And I don't know about your personal definitions, but $132 a night for our hotel in San Antonio doesn't sound like a particularly "fancy" hotel.  Again, feel free to volunteer to serve on one of the committees that plan and put on one of our any terrific wing, region, and national conferences and share your views about what constitutes a "fancy hotel."

Quote from: AlaricThere is no reason for a yearly boondoggle.
Strong statement of personal opinion noted.  Obviously, hundreds of members every year disagree with you and invest the time and treasure for the conference.  It appears to work for them.  If you don't want to go, you certainly don't have to.  Is there some reason that the 650-700 members that choose to participate each year should be deprived of their ability to attend?


Did I get everyone?

Ned Lee
Col, CAP
National Staff Guy

My cut and paste skills are not up to snuff so I'll answer below:

It is my belief that if the membership was not subsidizing the conferences for command then they would be a little more conscious of costs.  If you are going to run for a command position, you should plan for the outlay.  If NHQ wants to lessen the burden, embrace technology and require less face to face meetings

I have been on the planning committees for several wing and one region conference

I have no problem with how 650 - 700 people (<3% of the senior membership) want to spend their money.  I do have a problem if approximately 10 percent of those people (52 Wing Commanders, 8 Region Commanders, National Commander and Vice Commander = 62  Presuming Vice Commanders at Region and Wing level are also not subsidized) are spending the organization's money to go to the event.




Alaric

Quote from: Ned on April 28, 2017, 03:51:13 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on April 28, 2017, 03:34:41 AM
"If you don't like it / them, don't go..."

Fair enough, except these parties take resources from the organization, which all but shuts down during the time before, during, and after.

Add in the myriad wing and region conferences, and you have hundreds of thousands of dollars, and hundreds if nor thousands
of man hours,  >wasted< on banquets and "meetings", yet the organizaiton is struggling with mission, and purpose, and even viability.

Careful, Bob, your bias is showing.   8)

As I pointed out before, conferences -- including the national conference -- are "self funded" and do not take resources from the organization.


Kinda like CAP.

I'm confused, if CAP money is being used to pay for Wing/Region/National Command staff to go to the conferences, how is this not taking resources from the organization?  Obviously if the money wasn't being spent on this, it would be being spent on something else

Eclipse

Quote from: Ned on April 28, 2017, 03:51:13 AM
Careful, Bob, your bias is showing.   8)

It's rarely hidden

Quote from: Ned on April 28, 2017, 03:51:13 AM
As I pointed out before, conferences -- including the national conference -- are "self funded" and do not take resources from the organization.
The most important resources they sap are TIME and ATTENTION. Wings, Regions, and NHQ all but shut down before, during and after their
respective soirees.

But since you brought it up, again, you are saying that not a single dollar of member funds is spent on any conferences, ever? Nothing for travel?
No expense reimbursement?  Nothing? 

"That Others May Zoom"

Ned

Quote from: Alaric on April 28, 2017, 03:53:09 AM

It is my belief that if the membership was not subsidizing the conferences for command then they would be a little more conscious of costs. 
Wait, what?
Quote

If you are going to run for a command position, you should plan for the outlay.  If NHQ wants to lessen the burden, embrace technology and require less face to face meetings

So, you are OK with only rich people running the organization?  OK, position noted.  Personally, I prefer a broader, more diverse leadership.  But that's just me.

And BTW, as a member of the BoG, I can reassure you that we had plenty of teleconferences; just like the CSAG. 

Like any group with more than 50 members, Command Council meetings are somewhat more difficult to conduct via teleconference, but they do happen on occasion.  And they meet in person a couple of times a year.

But the leadership is extremely conscious about costs, and fully embraces electronic meetings whenever feasible.

Ned Lee




Alaric

#50
Quote from: Ned on April 28, 2017, 04:02:13 AM
Quote from: Alaric on April 28, 2017, 03:53:09 AM

It is my belief that if the membership was not subsidizing the conferences for command then they would be a little more conscious of costs. 
Wait, what?
Quote

Let me rephrase, if conferences were not subsidized for the command staff I believe that the command staff would be a little more conscious of the costs

If you are going to run for a command position, you should plan for the outlay.  If NHQ wants to lessen the burden, embrace technology and require less face to face meetings

So, you are OK with only rich people running the organization?  OK, position noted.  Personally, I prefer a broader, more diverse leadership.  But that's just me.

And BTW, as a member of the BoG, I can reassure you that we had plenty of teleconferences; just like the CSAG. 

Like any group with more than 50 members, Command Council meetings are somewhat more difficult to conduct via teleconference, but they do happen on occasion.  And they meet in person a couple of times a year.

But the leadership is extremely conscious about costs, and fully embraces electronic meetings whenever feasible.

Ned Lee
I didn't say anything about only rich people leading the organization, I said that if you want to run for command, do your research and save your money. 


Once again if they used more technology less costs.  Or in lieu of having a conference, with all the additional costs (including having to have them at expensive hotels that can handle 700+ people) just have the Command Council meet in the summer as they do in the winter. 

A.Member

#51
Quote from: Ned
Quote from: A.MemberHow do you (National) make the assessment above? 
I dunno exactly, but I think each attendee is sent a link to a survey instrument.

Quote from: A.MemberWhat is the survey response rate from attendees?   How many of those are the same core that always attend or are required to attend?
There is certainly a certain level of folks like me that show up every year, please others who come somewhat less often.  I don't know what percentage of the attendees respond to the survey, but I am told it is comparable to most surveys and is statistically significant.
So, likely between 40 - 60% response rate?

Quote from: Ned
Quote from: A.MemberKeep in mind that even if 700 attend and all respond, that is .01% of the membership.
God knows I am certainly not a math guy, but I think your assertion is off by a factor of 100 or so.   The last time I looked, we had something like 57,000 members.  1% of that would be something like 570.  (Which is less than the % that voluntarily pay to attend the conference.) .01% of the members is something like 6 members. But I'm a lawyer.  If I was any good at math, I'd be something else.
Haha, well, clearly math isn't my strong suit either...never could move those decimals correctly.  Point is, that it's not necessarily a representative group but rather a more exclusive group, especially among repeat crowd. 

I have to imagine large population states, such as Texas, typically have 400 (possibly more) attendees at an average Wing conference.  If the host Wing and Region cancel their annual conferences when the National conference is held in their AOR, then it's safe to assume National is simply benefiting from those would be attendee.  That's fair enough but it perhaps somewhat artificially increases interest/attendance in National conference?

Quote from: NedDid I get everyone?
Seems you may've overlooked my question in re: NHQs goals, objectives, and metrics for conferences. 
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

Eclipse

Here's an idea - remove National and Region conferences and only hold Wing conferences.

"Training" and "Meetings" which for some reason need to be held in a hotel conference room
can be done at those events in conjunction with them, which would expand there scope
and contact, while also eliminating bandcamp.

Members who feel the need to "network" can attend these wing conferences, which are always
open to anyone, anyway.

That makes the wings better, and eliminates as many as 8 or 9 expensive activities from the calendar.

Done.

"That Others May Zoom"

THRAWN

Quote from: A.Member on April 27, 2017, 10:02:01 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on April 27, 2017, 08:50:22 PM
Quote from: A.Member on April 27, 2017, 08:45:07 PM
Quote from: Майор Хаткевич on April 27, 2017, 08:42:48 PM
Quote from: A.Member on April 27, 2017, 08:42:08 PM
If we took a step back and did a cost/benefit analysis on National or Region conferences, it be pretty apparent the value just isn't there.


Unless it's in your backyard, and you can just drive in for the event, and sleep at home.
Even then.  What is really gained from them?  Consider how our "conferences" operate as opposed to actual professional conferences.  I'd never pay or take time from my real job to attend a National or Region conference.  Even Wing level conferences are generally of marginal value.

Then bring something to the table. What is it that you want to have done at a wing conference that isn't being done? Write something up, run it up the chain, and make it happen.
Ah, the old why don't you suggest/do something argument...  ::) 

A fundamental problem is what we (CAP) view a conference to be.  A conference is not and should not be a giant training session. Not even close.  I've never been to a professional conference where the outcome was a certification, etc.  That's not the purpose.

A conference should be an opportunity for us share ideas/discuss best practices, not just among ourselves but with every potential partner agency and customer.  Make ourselves and our capabilities known.  That's what conferences do. 

How does that viewpoint compare to the CAP conferences you've attended?!

The two goals are not mutually exclusive. I've been to a number of conferences that offered CE/certification programs. While it is not the sole purpose of the conference, it is one of them. Having conversations with industry, other youth orgs, state EMAs, airport authorities, STEM educators,etc is ideal. I've been to about 50 conferences, between wing and region, and with very few exceptions, this hs happened. If it's not happening in your wing, is it because the conference planners are stuck in the rubber chicken mode nd don't cre, or is it because the planners are unaware that this is something that membership wants. Some wings do a great job of defining what they view as a conference and putting that into action. Make yours one of them.
Strup-"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
USMC CSCDEP 2023

EMT-83

Here's an idea - if you think there is no value to attending conferences... stay home.

They don't take any food off of your plate, and others find them useful. Hey, look at the time! Isn't there a uniform argument scheduled?

Alaric

Quote from: EMT-83 on April 28, 2017, 11:08:16 AM
Here's an idea - if you think there is no value to attending conferences... stay home.

They don't take any food off of your plate, and others find them useful. Hey, look at the time! Isn't there a uniform argument scheduled?

That's kind of my point Steve, by spending the organization's money subsidizing certain attendees they are taking food off everyone's plate.  I've got no problem with people spending their own money, when you're spending the organization's money on an event that benefits so few (700 out of 32.8k) then I think its an issue

A.Member

#56
Quote from: EMT-83 on April 28, 2017, 11:08:16 AM
Here's an idea - if you think there is no value to attending conferences... stay home.

They don't take any food off of your plate, and others find them useful. Hey, look at the time! Isn't there a uniform argument scheduled?
Guess what?  I will....just like 56,000 or 99% of our members.  The "you don't like it, then stay at home" rebuttal is lame.

This may seem like a foreign concept but I want my organization focused on issues/events that bring value and growth as opposed to an exclusive event where members simply stand in a circle to pat themselves on the back - the dog and pony show; that's an award ceremony not a conference. 

The organization faces serious challenges.  Getting together to find solutions to those problems is a reasonable approach.  But that's not typically what happens at our "conferences". 
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

jeders

Quote from: Alaric on April 28, 2017, 12:30:24 PM
Quote from: EMT-83 on April 28, 2017, 11:08:16 AM
Here's an idea - if you think there is no value to attending conferences... stay home.

They don't take any food off of your plate, and others find them useful. Hey, look at the time! Isn't there a uniform argument scheduled?

That's kind of my point Steve, by spending the organization's money subsidizing certain attendees they are taking food off everyone's plate.  I've got no problem with people spending their own money, when you're spending the organization's money on an event that benefits so few (700 out of 32.8k) then I think its an issue

Except, as Ned has graciously pointed out multiple times, organizational funds are not being used to subsidize anything. Those who get their registration paid for are being subsidized by other attendees ONLY. Conferences take literally nothing out of the broader budget.

As for Eclipses point about taking time and attention, that's a legitimate complaint. I have a Tenant who host a major conference (similar to our national conference in size) for their users every summer. For about 3-4 weeks leading up to the event a certain group of employees is extremely busy and it takes away from their ability to handle other stuff. Likewise, in CAP, a certain small group of corporate employees and volunteers will likely be very busy preparing for this event. So we must simply do what my corporate for-profit Tenant does, plan ahead. If you know that someone at wing/region/national is going to be busy during a certain time frame, then you submit things to them prior to that time frame or wait until after.
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

THRAWN

Quote from: jeders on April 28, 2017, 01:29:08 PM
Quote from: Alaric on April 28, 2017, 12:30:24 PM
Quote from: EMT-83 on April 28, 2017, 11:08:16 AM
Here's an idea - if you think there is no value to attending conferences... stay home.

They don't take any food off of your plate, and others find them useful. Hey, look at the time! Isn't there a uniform argument scheduled?

That's kind of my point Steve, by spending the organization's money subsidizing certain attendees they are taking food off everyone's plate.  I've got no problem with people spending their own money, when you're spending the organization's money on an event that benefits so few (700 out of 32.8k) then I think its an issue

Except, as Ned has graciously pointed out multiple times, organizational funds are not being used to subsidize anything. Those who get their registration paid for are being subsidized by other attendees ONLY. Conferences take literally nothing out of the broader budget.

As for Eclipses point about taking time and attention, that's a legitimate complaint. I have a Tenant who host a major conference (similar to our national conference in size) for their users every summer. For about 3-4 weeks leading up to the event a certain group of employees is extremely busy and it takes away from their ability to handle other stuff. Likewise, in CAP, a certain small group of corporate employees and volunteers will likely be very busy preparing for this event. So we must simply do what my corporate for-profit Tenant does, plan ahead. If you know that someone at wing/region/national is going to be busy during a certain time frame, then you submit things to them prior to that time frame or wait until after.

Same can be said for the staffers and planners of these events. They sometimes give the impression that it is the very first time they have heard the word "conference" let alone planned one...
Strup-"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
USMC CSCDEP 2023

Alaric

Quote from: jeders on April 28, 2017, 01:29:08 PM
Quote from: Alaric on April 28, 2017, 12:30:24 PM
Quote from: EMT-83 on April 28, 2017, 11:08:16 AM
Here's an idea - if you think there is no value to attending conferences... stay home.

They don't take any food off of your plate, and others find them useful. Hey, look at the time! Isn't there a uniform argument scheduled?

That's kind of my point Steve, by spending the organization's money subsidizing certain attendees they are taking food off everyone's plate.  I've got no problem with people spending their own money, when you're spending the organization's money on an event that benefits so few (700 out of 32.8k) then I think its an issue

Except, as Ned has graciously pointed out multiple times, organizational funds are not being used to subsidize anything. Those who get their registration paid for are being subsidized by other attendees ONLY. Conferences take literally nothing out of the broader budget.

As for Eclipses point about taking time and attention, that's a legitimate complaint. I have a Tenant who host a major conference (similar to our national conference in size) for their users every summer. For about 3-4 weeks leading up to the event a certain group of employees is extremely busy and it takes away from their ability to handle other stuff. Likewise, in CAP, a certain small group of corporate employees and volunteers will likely be very busy preparing for this event. So we must simply do what my corporate for-profit Tenant does, plan ahead. If you know that someone at wing/region/national is going to be busy during a certain time frame, then you submit things to them prior to that time frame or wait until after.

What do you think makes up the budget from which their travel allowances come?, member dues that's where, so indeed the money is coming from the broader budget because if the travel allowances didn't exist that money would be allocated elsewhere

jeders

Quote from: Alaric on April 28, 2017, 01:45:20 PM
Quote from: jeders on April 28, 2017, 01:29:08 PM
Quote from: Alaric on April 28, 2017, 12:30:24 PM
Quote from: EMT-83 on April 28, 2017, 11:08:16 AM
Here's an idea - if you think there is no value to attending conferences... stay home.

They don't take any food off of your plate, and others find them useful. Hey, look at the time! Isn't there a uniform argument scheduled?

That's kind of my point Steve, by spending the organization's money subsidizing certain attendees they are taking food off everyone's plate.  I've got no problem with people spending their own money, when you're spending the organization's money on an event that benefits so few (700 out of 32.8k) then I think its an issue

Except, as Ned has graciously pointed out multiple times, organizational funds are not being used to subsidize anything. Those who get their registration paid for are being subsidized by other attendees ONLY. Conferences take literally nothing out of the broader budget.

As for Eclipses point about taking time and attention, that's a legitimate complaint. I have a Tenant who host a major conference (similar to our national conference in size) for their users every summer. For about 3-4 weeks leading up to the event a certain group of employees is extremely busy and it takes away from their ability to handle other stuff. Likewise, in CAP, a certain small group of corporate employees and volunteers will likely be very busy preparing for this event. So we must simply do what my corporate for-profit Tenant does, plan ahead. If you know that someone at wing/region/national is going to be busy during a certain time frame, then you submit things to them prior to that time frame or wait until after.

What do you think makes up the budget from which their travel allowances come?, member dues that's where, so indeed the money is coming from the broader budget because if the travel allowances didn't exist that money would be allocated elsewhere

Yes they have a travel allowance so that they can visit encampment, travel to units that are isolated from everyone else, and yes go to national level gatherings to conduct the business for which they were hired. Or would you rather the commanders at every level remain locked away in their ivory towers, wholly detached from the rank and file member as well as the rest of the organization?
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

Alaric

Quote from: jeders on April 28, 2017, 01:56:28 PM
Quote from: Alaric on April 28, 2017, 01:45:20 PM
Quote from: jeders on April 28, 2017, 01:29:08 PM
Quote from: Alaric on April 28, 2017, 12:30:24 PM
Quote from: EMT-83 on April 28, 2017, 11:08:16 AM
Here's an idea - if you think there is no value to attending conferences... stay home.

They don't take any food off of your plate, and others find them useful. Hey, look at the time! Isn't there a uniform argument scheduled?

That's kind of my point Steve, by spending the organization's money subsidizing certain attendees they are taking food off everyone's plate.  I've got no problem with people spending their own money, when you're spending the organization's money on an event that benefits so few (700 out of 32.8k) then I think its an issue

Except, as Ned has graciously pointed out multiple times, organizational funds are not being used to subsidize anything. Those who get their registration paid for are being subsidized by other attendees ONLY. Conferences take literally nothing out of the broader budget.

As for Eclipses point about taking time and attention, that's a legitimate complaint. I have a Tenant who host a major conference (similar to our national conference in size) for their users every summer. For about 3-4 weeks leading up to the event a certain group of employees is extremely busy and it takes away from their ability to handle other stuff. Likewise, in CAP, a certain small group of corporate employees and volunteers will likely be very busy preparing for this event. So we must simply do what my corporate for-profit Tenant does, plan ahead. If you know that someone at wing/region/national is going to be busy during a certain time frame, then you submit things to them prior to that time frame or wait until after.

What do you think makes up the budget from which their travel allowances come?, member dues that's where, so indeed the money is coming from the broader budget because if the travel allowances didn't exist that money would be allocated elsewhere

Yes they have a travel allowance so that they can visit encampment, travel to units that are isolated from everyone else, and yes go to national level gatherings to conduct the business for which they were hired. Or would you rather the commanders at every level remain locked away in their ivory towers, wholly detached from the rank and file member as well as the rest of the organization?

First they are not hired, they volunteer and are selected.

Second, as I have said before if you plan to volunteer for a command position, do your research and save your money.  If you can't afford to do it, don't volunteer.  The membership should not be subsidizing it.  The "price" of command even at the local level is high, I have warned those who are looking to replace me of this so that they are prepared.  Will this eliminate some people, sure but that's what happens in the real world.  I'd like to be a pilot, but I know that given my current financial realities I will not be able to save enough for lessons.

jeders

Quote from: Alaric on April 28, 2017, 02:06:30 PM
First they are not hired, they volunteer and are selected.

Sounds like being hired to me.

QuoteSecond, as I have said before if you plan to volunteer for a command position, do your research and save your money.  If you can't afford to do it, don't volunteer. 

Personal opinion duly noted. My personal opinion is that we should have a larger pool of candidates for commander, not a smaller one. Even in a wing as large as Texas, there are usually only 2-3 candidates for wing commander; I don't want to see that number get smaller.

But back to the real topic, the fact that you only want wealthy retired individuals to be commanders has nothing to do with the value of conferences. I believe that the networking that goes on as well as the in person business that occurs makes the cost worth while. I personally will most likely attend at least part of the conference, if for no other reason than to see and talk to some old friends, make some new ones, and see one of my members be honored with a wing of-the-year award. I guess I won't be seeing you there.
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse

Alaric

#63
Quote from: jeders on April 28, 2017, 02:13:47 PM
Quote from: Alaric on April 28, 2017, 02:06:30 PM
First they are not hired, they volunteer and are selected.

Sounds like being hired to me.

QuoteSecond, as I have said before if you plan to volunteer for a command position, do your research and save your money.  If you can't afford to do it, don't volunteer. 

Personal opinion duly noted. My personal opinion is that we should have a larger pool of candidates for commander, not a smaller one. Even in a wing as large as Texas, there are usually only 2-3 candidates for wing commander; I don't want to see that number get smaller.

But back to the real topic, the fact that you only want wealthy retired individuals to be commanders has nothing to do with the value of conferences. I believe that the networking that goes on as well as the in person business that occurs makes the cost worth while. I personally will most likely attend at least part of the conference, if for no other reason than to see and talk to some old friends, make some new ones, and see one of my members be honored with a wing of-the-year award. I guess I won't be seeing you there.

First no matter how you try to twist my words I did not in this thread nor have I ever been a proponent of only wealthy, retired people being commanders.  I am neither of those things and I am a commander (Squadron of course not Wing, Region or National)  I however do not expect the squadron to subsidize my activities because I believe that that is part of what I volunteered for, should there be a time I can no longer afford to participate at the level I feel appropriate for a commander I will step down.  I have no problem with the conferences or people going to them, as long as they are paying for them.  I've been to 2 National Conferences myself, and that in my opinion was 1 too many based on the value received for the value spent.  My issue at the beginning of this and now is that travel to conferences should not be subsidized, if people like yourself believe they have value then those people should have no problem paying their own way.  When the organization at least once a year sends out emails pleading for money, cutting costs on things like subsidizing travel should be a no brainer.

FW

Quote from: Ned on April 28, 2017, 03:51:13 AM

As I pointed out before, conferences -- including the national conference -- are "self funded" and do not take resources from the organization.


Our national conferences are self funded by registration/banquet fees, course fees, and sponsor fees.  Travel expenses by volunteer and corporate leadership are paid by our corporate (non appropriated) dollars.  How we spend our corporate budget is the responsibility of our National Commander and BoG.  It is an expense we've been willing to afford for decades, because our leadership has found value.  Ned has made an excellent argument for keeping the status quo.  I really don't think this is a reason why are membership numbers haven't  climbed.  That is another discussion...

CAPDCCMOM

#65
^^^Great let's invoke, "This is how we have always done it". That is the knee jerk reaction of an ineffective leader, Learn to Lead, Chapter two or three, not sure which, I dont have a copy in front of me.

That will be the epitaph on the tombstone of Civil Air Patrol in about 20 years when all assets are being liquidated. That whole thought process and  the dinosaurs, are killing this program. Combine that with General Lack of Integrity and people just caring about the numbers game.


Oh well the wake should be great!

Spaceman3750

Quote from: CAPDCCMOM on April 28, 2017, 03:17:10 PM
That will be the epitaph on the tombstone of Civil Air Patrol in about 20 years when all assets are being liquidated. That whole thought porcess and  the dinosaurs, are killing this program. Combine that with General Lack of Integrity and people just caring abou the numbers game.

Oh well the wake should be great!

The "death of CAP" will be prevented by dedicated officers such as yourself building high-quality programs in our communities, not arguing on CAPTalk about whether our $65/yr dues are being spent how we want them to be.

If we redirected our energy from arguing on CAPTalk until we're blue in the face about things we have no control over, to our local programs where we have significant influence to do awesome things, how much more could we be accomplishing for the citizens that we serve?

vorteks

Quote from: Spaceman3750 on April 28, 2017, 03:35:31 PM
Quote from: CAPDCCMOM on April 28, 2017, 03:17:10 PM
That will be the epitaph on the tombstone of Civil Air Patrol in about 20 years when all assets are being liquidated. That whole thought porcess and  the dinosaurs, are killing this program. Combine that with General Lack of Integrity and people just caring abou the numbers game.

Oh well the wake should be great!

The "death of CAP" will be prevented by dedicated officers such as yourself building high-quality programs in our communities, not arguing on CAPTalk about whether our $65/yr dues are being spent how we want them to be.

If we redirected our energy from arguing on CAPTalk until we're blue in the face about things we have no control over, to our local programs where we have significant influence to do awesome things, how much more could we be accomplishing for the citizens that we serve?

If CAPTalk is such a waste of time, why do members of national staff and BoG read and answer questions here?

CAPDCCMOM

I take the point about working on my own level. However, at our own levels, these very attitudes are the problem. Spaceman, you say we have no control of these things. That is a dangerous thought. We are the rank and file, we should have the say in how our Ivory Tower members use our money, and resources and assets.

Sitting back and blindly following never let to anything good. This Nation was built on people dissenting and complaining. Back then you did it in a pub, today you do it online.

Spaceman3750

Quote from: vorteks on April 28, 2017, 03:39:36 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on April 28, 2017, 03:35:31 PM
Quote from: CAPDCCMOM on April 28, 2017, 03:17:10 PM
That will be the epitaph on the tombstone of Civil Air Patrol in about 20 years when all assets are being liquidated. That whole thought porcess and  the dinosaurs, are killing this program. Combine that with General Lack of Integrity and people just caring abou the numbers game.

Oh well the wake should be great!

The "death of CAP" will be prevented by dedicated officers such as yourself building high-quality programs in our communities, not arguing on CAPTalk about whether our $65/yr dues are being spent how we want them to be.

If we redirected our energy from arguing on CAPTalk until we're blue in the face about things we have no control over, to our local programs where we have significant influence to do awesome things, how much more could we be accomplishing for the citizens that we serve?

If CAPTalk is such a waste of time, why do members of national staff and BoG read and answer questions here?

I didn't say that it was a waste of time as a whole. I often see a valuable exchange of ideas here. I said that arguing until you're blue in the face about things you can't control is a waste of time - whether on CAPTalk or your Tuesday night meeting.

The bigger point was a renewed focus on providing high quality local programs in order to increase recruiting and retention. Please don't ignore that because you didn't like the second half of my comment.

Spaceman3750

Quote from: CAPDCCMOM on April 28, 2017, 03:51:07 PM
I take the point about working on my own level. However, at our own levels, these very attitudes are the problem. Spaceman, you say we have no control of these things. That is a dangerous thought. We are the rank and file, we should have the say in how our Ivory Tower members use our money, and resources and assets.

Sitting back and blindly following never let to anything good. This Nation was built on people dissenting and complaining. Back then you did it in a pub, today you do it online.

Maybe your comment about "Ivory Tower members" is actually the root of the issue here. Membership feels disconnected from their wing and region membership. This is probably a bunch of problems that are different in every wing. If we felt like we were on the same page as our executive leadership, maybe we would consider them our representative on the national stage, instead of someone who gets a "free" trip to San Antonio.

On not discussing that which I have no control, the balance is probably somewhere in the middle. I just only have so much energy to focus on issues, I'd rather focus it where it counts. Do I have opinions on lots of things? Sure. But when it comes to what I'm willing to fight for, that which I can actually influence is where I'll spend my energy fighting.

Ned

Quote from: CAPDCCMOM on April 28, 2017, 03:51:07 PM
We are the rank and file, we should have the say in how our Ivory Tower members use our money, and resources and assets.


Exactly.  The only reason we have conferences is because the rank and file support them by attending.  Literally.  If the "average member" didn't support them, they would not exist.  The "Ivory Tower Leadership" (which I suppose includes me, although I was a squadron-level guy for over 30 years) does not expend resources or assets on conferences.  The membership does.

It just seems a little mean-spirited to suggest that other members who find value in conferences should not be allowed to attend because some members question the value. 

FWIW, I'm headed up to the Pacific Region Conference this evening.  Happy to pay my own expenses, including my hotel, transportation, and meals.  Come by and say hi.

Alaric

#72
Quote from: Ned on April 28, 2017, 04:08:45 PM
Quote from: CAPDCCMOM on April 28, 2017, 03:51:07 PM
We are the rank and file, we should have the say in how our Ivory Tower members use our money, and resources and assets.


Exactly.  The only reason we have conferences is because the rank and file support them by attending.  Literally.  If the "average member" didn't support them, they would not exist.  The "Ivory Tower Leadership" (which I suppose includes me, although I was a squadron-level guy for over 30 years) does not expend resources or assets on conferences.  The membership does.

It just seems a little mean-spirited to suggest that other members who find value in conferences should not be allowed to attend because some members question the value. 

FWIW, I'm headed up to the Pacific Region Conference this evening.  Happy to pay my own expenses, including my hotel, transportation, and meals.  Come by and say hi.

That's a little disingenuous a very small minority of the rank and file support the conferences by attending. Also how can you say the leadership is not expending resources or assets when they are either being paid for or reimbursed for their travel. That money comes from dues and are indeed CAP assets. Once again speaking for myself I don't care how people choose to spend their own money but if the rank and file can pay for their own conferences so can everyone in command. After all they have value right?

Ned

Quote from: Alaric on April 28, 2017, 04:52:04 PM

That's a little disingenuous a very small minority of the rank and file support the conferences by attending.

Really?  "disingenuous"? 

This is a thread about conferences.

Specifically, the CAP summer conference.  When hundreds of members get together for multiple purposes.  I suggest it is a little "disingenuous" to suggest that it is somehow invalid because only a small percentage of the membership attends.  Because that is the norm, not the exception.  The president is speaking at the NRA convention today.  What percentage of NRA members go to their national convention?  (Hint:  less than the percentage of CAP members attending our conference.)  My church meets biennially in a General Assembly.  What percentage of church members do you suppose attend the General Assembly?  (Hint: less than the percentage of CAP members attending our conference.)  Twice in her 35 year career in tech, my wife has been rewarded with a trip to CES in Las Vegas.  What percentage of tech employees do you suppose get to go to CES?  (etc., etc., etc.)

Literally hundreds of our "rank and file members" find enough value to spend thousands of dollars to attend.  Obviously, you and others don't want to go.  Again, it just seems a little mean-spirited that you would tell them they can't go.  Simply because you disagree about how they should spend their own money.  My suggestion is to "let it go," and let your colleagues make their own choices about their money and value received.

It sounds like what you really want to argue about is whether or not the Command Council, BoG, and CSAG should have their meetings at or near the same time as the conference.  That is certainly a worthy discussion, but probably deserves it's own thread.  As I mentioned, both the BoG and CSAG regularly meet by teleconference and, rarely, so does the Command Council.  And they also meet in person.  For which they have a travel budget, pretty much like every other major corporation in the world, including 501C3s like the Red Cross, Scouting, and the Salvation Army.  Reasonable minds can certainly differ about how often governing bodies should meet in person, but ultimately, it is their decision to make.  Ultimately the BoG decides budget items, and so far they see value in funding occasional in-person meetings.  Your disagreement notwithstanding.



FW

Quote from: CAPDCCMOM on April 28, 2017, 03:17:10 PM
^^^Great let's invoke, "This is how we have always done it". That is the knee jerk reaction of an ineffective leader, Learn to Lead, Chapter two or three, not sure which, I dont have a copy in front of me.

That will be the epitaph on the tombstone of Civil Air Patrol in about 20 years when all assets are being liquidated. That whole thought process and  the dinosaurs, are killing this program. Combine that with General Lack of Integrity and people just caring about the numbers game.


Oh well the wake should be great!

So there isn't a valid reason for our leadership to get a travel allowance to attend?

Actually, until the Air Force could no longer provide airlift to our membership, attendance to National Conferences went well over 1000 members.  Some years, closer to 2000 came to enjoy the event.  It would be nice if the BoG and CAP-USAF could find some way of making this happen again; then, maybe more could find "value" in it.  There is value in coming together face to face.  Would there be more value to the membership if CAP made it easier and more affordable to attend?

CAPDCCMOM

#75
^^^^ If I have to pay for, my room, meal, transportation, and cost for the event, they can as well.

Lead by example. If money is that tight at the Wing level and Squadron level, that we keep hearing about budget cuts for Programs. Then yes, divert their transportation budget and put it back in the Air or on Cadets.

I see no value in sitting and hearing the "Little Yellow Plane Story" for the umpteenth time. Give me real training or real education.

We bring things up and the "leadership" smiles, nods, and tells us how valuable we are. Then back to business as usual.

CAP is 15 years behind in technology, communcations, and we wonder why other agencies won't work with us. That is what needs to be spent on, not a travel budget.

SarDragon

Quote from: CAPDCCMOM on April 28, 2017, 07:03:58 PM
^^^^ If I have to pay for, my room, meal, transportation, and cost for the event, they can as well.

Lead by example. If money is that tight at the Wing level and Squadron level, that we keep hearing about budget cuts for Programs. Then yes, divert their transportation budget and put it back in the Air or on Cadets.

I see no value in sitting and hearing the "Little Yellow Plane Story" for the umpteenth time. Give me real training or real education.

We bring things up and the "leadership" smiles, nods, and tells us how valuable we are. Then back to business as usual.

CAP is 15 years behind in technology, communications, and we wonder why other agencies won't work with us. That is what needs to be spent on, not a travel budget.

You are not required, by nature of your position, required to attend. The folks that get the free ride are. This no different that other corporations.

Have you ever been to a National Conference? I attended the on in San Diego, in 2010. It was local for me, so it was easy to attend. I commuted every day, but I spent almost as much in gas and parking as the hotel room would have cost, so I'll consider that as a wash.

It was very worthwhile. There was real training and real education. I got to meet the folks you call "Ivory Tower members". Guess what? They are real people, just like you and me. I also got to put faces with a bunch of the folks who post on here.

They move it around the country, so it's in someone's regional area every year. Here's the list of locations back to 2002:

2016     Nashville, TN
2015     Orlando, FL
2014     Las Vegas, NV
2013    Denver, CO
2012     Baltimore, MD
2011     Louisville, KY
2010     San Diego, CA
2009     San Antonio, TX
2008     Kissimmee, FL
2007     Atlanta, GA
2006     Reno, NV
2005     St. Louis, MO
2004     Tampa, FL
2003     Las Vegas, NV
2002     Philadelphia, PA

As noted elsewhere, this year is back in San Antonio, and next year will be in Los Angeles. I'm going.

Also of note is that each of these locations is in, or close to, what's called a destination city. They have airports directly accessible (n0n-stop flights) from most other large and medium cities. They have hotels big enough to support the event and the guest load.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

EMT-83

Quote from: Spaceman3750 on April 28, 2017, 04:06:46 PM... Membership feels disconnected from their wing and region membership...

If only there was a way to meet other members and those in leadership positions. Perhaps attend some seminars together, or sit together at a meal, or maybe belly up to the bar. Too bad there's nothing in place that allows that to happen.

Alaric

Quote from: Ned on April 28, 2017, 05:31:07 PM
Quote from: Alaric on April 28, 2017, 04:52:04 PM

That's a little disingenuous a very small minority of the rank and file support the conferences by attending.

Really?  "disingenuous"? 

This is a thread about conferences.

Specifically, the CAP summer conference.  When hundreds of members get together for multiple purposes.  I suggest it is a little "disingenuous" to suggest that it is somehow invalid because only a small percentage of the membership attends.  Because that is the norm, not the exception.  The president is speaking at the NRA convention today.  What percentage of NRA members go to their national convention?  (Hint:  less than the percentage of CAP members attending our conference.)  My church meets biennially in a General Assembly.  What percentage of church members do you suppose attend the General Assembly?  (Hint: less than the percentage of CAP members attending our conference.)  Twice in her 35 year career in tech, my wife has been rewarded with a trip to CES in Las Vegas.  What percentage of tech employees do you suppose get to go to CES?  (etc., etc., etc.)

Literally hundreds of our "rank and file members" find enough value to spend thousands of dollars to attend.  Obviously, you and others don't want to go.  Again, it just seems a little mean-spirited that you would tell them they can't go.  Simply because you disagree about how they should spend their own money.  My suggestion is to "let it go," and let your colleagues make their own choices about their money and value received.

It sounds like what you really want to argue about is whether or not the Command Council, BoG, and CSAG should have their meetings at or near the same time as the conference.  That is certainly a worthy discussion, but probably deserves it's own thread.  As I mentioned, both the BoG and CSAG regularly meet by teleconference and, rarely, so does the Command Council.  And they also meet in person.  For which they have a travel budget, pretty much like every other major corporation in the world, including 501C3s like the Red Cross, Scouting, and the Salvation Army.  Reasonable minds can certainly differ about how often governing bodies should meet in person, but ultimately, it is their decision to make.  Ultimately the BoG decides budget items, and so far they see value in funding occasional in-person meetings.  Your disagreement notwithstanding.

Ned, you keep putting words in my mouth.  I have no problem with the conferences or people attending them as long as they are paying their own way.  Our leadership does not, we the members pay for them.  That was the thrust of my original post and no matter how you try to twist it, is still the thrust of my argument. 

Alaric

Quote from: FW on April 28, 2017, 06:32:22 PM
Quote from: CAPDCCMOM on April 28, 2017, 03:17:10 PM
^^^Great let's invoke, "This is how we have always done it". That is the knee jerk reaction of an ineffective leader, Learn to Lead, Chapter two or three, not sure which, I dont have a copy in front of me.

That will be the epitaph on the tombstone of Civil Air Patrol in about 20 years when all assets are being liquidated. That whole thought process and  the dinosaurs, are killing this program. Combine that with General Lack of Integrity and people just caring about the numbers game.


Oh well the wake should be great!

So there isn't a valid reason for our leadership to get a travel allowance to attend?


In my opinion, no there is not, if the leadership had to pay their own way perhaps they'd be a little more concerned about the cost of this event and work to minimize it so who knows, more people could afford to come.

Ned

Quote from: Alaric on April 28, 2017, 11:12:11 PM
Ned, you keep putting words in my mouth.  I have no problem with the conferences or people attending them as long as they are paying their own way.  Our leadership does not, we the members pay for them.  That was the thrust of my original post and no matter how you try to twist it, is still the thrust of my argument.
So, you realize that there would still be a command council meeting even if the national conference was  cancelled, right?  Because they meet in person twice a year.  (And having the meeting in conjunction with the national conference actually saves money.)

So again, your beef has nothing to do with the actual conference.  You and others are just expressing the non-mainstream view that volunteer leaders should have to pay out of their own pockets for mandatory meetings required to carry out their duties.

Obviously, you are entitled to your opinion.  Perhaps you could point to one or more other major corporations, including charitable corporations like ours, that makes their leadership pony up the money to attend mandatory national meetings.  I can save you a little trouble on the Google search.  It's not the Red Cross, Scouting, or any major church.  All of which apparently fund necessary travel for their leadership.  Including the volunteer leadership.

While we are waiting for your response, please address the effect on volunteer availability, diversity aspects, and morale of our senior leaders when forced to pay a few extra thousand dollars a year to "volunteer."

As part of our recent governance reorganization, I've spent a lot of hours looking at how other major charitable organizations organize and treat their volunteer leadership.  I've worked closely with our consultants, a lot of corporate lawyers working in the non-profit arena, and multiple academics who specialize in non-profit governance.  And while there are a lot of interesting approaches, I didn't see a single successful national organization that does what you suggest.

I look forward to your response.

Ned Lee

Alaric

#81
Quote from: Ned on April 29, 2017, 12:19:36 AM
Quote from: Alaric on April 28, 2017, 11:12:11 PM
Ned, you keep putting words in my mouth.  I have no problem with the conferences or people attending them as long as they are paying their own way.  Our leadership does not, we the members pay for them.  That was the thrust of my original post and no matter how you try to twist it, is still the thrust of my argument.
So, you realize that there would still be a command council meeting even if the national conference was  cancelled, right?  Because they meet in person twice a year.  (And having the meeting in conjunction with the national conference actually saves money.)


Ned Lee

Yes, but since only approximately 70 people are required at the Command Council they wouldn't need to be at expensive hotels, nor would it be more than a weekend.  Since the argument you made for selecting hotels such as the 2017 NC is that they need to be able to handle hundreds of people, if it was only the command council then that need would be eliminated. If they need to meet in person twice a year perhaps its time for a change.  I once again recommend they embrace technology.  Many companies I have worked for have meetings via videoconference and telecon all the time to save money (as they have a responsibility to the shareholders to minimize costs and maximize profit) Then the national conference would be for those who have the wherewithal and desire to pay to go, network and have a great time.   

Volunteer leaders pay their own way in CAP all the time.  I'm a member of the wing staff and need to travel to the wing staff meeting every month; as deputy group commander I need to attend events all over the the group which is a large geographical area, as squadron commander in addition to of course going to meetings I also need to attend things like the wing conference and any group commanders call.  My fellow leaders and I pay our own way and as I'm sure you're aware given your vast CAP experience it is at the lower levels of command that someone is far more likely to be thrust into a command position as opposed to preparing for it and "running" for it as is done at Wing at higher levels.

I've been a volunteer with the American Red Cross for 10 years and I've been to regional conferences as far as I know everyone paid their own way but of course I've never asked so I could very easily be wrong of course there are no member dues in the Red Cross, once again none that I have ever seen so its a little bit of an apples and oranges comparison.

The only other charitable organizations I have personally been involved in have been the Masons and the Shriners but they are organized on state (Masons) or center (Shrine) lines and therefore there is great diversity on how they deal with financial matters.  I do know that when people planned to be the Potentate they started saving years in advance due to the large out of pocket expenses involved with the taking of this volunteer leadership position

I guess we would actually have to see what the effect would be by actually requiring the leadership to pay that extra few thousand.  When we the members are being asked to contribute money above and beyond dues to the organization its time for us to take a hard look at costs and cut wherever we can, after all what to you think the effect of volunteer availability, diversity aspects, and morale of our rank and file will be as they are constantly needing to dip into their pockets while the senior leadership is spending their money attending conferences?

etodd

#82
Try this experiment at all the National, Regional and Wing Conferences for a year.

Eliminate the Saturday night dinner and awards banquet. Tell folks they are on their own to enjoy a night out on the town and suggest some local restaurants. Any that want to network, could do it on their own.

My bet is that attendance would be cut in half, if not more.   >:D
"Don't try to explain it, just bow your head
Breathe in, breathe out, move on ..."

MSG Mac

#83
Quote from: etodd on April 29, 2017, 03:01:48 AM
Try this experiment at all the National, Regional and Wing Conferences for a year.

Eliminate the Saturday night dinner and awards banquet. Tell folks they are on their own to enjoy a night out on the town and suggest some local restaurants. Any that want to network, could do it on their own.

My bet is that attendance would be cut in half, if not more.   >:D

Actually ditching the Banquet at these events generally saves the cost of a hotel room and the banquet equates to about a $200 savings.
Some Wings have to review their conference requirements. Our neighbors in NATCAP have their one day conference at Andrews AFB and their banquet at Bolling, AFB. Total cost about $40 for the banquet The conference was free.
MDWG's conference is a three day affair Friday evening through Sunday a.m. Rooms $109/night and $75 registration to include the banquet. Cadets have a flat fee of $165 for everything., including lodging (4 per room). 

We should be looking at bases that have conference centers or college that have classrooms available on a weekend. Big savings without extra cost for resort fees, A/V setups, etc. Just because we often say "Come and Pay" we don't have to live up to the motto.

Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
50 Year Member

Ned

#84
So, you can't find a single large organization that requires their paid or volunteer leadership to pay out of pocket for mandatory national meetings?


OK, then.   Are we done?


Quote from: Alaric on April 29, 2017, 01:22:24 AM

Volunteer leaders pay their own way in CAP all the time.

Of course.  Just like all the current wing and region commanders do all the time for local stuff.  Out of curiosity, as a wing staff guy paying out of your own pocket, just how many airfares and hotel rooms have you paid for out of pocket for mandatory meetings?  Wouldn't a travel budget have helped you perform your duties?


Paul Creed III

Many of the conferences I attend in my paid life have tele-conference options so one can choose to be on-site or attend many of the sessions from a remote location for a cheaper conference rate. Having such an option available would allow for more folks to attend at least a portion of the conference. Not everyone can burn the leave time from work or the Benjamins for the travel but, with the tele-conference option, one could still get the benefit of the sessions.

Banquets, which are typically optional, are something that should continue to recognize those folks who have earned some bling. Take away the opportunity to show off the new hardware and it could lead to further membership declines since the folks who need that public recognition would go to an organization that provides it.
Lt Col Paul Creed III, CAP
Group 3 Ohio Wing sUAS Program Manager

Alaric

#86
Quote from: Ned on April 29, 2017, 09:14:34 AM
So, you can't find a single large organization that requires their paid or volunteer leadership to pay out of pocket for mandatory national meetings?


OK, then.   Are we done?


Quote from: Alaric on April 29, 2017, 01:22:24 AM

Volunteer leaders pay their own way in CAP all the time.

Of course.  Just like all the current wing and region commanders do all the time for local stuff.  Out of curiosity, as a wing staff guy paying out of your own pocket, just how many airfares and hotel rooms have you paid for out of pocket for mandatory meetings?  Wouldn't a travel budget have helped you perform your duties?

Every year there is a commander's call the Sunday after the Wing conference (varies with the year).  Every SAREX that is more than an hour away from my home, and at least 1 PD weekend a year.   Where as I'm sure it would have helped my bottom line, I knew what I was getting into and if it becomes untenable, just like any other aspect of my duties I will step down

Alaric

Quote from: Ned on April 29, 2017, 09:14:34 AM
So, you can't find a single large organization that requires their paid or volunteer leadership to pay out of pocket for mandatory national meetings?


OK, then.   Are we done?


You can be done whenever you want Colonel.  I didn't look for other organizations as a) I don't believe their travel policies would be online and b) as has been mentioned on any number of occasions we are a very unique organization. For instance you drew a comparison with the Red Cross.  The Red Cross for instance does not collect dues from its volunteers to subsidize other volunteers, as I have belonged to a church since I was in 8th grade I really have no clue how they work.

Just because we have always done it that way and others do it that way do not mean that is the way it should be done

"Humans are allergic to change. They love to say, "We've always done it this way." I try to fight that. That's why I have a clock on my wall that runs counter-clockwise." - Grace Hopper

"Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone." ― John Quincy Adams

Ned

Argument by aphorism.  Sure:

"Change simply for the sake of change is an abdication of leadership."  John Luke.

So, it sounds like we agree that reimbursement of necessary travel for the volunteer and paid leadership of a national organization is the norm.  We also agree that the leadership should minimize costs by meeting electronically when feasible.  Which the CAP leadership does.

Our only area of disagreement appears to be your strongly held personal opinion that - despite the mainstream position of reimbursing the leadership for necessary national travel, CAP shouldn't do that.  Even if that means that ordinary members of modest means could never be wing and region commanders.

OK, then.  I'm going downstairs to General Assembly.  Thank you for the discussion.


Alaric

#89
Quote from: Ned on April 29, 2017, 02:21:12 PM
Argument by aphorism.  Sure:

"Change simply for the sake of change is an abdication of leadership."  John Luke.

So, it sounds like we agree that reimbursement of necessary travel for the volunteer and paid leadership of a national organization is the norm.  We also agree that the leadership should minimize costs by meeting electronically when feasible.  Which the CAP leadership does.

Our only area of disagreement appears to be your strongly held personal opinion that - despite the mainstream position of reimbursing the leadership for necessary national travel, CAP shouldn't do that.  Even if that means that ordinary members of modest means could never be wing and region commanders.

OK, then.  I'm going downstairs to General Assembly.  Thank you for the discussion.

I note you skip the rest of the statement I made and concentrate on the quote.  For instance that the Red Cross does not take money from volunteers and use it for other volunteers.  If the travel allowance is so mainstream why don't we make it part of the operational budget paid for by the Air Force? 

Quote from: Ned on April 29, 2017, 02:21:12 PM
Even if that means that ordinary members of modest means could never be wing and region commanders.

Really, what about all those members who are not wing and region commanders who show up?  Are you saying the people that are supporting the national conference are some sort of wealthy elite?  Is the conference really just a meeting of the CAP members that are the 1% :)?   People are now incapable of saving for goals and limiting travel to what is absolutely necessary?  However do the rest of us ever get by?

Enjoy the General Assembly.  Back to the Encampment for me.