Seniors and Cadets wearing Sage Green Boots

Started by capsr, January 23, 2017, 07:22:13 AM

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capsr

Over the past few months I had to correct this issue on several occasions. First had a Chaplain visit the squadron (CAP Captain) shows up in the ABU's with his sage green boots. I pulled him to the side and spoke to him and he goes on tell me his squadron commander (at a large AF Base) authorized it because CAP members keep getting yelled at on the base by Active Army and Air Force members to include one getting detained at SF because they didn't know the uniform rules and thought the member was impersonating an officer. He said from behind they think the younger CAP members are AD Air Force and yell at them for the boots.

A cadet in my squadron comes in with them on and claims he can't afford any boots and got them free from the base Airman's Attic. We ended up buying some online from Amazon for him.

At an Air Show on Miramar Marine base ran into another group on CAP SM's/Cadets with several wearing the sage green boots. Spoke to their Senior who couldn't care less and thought it wasn't an issue as he was AD Air Force and thought both boots are acceptable regardless of what the reg states.

Anyway, what are your thoughts on this and have any others on here encountered similar issues?

Abby.L

Ooohhhh boy someone get the popcorn ready.

In all seriousness, the regs are the regs. My squadron meets on an active AFB,  and despite having been approached by some active MSgts who were... "Curious" to say the least, I have found most AD guys are capable of enough intelligence to figure out that we have a different regulation, especially if the victim discloses as much.

Being AD myself, I actually hate the black boots. But again, regs are regs, and whatever AFB these issues occur on will eventually figure that out.

Sent from my LG-V521 using Tapatalk

Capt Abby R. Lockling
SSgt(Sep) USAF, 41ECS
Charlie flight, NBB 2013

Fubar

Just to be clear, I'm not shooting the messenger here. It sounds to me like you know this isn't right, but feel like you're not sure what you can do about it.

Quote from: CAPM 39-11.1.2.1. COMPLIANCE WITH THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY. This publication is the sole source for wear instructions and authorized items for various uniform combinations as prescribed within. Variation from this publication is not authorized. Items not listed in this publication are not authorized for wear with uniforms. Local commanders do not have the authority to waive grooming and appearance standards.

Sounds to me like you've had folks that rationalized what they're doing, even though they know it's against the rules. You did the right thing, quietly discussed the matter with those that needed an intervention. While you probably have more influence over your cadets (and kudos to you for helping the cadet out), you'll probably have to reach out the chaplain's commander since the chaplain wasn't receptive to your correction. Same thing with the senior member at the air show.

If the chaplain and his commander really think this is a problem, it seems to me a 5 minute meeting with the base security folks would solve this problem instead of blatantly breaking our rules.

audiododd

If SF was accusing a member who was wearing BLUE name tapes, BLUE rank background, and a BLUE branch tape that says "CIVIL AIR PATROL," then cops are dumber than I thought!  I'm just kidding about the dumb part, but seriously...impersonating an officer??  Gimme a break.  That should have been easily fixed by calling the Duty Sgt.  If it's a regular issue, I agree w/FUBAR.  A call or email from the CAP squadron commander to the SFS commander (or Chief, or Shirt) indicating that there is some confusion about CAP uniforms vs. AD uniforms and request that they bring it up at the next commander's call (don't want to say his people are wrong...cops don't like that) should take care of the problem.  I do, however know plenty of AD shirts and chiefs that are just itching to call someone out on uniform issues.  If you guys meet on an active base, maybe that's a "learning opportunity" for base leadership.  Somehow, get leadership to share with their members that there's a CAP sq on base and that their uniforms are just a bit different.  I know at my base there are mailing lists for the Top-3 and 1st Sgts and any many other groups (chiefs, CGOs, etc.).  That's an easy way to disseminate the information.

Regs are regs...I don't like the black boots either.  I have to keep my AD uniforms in one closet and my CAP uniforms in another closet to make sure I don't make any mistakes if I'm in a hurry.  As far as the AD guy that thinks it's OK -- that's a BIG problem in my world.  It shows me that he has no respect for regulations, whether CAP or AD.  If he can't be bothered to read the regulations and abide by them in a volunteer role, it makes me think he doesn't care about regulations in his AD role.  If the cadets see that he doesn't care about regulations, they either a) won't care either or b) won't respect his opinions if they know he's in the wrong or c) both of the above.  It's hard to hold someone accountable when there is no UCMJ or punitive actions you can take.  Somehow, you have to get people to realize that wearing the uniform is part and parcel of being a CAP member.
Dodd Martin, MSgt, CAP
MSgt, USAF (Ret.)
Squadron NCO
Safety/Comm/Admin/Personnel/IT
TMP - MO - MS - MRO - MSO

kwe1009

Sorry I'm going to have to call BS on this.  I think the OP is telling the truth but I firmly believe that he is being lied to on multiple occasions.

A Wing CC, much less a Squadron CC does not have the authority to countermand any regulation unless it is a safety issue.

I can't see SF detaining anyone who is not military for a uniform violation.  It is hard for me to even imagine SF detaining an AD person unless it was a serious uniform violation.

Eclipse

^ +1

There are simple ways to deal with this, all involving direct conversations.

Anyone shows up to a unit meeting with something that glaring, Chaplain or otherwise, they get a discreet conversation with
a follow-up to their CC, and probably /cc'ed to the Wing CC to insure a "Boss Memo" comes out on the issue.

Beyond that, you can only fix your AOR, but within those walls, members need to understand the rules, regs, and
who controls the organization.

It makes no sense that CAP members would get hassled about boot color, but >not< about nametape color.

These are people who want to wear green boots telling tales.

"That Others May Zoom"

Angus

Quote from: kwe1009 on January 23, 2017, 02:49:35 PM
Sorry I'm going to have to call BS on this.  I think the OP is telling the truth but I firmly believe that he is being lied to on multiple occasions.

A Wing CC, much less a Squadron CC does not have the authority to countermand any regulation unless it is a safety issue.

I can't see SF detaining anyone who is not military for a uniform violation.  It is hard for me to even imagine SF detaining an AD person unless it was a serious uniform violation.

What the OP was indicating is that SF were detaining our members who were wearing the uniform correctly, but SF that they were impersonating an AD Officer. 
Maj. Richard J. Walsh, Jr.
Director Education & Training MAWG 
 Gill Robb Wilson #4030

kwe1009

Quote from: Angus on January 23, 2017, 02:58:56 PM
Quote from: kwe1009 on January 23, 2017, 02:49:35 PM
Sorry I'm going to have to call BS on this.  I think the OP is telling the truth but I firmly believe that he is being lied to on multiple occasions.

A Wing CC, much less a Squadron CC does not have the authority to countermand any regulation unless it is a safety issue.

I can't see SF detaining anyone who is not military for a uniform violation.  It is hard for me to even imagine SF detaining an AD person unless it was a serious uniform violation.

What the OP was indicating is that SF were detaining our members who were wearing the uniform correctly, but SF that they were impersonating an AD Officer.

What I'm saying is that I don't believe SF is detaining any CAP member for uniform violations (actual or perceived).  I think the OP is being fed a line of BS from people who just want to wear the ugly green boots.

By the way, the green boots were not popular when ABUs first came out.  Most people I heard from either thought that the USAF should stay with black boots or go with tan like the Army since everyone who had deployed in the previous decade had a pair of tan boots already.

Eclipse

Aren't Maintainers and other in high-grease environments still wearing black?  Or was that changed?

"That Others May Zoom"

abdsp51

Quote from: Eclipse on January 23, 2017, 03:34:41 PM
Aren't Maintainers and other in high-grease environments still wearing black?  Or was that changed?

This was changed a few years ago.  Anyone working in areas that had a the authorization to wear black boots now wear a sage leather boot. 

MSG Mac

Stop by the SF office and present them with a copy of R39-1, explain to the Commander or 1Sgt that the CAP has a different regulation that does not allow us to wear the sage boots. leave the Regulation so that they can pass this information along to their subordinates. Also drop the 39-1 at the Uniform shop so that they won't sell the wrong boots to CAP members.
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
50 Year Member

abdsp51

Quote from: MSG Mac on January 23, 2017, 05:26:27 PM
Stop by the SF office and present them with a copy of R39-1, explain to the Commander or 1Sgt that the CAP has a different regulation that does not allow us to wear the sage boots. leave the Regulation so that they can pass this information along to their subordinates. Also drop the 39-1 at the Uniform shop so that they won't sell the wrong boots to CAP members.

No action will be taken.  I highly doubt that some CAP membet got heamed up for impersonating.

kwe1009

It is odd that USAF personnel will "yell" and "detain" CAP members for wearing black boots but not say a word about the blue name tapes, blue background officer ranks, cadet ranks, or colorful patches on the pockets and sleeves.

THRAWN

Quote from: kwe1009 on January 23, 2017, 08:56:21 PM
It is odd that USAF personnel will "yell" and "detain" CAP members for wearing black boots but not say a word about the blue name tapes, blue background officer ranks, cadet ranks, or colorful patches on the pockets and sleeves.

Must have been the same officer that demanded a salute and then bombed a Nazi sub...
Strup-"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
USMC CSCDEP 2023

abdsp51

Quote from: kwe1009 on January 23, 2017, 08:56:21 PM
It is odd that USAF personnel will "yell" and "detain" CAP members for wearing black boots but not say a word about the blue name tapes, blue background officer ranks, cadet ranks, or colorful patches on the pockets and sleeves.

Yup.  Been on both sides of the fence on that one. And most base cops have bettsr thing to do and cut their teeth on than detaining a CAP member.

NIN

Quote from: THRAWN on January 23, 2017, 08:58:24 PM
Must have been the same officer that demanded a salute and then bombed a Nazi sub...

"Twice."


Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
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The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

capsmov

Just want to chime in here regarding what actually happened to me once when I was in Germany. In 2015, I was a fairly new member of CAP and an Active Duty Senior Airman. I lived off base with my wife and was coming through the gate to attend an 1830 meeting in the CAP Blues uniform. As I stopped at the gate I gave SF's my AD CAC card and he looked at me strange as I had 2nd Lt CAP ranks on. He asked me what it was and I explained to him even showing him my CAP ID and he told me to pull over to the side. He called in a supervisor who was also perplexed at everything and said he was detaining me under the suspicion of violating the UCMJ Article 134. After a good 20 minutes and a quick ride to the SF Desk Sergeant everything was cleared up. I just wanted to put this out there because it happened to me once, so I wouldn't be quick to call the OP's story false.   

dwb

I am also familiar with bases where CAP has an active presence being confused on why we lag so far behind USAF on uniform things.

Quite a while back, we had USAF folks at the local ANG asking why we (senior members) didn't have rank on our BDU cap. All of their people did, and it was confusing them that we didn't. Eventually CAP caught up.

They wondered why we didn't have Gore Tex parkas sooner, then why people didn't have slip-on ranks for the parkas, and most recently were perplexed that we were still in BDUs at all when they had been in ABU for years.

Point being, at the grassroots level, it's actually easier for our people to look like their people (or be in completely CAP distinctive uniforms so we stand out as definitively CAP). This mish-mash stuff we've been doing only leads to more confusion, IMO.

abdsp51

If the so called alleged detainment happened then it is like what under 1%?  I can guarantee you that Security Forces has better and bigger things to do and worry about than CAP impersonating anyone.  An they especially have better and bigger things to do than to detain for a uniform violation.

So taking 39-1 to them and giving it to the CC or the shirt is not going to benefit anyone. 

Since I have been back in the program for the last four years outside of one occasion I never had any issues with Security Forces personally.  The unit I was part of had a couple of hiccups and those hiccups were rectified relatively quickly.

The one instance I had was rectified then and there. 

If what the OP has alleged to be true then there was more to it or it is hearsay.

PHall

Showing them the current 39-1 would be a waste of time anyway since there is nothing in the 39-1 regarding ABU's.
The wear instruction letters are just that, letters. And they have zero authority.
It would take only about an hour or two for National to incorporate the ABU Wear Instructions in to the 39-1.
Maybe they'll get around to it, maybe...