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50 Shades of Grey

Started by blackrain, January 27, 2017, 12:36:32 AM

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blackrain

Ok I've sworn I would never start a uniform thread but somehow this seemed to be the right time and the title was too hard to pass up. >:D A few days ago on a chilly morning a pilot who shall remain nameless was conducting O-Rides in a corporate uniform when the uniform Nazi's saw photo of him with a couple of cadets after an Oride and decided his shade of grey wasn't dark enough and could in case of a mishap could cause benefits to be denied. Apparently said pilot has worn these same pants to other functions in the past and there were no issues from the same higher ups attending the same functions. It seems the intrepid pilot forgot his training as a youthful underwear model and failed to make sure the lighting for the CAP photo shoot was proper and the pants appeared lighter in the picture. Higher-ups have threatened to force him to undergo surgery and take the place of a certain former intelligence analyst at FT Leavenworth for his fashion infractions.

I know 39-1 says medium grey is the right color  but I've googled that color and there is a pretty wide scale shone in the images as medium grey. I've personally seen a pretty wide range of shades of grey pants worn over my years in the wing. I would venture if tight consistency is wanted then the only and more expensive option is to specify certain manufacturers and monitor for quality like the military. As is often the case as the powers that be filter in and out over the years then what is the pet peeve for one is not for another.

Any other wings have a "Shades of Grey" battle? Obviously purchasing a darker shade is in order for said pilot and an avoidance of appearing in uniform in photos unless absolutely necessary
"If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly" PVT Murphy

Spaceman3750

Unless the complainer in question is a member of the pilot's chain of command, I would ignore them and move on with life.

YMMV.

etodd

Quote from: blackrain on January 27, 2017, 12:36:32 AM

..... when the uniform Nazi's saw photo of him .....

Weeding out the Nazis would go a long way toward recruiting and retention issues.
"Don't try to explain it, just bow your head
Breathe in, breathe out, move on ..."

CAPDCCMOM

#3
True many are way overzealous in pursuit of 39-1 perfection. I am tired of the attitude that those that wear Blues are somehow inherently superior to those that wear Corporate.  But one thing that concerns me right now is the clamoring about Recruiting and Retention.  Soon we will bust our butt to retain those that should be cut loose, and recruit members just for the numbers. 

Perhaps we need to focus on not cutting standards, just to keep numbers. Empty shirts can lead to morale issues. Worrying about the retention of an unmotivated Cadet or Senior Officer is a waste of time.


etodd

Quote from: CAPDCCMOM on January 27, 2017, 03:41:13 AM
True many are way overzealous in pursuit of 39-1 perfection. I am tired of the attitude that those that wear Blues are somehow inherently superior to those that wear Corporate.  But one thing that concerns me right now is the clamoring about Recruiting and Retention.  Soon we will bust our butt to retain those that should be cut loose, and recruit members just for the numbers. 

Perhaps we need to focus on not cutting standards, just to keep numbers. Empty shirts can lead to morale issues. Worrying about the retention of an unmotivated Cadet or Senior Officer is a waste of time.

Agree with all of the above. But its balance. We are not "Air Force Basic Military Training" but lie somewhere in-between that and other volunteer orgs like Boy or Girl Scouts. Its all about balance.

JMHOs of course.
"Don't try to explain it, just bow your head
Breathe in, breathe out, move on ..."

CAPDCCMOM

Dear sweet Mother of Pearl!!!!!!! We are not the BSA!!!!

The Air Force uniform must be worn to Air Force Standards! Amen and end of debate. I have heard school Squadrons allowing Cadets,  male, to keep hair down to their waist, with out Wing CC permission, be cause they are special. All in the name of R & R.


etodd

I said somewhere in-between.  We certainly are not BMT either.  Hence the 'balance'.
"Don't try to explain it, just bow your head
Breathe in, breathe out, move on ..."

NIN

Quote from: etodd on January 27, 2017, 02:03:47 AM
Weeding out the Nazis would go a long way toward recruiting and retention issues.

Its so true, its in my sig...
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Thonawit

50 Shades of Grey, must be talking about my beard or the muzzle of my German Shepard.

How about the multitude of uniforms that CAP Members wear for a single event. I will use the last SAREX I went to as an example.

BDU
ABU
Blue BDU
Corporate (lots of variation on the pants)
Class B
Class A
Green Flight Suit
Blue Flight Suit
Civilian Attire
"Taticool" BDU
"Taticool" ABU

I think I saw more variety or uniforms the you would see on the deck of an aircraft carrier.


I am waiting to see Mess Dress at a SAREX, where is my Mission Coffee Officer?
Regularly contradicts, contradicted CAP Regulations...

CAPDCCMOM

Mess Dress for Mission Coffee Officer?

How about one uniform for Seniors and Air Force Blues for Cadets?



PHall

Quote from: CAPDCCMOM on January 27, 2017, 04:17:47 AM
Dear sweet Mother of Pearl!!!!!!! We are not the BSA!!!!

The Air Force uniform must be worn to Air Force Standards! Amen and end of debate. I have heard school Squadrons allowing Cadets,  male, to keep hair down to their waist, with out Wing CC permission, be cause they are special. All in the name of R & R.

You got a cite (pics) for that, or are you just spreading "urban myths". If you are spreading urban myths, stop it!!!

MSG Mac

Quote from: CAPDCCMOM on January 27, 2017, 04:17:47 AM
Dear sweet Mother of Pearl!!!!!!! We are not the BSA!!!!

The Air Force uniform must be worn to Air Force Standards! Amen and end of debate. I have heard school Squadrons allowing Cadets,  male, to keep hair down to their waist, with out Wing CC permission, be cause they are special. All in the name of R & R.

They're talking about CAP corporate uniforms-NOT USAF
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
50 Year Member

ThatOneGuy

Quote from: CAPDCCMOM on January 27, 2017, 04:54:49 AM
Mess Dress for Mission Coffee Officer?

How about one uniform for Seniors and Air Force Blues for Cadets?
And make all the Senior Members wear corporates, even those who are fit to wear the AF uniform in weight, grooming and so on? Yeahh unless CAP can design a good looking corporate uniform which rivals the blues in class, I will have to pass on that one.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


ColonelJack

Quote from: ThatOneGuy on January 27, 2017, 08:16:29 AM
Quote from: CAPDCCMOM on January 27, 2017, 04:54:49 AM
Mess Dress for Mission Coffee Officer?

How about one uniform for Seniors and Air Force Blues for Cadets?
And make all the Senior Members wear corporates, even those who are fit to wear the AF uniform in weight, grooming and so on? Yeahh unless CAP can design a good looking corporate uniform which rivals the blues in class, I will have to pass on that one.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

We had one, remember?

Jack
Jack Bagley, Ed. D.
Lt. Col., CAP (now inactive)
Gill Robb Wilson Award No. 1366, 29 Nov 1991
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
Honorary Admiral, Navy of the Republic of Molossia

lordmonar

A:   Tell the Uniform Nazi "Show me in the manual what shade of gray is "gray"."

B:  The the uniform Nazi to stop.....please......spreading that ridiculous myth about uniforms vs mishaps.

C:  While it is good that all of us should be pressing our peers to maintain standards.....you best know what you are talking about before you bring someone to task.

Full Disclosure....I tend to be a uniform Nazi myself.   I will point out infractions to the culprit and I will follow up if I'm told "but my commander said..." through the appropriate chain of command.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

etodd

Quote from: lordmonar on January 27, 2017, 01:32:43 PM

Full Disclosure....I tend to be a uniform Nazi myself.   I will point out infractions to the culprit ......

So before I happen to run your way ... which specific color gray will you be looking for?
"Don't try to explain it, just bow your head
Breathe in, breathe out, move on ..."

lordmonar

Quote from: etodd on January 27, 2017, 04:42:46 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on January 27, 2017, 01:32:43 PM

Full Disclosure....I tend to be a uniform Nazi myself.   I will point out infractions to the culprit ......

So before I happen to run your way ... which specific color gray will you be looking for?
Gray.

They point is that the Manual does not specify the shade of gray.....ON PURPOSE!  So if a reasonable person can tell that they are gray.....then they are good.



PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

A.Member

#17
Quote from: lordmonar on January 27, 2017, 01:32:43 PM
B:  The the uniform Nazi to stop.....please......spreading that ridiculous myth about uniforms vs mishaps.
This x 1000.

Such b.s.  We should institute corporal punishment for any member that continues to perpetuate this crap.  Let the beatings begin.  ;) :)
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

ProdigalJim

Quote from: lordmonar on January 27, 2017, 04:52:06 PM
Quote from: etodd on January 27, 2017, 04:42:46 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on January 27, 2017, 01:32:43 PM

Full Disclosure....I tend to be a uniform Nazi myself.   I will point out infractions to the culprit ......

So before I happen to run your way ... which specific color gray will you be looking for?
Gray.

They point is that the Manual does not specify the shade of gray.....ON PURPOSE!  So if a reasonable person can tell that they are gray.....then they are good.

I'm 100% with Pat (who looks pretty darn good in his blues, by the way  ;D ). My big beef is not built around Blues v. Corporate. I just hate it when people walk around looking like an unmade bed.

Yes, indeed, there are no "grooming standards" in the sense of the beard prohibition, etc., but that's not carte blanche to roll out looking like you fished your polo shirt out from under the back seat of your car. There are certainly basic appearance standards outlined in the 39-1 even for the Corporate uniforms and I think they should be followed.

You'll see sentences like "Shirt will be tucked neatly into trousers," or "Hair must be clean, well groomed and neat," or "All members must ensure uniform items and civilian clothing (when worn acting in an official capacity) are maintained, clean, and in serviceable condition (that is, not frayed, worn out, torn, faded, patched, etc.), correct in design and specifications, and fit properly."

So...tuck in the shirt, don't let your hair flop down over your eyebrows, and get the ketchup stain off your aviator shirt!

I've seen aviator shirts bulging so badly that I can see the member's navel, or shirt-tails dangling behind the back, or gray trousers wrinkled like prunes, or badges hanging askew on an aviator shirt, and yes it bugs me. To be fair, I've also seen myriad violations among Blues-wearers, so they're not off the hook. But when it comes to the Corporates, there's a difference between a relaxed standard and no standard.

"Medium Gray" means...anything that can reasonably be thought of as gray that doesn't look black and doesn't look white. Thumbs-up, you're in compliance, rock on.

But I can't help but look sideways at people who won't wear whatever uniform they choose -- corporate or blues -- neatly, cleanly and correctly.
Jim Mathews, Lt. Col., CAP
VAWG/XP
My Mitchell Has Four Digits...

ThatOneGuy

Quote from: ColonelJack on January 27, 2017, 01:00:42 PM
Quote from: ThatOneGuy on January 27, 2017, 08:16:29 AM
Quote from: CAPDCCMOM on January 27, 2017, 04:54:49 AM
Mess Dress for Mission Coffee Officer?

How about one uniform for Seniors and Air Force Blues for Cadets?
And make all the Senior Members wear corporates, even those who are fit to wear the AF uniform in weight, grooming and so on? Yeahh unless CAP can design a good looking corporate uniform which rivals the blues in class, I will have to pass on that one.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

We had one, remember?

Jack
Ah yes, RIP the CSU, that was a pretty good looking combo (IMHO.)

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk


Toad1168

Quote from: ProdigalJim on January 27, 2017, 05:28:13 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on January 27, 2017, 04:52:06 PM
Quote from: etodd on January 27, 2017, 04:42:46 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on January 27, 2017, 01:32:43 PM

Full Disclosure....I tend to be a uniform Nazi myself.   I will point out infractions to the culprit ......

So before I happen to run your way ... which specific color gray will you be looking for?
Gray.

They point is that the Manual does not specify the shade of gray.....ON PURPOSE!  So if a reasonable person can tell that they are gray.....then they are good.

I'm 100% with Pat (who looks pretty darn good in his blues, by the way  ;D ). My big beef is not built around Blues v. Corporate. I just hate it when people walk around looking like an unmade bed.

Yes, indeed, there are no "grooming standards" in the sense of the beard prohibition, etc., but that's not carte blanche to roll out looking like you fished your polo shirt out from under the back seat of your car. There are certainly basic appearance standards outlined in the 39-1 even for the Corporate uniforms and I think they should be followed.

You'll see sentences like "Shirt will be tucked neatly into trousers," or "Hair must be clean, well groomed and neat," or "All members must ensure uniform items and civilian clothing (when worn acting in an official capacity) are maintained, clean, and in serviceable condition (that is, not frayed, worn out, torn, faded, patched, etc.), correct in design and specifications, and fit properly."

So...tuck in the shirt, don't let your hair flop down over your eyebrows, and get the ketchup stain off your aviator shirt!

I've seen aviator shirts bulging so badly that I can see the member's navel, or shirt-tails dangling behind the back, or gray trousers wrinkled like prunes, or badges hanging askew on an aviator shirt, and yes it bugs me. To be fair, I've also seen myriad violations among Blues-wearers, so they're not off the hook. But when it comes to the Corporates, there's a difference between a relaxed standard and no standard.

"Medium Gray" means...anything that can reasonably be thought of as gray that doesn't look black and doesn't look white. Thumbs-up, you're in compliance, rock on.

But I can't help but look sideways at people who won't wear whatever uniform they choose -- corporate or blues -- neatly, cleanly and correctly.


:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:  Exactly the point I was trying to make.
Toad

SarDragon

Quote from: ThatOneGuy on January 27, 2017, 05:43:46 PM
Ah yes, RIP the CSU, that was a pretty good looking combo (IMHO.)

Yeah, it was an OK uniform, but poorly implemented. Only part of the people who needed it could wear it. Those of us with "grooming deficiencies" weren't allowed to wear it. Any alternate dress uniform needs to be all or none for those of us unable to wear the AF-style garb.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

blackrain

#22
Thanks to all for the replies. Can be frustrating over apparently trivial issues. Some time ago at a SAREX a rated AD Air Force CPT came straight from work in his AD flightsuit with sewn on AD rank but CAP patches in the place of his regular uniform patches. The officer was confronted by a portly CAP (and uniform Nazi) officer who had never worn other than a CAP uniform in his life and not knowing the AD officer stated that civilians had no business wearing real military rank. The AD officer told the portly CAP officer that he had no business being 50lbs overweight and looking like a sausage. Right or wrong on the uniform it was a [darn] funny moment and I thought of the not so long ago edict from my civilian leadership that made it mandatory to wear a tie while briefing at or above a certain level. Apparently these were magical ties that erased 50 plus pounds of belly fat and the accompanying unprofessional image that was projected by that same supervisor.

Maybe someone way up the CAP food chain will read the thread and interject just a little sanity/common sense. We can always hope
"If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly" PVT Murphy

Eclipse

Quote from: SarDragon on January 27, 2017, 08:34:32 PM
Quote from: ThatOneGuy on January 27, 2017, 05:43:46 PM
Ah yes, RIP the CSU, that was a pretty good looking combo (IMHO.)

Yeah, it was an OK uniform, but poorly implemented. Only part of the people who needed it could wear it. Those of us with "grooming deficiencies" weren't allowed to wear it. Any alternate dress uniform needs to be all or none for those of us unable to wear the AF-style garb.

Hippie.

"That Others May Zoom"

N6RVT

Quote from: Eclipse on January 29, 2017, 05:38:22 AM
Quote from: SarDragon on January 27, 2017, 08:34:32 PM
Quote from: ThatOneGuy on January 27, 2017, 05:43:46 PM
Ah yes, RIP the CSU, that was a pretty good looking combo (IMHO.)

Yeah, it was an OK uniform, but poorly implemented. Only part of the people who needed it could wear it. Those of us with "grooming deficiencies" weren't allowed to wear it. Any alternate dress uniform needs to be all or none for those of us unable to wear the AF-style garb.

Hippie.

I had forgotten the days when we had triple standards.  As if double wasn't enough.

N6RVT

Quote from: Thonawit on January 27, 2017, 04:51:42 AM
50 Shades of Grey, must be talking about my beard or the muzzle of my German Shepard.

How about the multitude of uniforms that CAP Members wear for a single event. I will use the last SAREX I went to as an example

Civilian Attire
"Taticool" BDU
"Taticool" ABU

Members were engaged in SAREX activity without being in any uniform at all?

Alaric

Quote from: N6RVT on January 29, 2017, 02:34:43 PM
Quote from: Thonawit on January 27, 2017, 04:51:42 AM
50 Shades of Grey, must be talking about my beard or the muzzle of my German Shepard.

How about the multitude of uniforms that CAP Members wear for a single event. I will use the last SAREX I went to as an example

Civilian Attire
"Taticool" BDU
"Taticool" ABU


Members were engaged in SAREX activity without being in any uniform at all?

Ive seen people show up in no uniform to drop off, or in the case of a Wing Commander, just to check on how things are going but never to participate

Fubar

Quote from: N6RVT on January 29, 2017, 02:34:43 PMMembers were engaged in SAREX activity without being in any uniform at all?

Quick scan of CAPM 39-1 where uniforms are required for wear:

Quote1.2.4.2. Members are normally required to wear a CAP uniform (either USAF- or Corporate-style) when working with cadets, when flying in a CAP aircraft (Corporate or member owned aircraft used in a CAP flight activity), or when conducting business under a CAP mission number (A, B, or C). Region commanders, wing commanders, and activity directors may stipulate appropriate civilian clothes while traveling to and from events by ground, or during events not involving flight where it is appropriate to wear civilian clothes.

Some less than strong language in there as normally required doesn't mean shall, will, or must, which is all defined one section before. Heck, it doesn't even mean should which is also defined.

After defining a bunch of directive terms, why not use one of them in the very next section?

Eclipse

#28
^ As a "manual", 39-1 can't prescribe, only provide "guidance and procedures".

The uniform requirements for members during various operations are found in other publications such as 60-1.

"That Others May Zoom"

Fubar

Quote from: Eclipse on January 31, 2017, 05:52:45 AM
^ As a "manual", 39-1 can't prescribe, only provide "guidance and procedures".

So why does it define shall, will or must if it can't use them? Rhetorical for sure, I'm not here to shoot the messenger.

What a mess.

SarDragon

Quote from: Eclipse on January 31, 2017, 05:52:45 AM
^ As a "manual", 39-1 can't prescribe, only provide "guidance and procedures".

The uniform requirements for members during various operations are found in other publications such as 60-1.

Wrong answer. Emphasis mine.

Quote from: CAPR 5-4
1.j. "Publication" means regulations, manuals, pamphlets, operating instructions, any other documented guidance and supplements thereto. A "directive publication" is a regulation or manual that establishes compliance standards.

CAPM 39-1 certainly establishes compliance standards.


Quote from: Fubar on January 31, 2017, 05:11:16 AM
Quote from: N6RVT on January 29, 2017, 02:34:43 PMMembers were engaged in SAREX activity without being in any uniform at all?

Quick scan of CAPM 39-1 where uniforms are required for wear:

Quote1.2.4.2. Members are normally required to wear a CAP uniform (either USAF- or Corporate-style) when working with cadets, when flying in a CAP aircraft (Corporate or member owned aircraft used in a CAP flight activity), or when conducting business under a CAP mission number (A, B, or C). Region commanders, wing commanders, and activity directors may stipulate appropriate civilian clothes while traveling to and from events by ground, or during events not involving flight where it is appropriate to wear civilian clothes.

Some less than strong language in there as normally required doesn't mean shall, will, or must, which is all defined one section before. Heck, it doesn't even mean should which is also defined.

After defining a bunch of directive terms, why not use one of them in the very next section?

Emphasis added above. SAREXs qualify under that portion of that paragraph. There may be instances where, due to the nature of the mission, a uniform might not be appropriate.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Eclipse


"That Others May Zoom"

Storm Chaser

The "normally requires" language in CAPM 39-1 is there to account for the few instances when a uniform is not required, not desired, or not practical, most which are covered by regulation. A few come to mind, such as counterdrugs missions in which a law enforcement agency asks CAP not to wear a uniform (CAPR 60-6, Para. 2-8), glider or balloons flights (CAPR 60-1, Para. 2-3d(1)), and physical fitness training (couldn't find a reference, but there is no official CAP PT uniform).