College Choice: Senior or Cadet

[C/Arose]

Hello all,

To cover my bases, on a quick search, nothing related turned up. Therefore,

My situation is as follows: I joined CAP at almost 16 in Sophomore year. I'm now a Chief, applying to colleges and all that fun stuff. I am from New Hampshire, and my top choice is Texas A&M University, where I am almost sure that I will be an Automatic Academic admit with some decent scholarship aid. The problem is that within the next year, I have to make that much-maligned decision of whether to stay a cadet or go to the dark side as a Flight Officer.

On the cadet side, I'd be able to continue staffing events like Encampment. I would have time to get my Spaatz, if I so chose, and could remain friends with some of my fellow cadets.

However, as a Flight Officer, I'd probably be able to go back to Encampment as a TAC Officer. I would be able to begin my Senior career per-se attending things like TLC and getting specialty tracks in order. On a less serious note, I'd enjoy the novelty of being the rare Flight Officer. And above all, moving two thousand miles seems like a good time to make that sometimes hard break from Cadet to Senior.

To those who've been in this position before or know more than I, I'd appreciate your advice.

Thank you very much,

V/R

ALEX L. ROSE, C/CMSgt, CAP
Cadet NCO-IC
NER-NH-010

[Jaison009]

Get your Spaatz. It will mean so much more to you then becoming a FO and you will appreciate the CP side of the house so much more later on. I would stay a cadet until 21 and then transition. Plenty of time to become a SM.

[Elioron]

Stay a cadet as long as you can.  You may not be active at all during school, but you'll have more fun opportunities during the summer and possibly even winter break.  It's hard to do anything as a SM unless you have time to devote to a staff position, which you probably won't during the actual term.

[Ned]

I remained a cadet until I was nearly 22 and had my best times in the last four years.

And FWIW, I was able to serve as an (assistant) TAC officer at encampment when I was 20 and a C/Lt Col.  I learned a great deal and it greatly eased my transition to the Dark Side.  That is entirely up to your wing.  It sounds like you have a couple of years to talk to them about it.

Other perks of remaining as a cadet:  scholarships, IACE, and higher levels of CAC.  On behalf of your parents and the taxpayers, please apply for a CAP scholarship.  Even if you are on a 100% ride to Texas A&M, who doesn't need a new iPad or books?

Seriously, there is a lot of stuff on the side of remaining a cadet, and virtually nothing to be gained by turning senior.  It's a no-brainer.

Ned Lee
#356

[Jaison009]

 :clap: :clap: :clap:

I remained a cadet until I was nearly 22 and had my best times in the last four years.

And FWIW, I was able to serve as an (assistant) TAC officer at encampment when I was 20 and a C/Lt Col.  I learned a great deal and it greatly eased my transition to the Dark Side.  That is entirely up to your wing.  It sounds like you have a couple of years to talk to them about it.

Other perks of remaining as a cadet:  scholarships, IACE, and higher levels of CAC.  On behalf of your parents and the taxpayers, please apply for a CAP scholarship.  Even if you are on a 100% ride to Texas A&M, who doesn't need a new iPad or books?

Seriously, there is a lot of stuff on the side of remaining a cadet, and virtually nothing to be gained by turning senior.  It's a no-brainer.

Ned Lee
#356

[Jaison009]

 :clap: :clap: :clap:

Stay a cadet as long as you can.  You may not be active at all during school, but you'll have more fun opportunities during the summer and possibly even winter break.  It's hard to do anything as a SM unless you have time to devote to a staff position, which you probably won't during the actual term.

[Jaison009]

I don't know anything about them but here is the squadron info for College Station, TX:
GEORGE H.W. BUSH COMPOSITE SQUADRON
Unit Contact: Eddie D Gose
Contact Phone: 979-229-3660
Contact e-mail: e-gose@tamus.edu
Meeting Address: 6120 EAST HIGHWAY 21,COULTER FIELD FBO
BRYAN, TX 77808
Unit Web Address: http://www.tx041cap.org
Meeting Time: 1900 TUESDAY
Charter Number: SWR TX041
Unit Notes: 1ST THRU 3RD WEEKS AT COULTER FIELD. FOURTH WEEK AT TEEX DIASTER CITY. SEE WEBSITE FOR DETAILED INFO.

[JC004]

I can speak to this as a former Flight Officer. 

I made my decision because the local unit was not in good shape, higher headquarters were undecided on what to do about fixing the unit, I already had my diamond and I could do more work at the Group level as a Senior Member.  Since new cadets were not getting processed into the local unit, there really wasn't chance for growth and making a real impact there.

I'd at least recommend staying into the cadet officer grades and doing as much as you can as a cadet (try to at least get to a diamond or 2).  Also, I'd recommend that if you become a SM, to take a break from cadet programs for a while (for the most part, anyway).  It can be hard to be a Flight Officer because most of your friends are cadets -- even many of your OLDER friends.  It's an awkward position to be in, and it takes a lot to draw that line, make it clear to cadets that they won't get special treatment from you, etc.  Many of my friends were older than me and they were cadets.  It was...interesting.  Eventually, down the road, I took the advice of a Senior Member who I talked to about the issue, and mostly did stuff like ES instead of direct CP.

But if you don't have to and there isn't a major benefit to CAP locally of you being a Senior Member in some needed/neglected positions, stay a cadet and do as much as you can with what you have left. 

Fun story: I was getting an award at a wing conference one year.  As I stood up front, behind me was the head table.  Someone from National saw my insignia and I could hear the conversation behind me...he said
National Person: "What's that?  That one doesn't have any insignia on his epaulets; just lines." 
Wing Person: "He's a Technical Flight Officer."
National Person: "What is that?"
Wing Person: "It means he's under 21, so he isn't eligible for 1st Lt yet."
National Person: "So he's a cadet?"

I also had a Senior Member flip out at me one time.  He kept yelling "CADET" from the other side of a building.  I was very busy as Comm Unit Leader and didn't pay him any mind, figuring he was having an issue with the cadets outside.  All my cadets were accounted for, so I didn't even bother to look at him.  He came storming over to me and started reaming me out.  I just looked at him and let him finish.  After a good deal of yelling stuff like "HOW DARE YOU IGNORE ME WHEN I ADDRESS YOU, CADET?!,"  I calmly explained that I wasn't a cadet (he promptly turned red), had to explain what a Flight Officer is, and let him know that regardless of rank, I was in charge of the unit and he couldn't just come tell me what I should be doing in my unit.

When you're a Flight Officer, you can have a lot of little issues and confusion along the way - not the least of which is the transition to adult life, adult friends, and that tug of having older friends who you're obligated to protect and care for because they're cadets.

[Peeka]

On a less serious note, I'd enjoy the novelty of being the rare Flight Officer.

Fun story: I was getting an award at a wing conference one year.  As I stood up front, behind me was the head table.  Someone from National saw my insignia and I could hear the conversation behind me...he said
National Person: "What's that?  That one doesn't have any insignia on his epaulets; just lines." 
Wing Person: "He's a Technical Flight Officer."
National Person: "What is that?"
Wing Person: "It means he's under 21, so he isn't eligible for 1st Lt yet."
National Person: "So he's a cadet?"

Couldn't resist. 

[SJFedor]

Colgan says I have to put my feedback in here as well....

So, I was a former cadet turned FO. My decision to cross over had a lot of things play into it. Right after high school, I headed off to college and stayed on the cadet side, which was fine. My unit let me test whenever I was back home (only 2-3hrs away), and they were very supportive of my progression. However, after a semester of too much "college" activities, I found I needed to see the real world for a bit.

Now, keep in mind that I became a pilot right after I graduated high school, and I was super eager to use my shiny new wings. The general atmosphere where I was at the time was that, if I wanted to get into mission aircrew activities, I really needed to cross over to the dark side even though the regulations said I could do those as a cadet (it got old carrying around a 60-3 and trying to explain it). Plus being able to jump onto some non-mission flying (maintenance flights, etc) was tough as a cadet, because the majority didn't understand that, even as a 18 year old C/2d Lt, I held a valid F5 and had the same privs as them. So, I bridged over. I didn't have a lot of desire to keep progressing, to do IACE or grab scholarships, or to really do much else as a cadet at that point, because I was 18, knew everything, and had it all figured out. 

So, I crossed. I did have some involvement in the cadet side as the "Leadership Officer", but I also started working heavily on the air ops side, and started doing my senior progression (first met Colgan when he taught my SLS, and since him and I were quite possibly the only 2 FO's in the wing, so we had our FO mafia club). I ended up moving about 7-8 months after I crossed over (a TFO now) to Tennessee, and was thankfully invited in with open arms. I ended up serving as a unit and group level Operations/ES Officer for a bit of time, then as a Wing ES Training Officer when I moved to Indiana for my first real EMS job, and kinda stayed away from the cadet program for a few years.

So, it worked for me. I had a lot of similar issues like Colgan had w/ grade recognition and whatnot. Think people are confused when they see a FO? You should see the confusion when you're a SFO and running a group level exercise. People didn't know to make heads or tails out of me. I got asked if I was a cadet many times, treated like one occasionally, but I just kinda rolled w/ the flow and the people that needed to know what I was, knew very well and gave me the respect and responsibility that came with it.

Bottom line: do what's best for you. Colgan had to cross over because of a vacuum of leadership, I crossed because I wanted more flight and operations exposure. If you're gonna be in college, you might as well stay with the cadet side of the house. Get everything you can out of it to make yourself a better person, and cross when the time is right for you. There's a plethora of wonderful advice in this thread, I'd definitely take it all into consideration.

[Eclipse]

There's a clock on Spaatz and a calendar on being a Senior Member.

Try your best for the diamonds, then even if you don't make it you won't look back thinking "what if".

[Майор Хаткевич]

There's a clock on Spaatz and a calendar on being a Senior Member.

Try your best for the diamonds, then even if you don't make it you won't look back thinking "what if".

This.

You may find College takes up a lot of time, with virtually ZERO to do CAP stuff.
or
You may find the time to get the Spaatz.

I've the former, and know cadets, past and present who have run into both situations.

[Storm Chaser]

When I graduated high school, I was a C/Capt and thought I would continue in CAP as a cadet until I turn 21. But then life happened. Things are very different in college when compared to high school and interests changed. After a short period of inactivity, I decided to become a senior member as a TFO. As such, I was able to contribute to CAP in a different way. By the time I turned 21, I was a Group Safety Officer. And while I would've liked to earn my Spaatz, I don't really regret not doing so. I think I gained far more experience as a senior member than I would've gotten as a Phase IV cadet.

Life is full of choices and opportunities. You have to do what's best for you. And sometimes, life circumstances change and you need to adapt. These posts are full of good advice, but ultimately you have to make the decision. And whatever you decide, you should try to make the best of it. Good luck!

[Jaison009]

 :clap: :clap: :clap:

There's a clock on Spaatz and a calendar on being a Senior Member.

Try your best for the diamonds, then even if you don't make it you won't look back thinking "what if".

[JC004]

...
I had a lot of similar issues like Colgan had w/ grade recognition and whatnot.
...

I also had one activity where I was told that I had to sleep in a certain place "with the other cadets."  I had a difficult time explaining why that wouldn't be appropriate and had to talk to several people about accommodations.  It can all be a bit of a hassle at times.

[BillB]

Several years ago a concept floated around NHQ to allow former cadets with the Earhart test for the Spaatz as a senior member. This was during the Viet Nam war era and so many cadets went military after turning 18. if i remember the senior member that earned the Earhart could take the Spaatz test up to age 25. The idea actually came from Commander CAP-USAF.

[Panache]

Pretty much what everybody else is saying.

When I turned 18 I transitioned from cadet to Flight Officer, and looking back at it now, I regret that decision.

Just to add my thoughts: as a Flight Officer, there are a significant amount of limitations as to what you can and can not due as a Senior Member.  There were times when a SMWOG was able to perform certain duties and tasks that I, as a TFO, was not, simply because I wasn't 21 yet.

Also, (IMHO), the insignia for the FO grades are godawful ugly.  I always felt like I was in the navy wearing those stripes on my shoulders.

Stay a cadet and try for a diamond or three, if at all possible.

(fun bit of trivia:  the only time I've ever had a RealMilitary Airman salute me by accident was when I was a Flight Officer.  But maybe that has to do with the fact that I'll go out of my way to avoid Airman when I'm on base in uniform now)

[a2capt]

You've got the rest of your life to be senior, you've got until 21 to reap the rewards that a cadet can get.

[SarDragon]

You've got the rest of your life to be senior, you've got until 21 to reap the rewards that a cadet can get.

That says it all!

[Майор Хаткевич]

Where's that AF Blues comic about the "oldest lieutenant I've ever seen"...

[Mitchell 1969]

Several years ago a concept floated around NHQ to allow former cadets with the Earhart test for the Spaatz as a senior member. This was during the Viet Nam war era and so many cadets went military after turning 18. if i remember the senior member that earned the Earhart could take the Spaatz test up to age 25. The idea actually came from Commander CAP-USAF.

There were at least 2 versions of that concept, but they were substantially the same. STP and ACT. "Senior Transition Program" and "Advanced Cadet Transition." I was in the latter.

The deal was...must be 18, with at least Mitchell. Appointment was to WO or CWO, depending on award held. One could advance to CWO. We were considered to be officers, definitely were Senior Members. But...we could also complete additional cadet achievements, test for Spaatz, apply for Cadet Special Activities.

I don't think 25 was possible though. The deal then was one could stay as a cadet (or ACT senior) until first renewal date past 21st birthday. In theory, that could be day before 22nd birthday, but I had worked out a way to do it until day before my 23rd.

I got into it late, though. I was a 20-year old C/LtCol, with time as Wing and Region CAC Chairman. I'd been to Flying Encampment (powered license), been on IACE twice, had been cadet commander at two different squadrons, been on Wing Staff 18 months, and served as Assistant Tactical Officer at an encampment. I was a "Senior Member in cadet's clothing," in essence. All that was left was the Spaatz. I got offered a CP Officer position at a Group HQ so I went ACT and became a WO.

About 3 months later I was asked to take over as a Squadron Commander. A week later, I turned 21, almost died from peritonitis, got a job promotion and suddenly realized that I was done with being a cadet. Even the Spaatz wasn't enough to interest me. So, I asked the Group Commander to put me in for 1LT.

But, the point of all this is to second what Ned wrote in his post - my after-age 18/after-high school cadet years were my best cadet years.

[flyboy53]

Although it has been well said many times already, stay as a cadet and earn that Spaatz. You can't go back and you may live with the regret of never striving to achieve that pinnacle honor.

Achieving that level will make it easier for you once you transition to senior member status. Not before

[TCMajor]

Cadet Rose,

   Stay a cadet and go to Norwich!  Your a great cadet!  There is a very strong CAP presence there, as you know, and many of them are working towards Spaatz including my son.  I have had the honor of serving alongside many great Norwich grads over my military career.  As stated earlier, A&M is a very big school and the cadets are not as large a part of it as you would think (the M stands for mechanical, not military, I believe). However, they do have a big maritime side if you are leaning that way.  Galveston is not a bad place to spend winters.   VMI is also very much worth a look.  Feel free to talk with me more over the winter.  Also, several Norwich cadets will be attending or helping run RCLS this year.  They will be a good source of information.

Good Luck

[addo1]

I don't know anything about them but here is the squadron info for College Station, TX:
GEORGE H.W. BUSH COMPOSITE SQUADRON
Unit Contact: Eddie D Gose
Contact Phone: 979-229-3660
Contact e-mail: e-gose@tamus.edu
Meeting Address: 6120 EAST HIGHWAY 21,COULTER FIELD FBO
BRYAN, TX 77808
Unit Web Address: http://www.tx041cap.org
Meeting Time: 1900 TUESDAY
Charter Number: SWR TX041
Unit Notes: 1ST THRU 3RD WEEKS AT COULTER FIELD. FOURTH WEEK AT TEEX DIASTER CITY. SEE WEBSITE FOR DETAILED INFO.

I'm not part of this squadron, but am a member of the Corps of Cadets at Texas A&M here in College Station. I can answer questions regarding the local program. We also do occasional activities with our 100-something cadets/SMs in the Corps.

[addo1]

Cadet Rose,

   Stay a cadet and go to Norwich!  Your a great cadet!  There is a very strong CAP presence there, as you know, and many of them are working towards Spaatz including my son.  I have had the honor of serving alongside many great Norwich grads over my military career.  As stated earlier, A&M is a very big school and the cadets are not as large a part of it as you would think (the M stands for mechanical, not military, I believe). However, they do have a big maritime side if you are leaning that way.  Galveston is not a bad place to spend winters.   VMI is also very much worth a look.  Feel free to talk with me more over the winter.  Also, several Norwich cadets will be attending or helping run RCLS this year.  They will be a good source of information.

Good Luck

I would recommend this: visit them all. I visited each of the Senior Military Institutes and found that the Corps of Cadets at Texas A&M was the best for me. Only by truly visiting them all can you find which one suits your desires and goals the best.

[TCMajor]

Agreed. Each school and it's cadets have their own unique personality.  Don't forget to look at Virginia Tech if you are looking at studying any of the hard sciences or engineering.  Last count, I believe they are still the largest cadet group, but VMI has them squarely in their sights.  North Georgia is still pure Army, so if your thinking Air Force don't bother with them. 

[Jaison009]

I had a girlfriend that was a cadet (eventually became an officer) at VT. She never had anything bad to say about the Cadet Corps.

Agreed. Each school and it's cadets have their own unique personality.  Don't forget to look at Virginia Tech if you are looking at studying any of the hard sciences or engineering.  Last count, I believe they are still the largest cadet group, but VMI has them squarely in their sights.  North Georgia is still pure Army, so if your thinking Air Force don't bother with them.

[skymaster]

Agreed. Each school and it's cadets have their own unique personality.  Don't forget to look at Virginia Tech if you are looking at studying any of the hard sciences or engineering.  Last count, I believe they are still the largest cadet group, but VMI has them squarely in their sights.  North Georgia is still pure Army, so if your thinking Air Force don't bother with them.

While the ROTC program at North Georgia is ONLY Army ROTC, and the greater majority of their commissionees are into the Active Army or Army National Guard, they absolutely DO commission people into other branches, especially the Marine Corps and Navy. They even commission occasionally commission people into the Air Force, although the occasional Air Force personnel commissioned out of North Georgia tend to be those headed into assignments in Special Operations, due to the heavy emphasis on Airborne and Air Assault training at the school, or to Med School because of the outstanding pre-med program, or to the Joint Engineering Dual Degree Program with Georgia Tech. Here is a photo of one of the recent Winter Commissioning Ceremonies. The Officer performing the part of the swearing in duties in the photo is Maj Gen Britt, Commander of the Georgia Army National Guard. Note the two Marine commissionees in the left of the photo.

[skymaster]

Echoing the comments of several of the members of this board, I recommend checking out all 6 of the Senior Military Colleges, as all 6 (and even the Service Academies) each have their own unique culture, traditions, training methods, and strengths. I would not dismiss any of them without doing a bit of in-depth research into all of them, with an eye towards what kind of career is intended after graduation. North Georgia's strengths are in the production of career combat arms citizen-soldiers, and in medical career preparation.
Their pre-med program is second to none, with 100% of those who complete the program qualifying for acceptance to the Medical College of Georgia, and the Nursing and Physical Therapy Programs at North Georgia are amongst the best in the nation (especially for those who plan a military career in those fields).

I will also say this of North Georgia: of the 6 Senior Military Colleges, it is the easiest of the 6 to gain admission to, and the easiest to qualify for financial aid for (especially as a member of the Corps of Cadets), but it is also one of the hardest and most academically challenging ones to complete the military program at. Work that would get you an "A" or high "B" at more civilian school like the University of Georgia, will likely get you only a low "C" or a high "D" at North Georgia. The military program there is intense to say the least, intended to break you down, and build you back up into a career military officer, schooled in small unit tactics, absolutely ready to lead in the heat of battle. It will test your mettle in ways that you never thought possible, and you will learn to exercise muscles you never knew you had, as well as use axons that you never knew existed. You will be PTed till you drop, and your character, your appearance, and your very being will be polished to a fine sheen. After graduation from this excellent military program, you will be ready as you will ever be, not only for the battlefield, but also for the boardroom, or the graduate-level classroom.

To be perfectly blunt, if your military career plans are of the "one and done" variety, where you do the absolute minimum amount of military study, seeing your post college military career as a one-term stepping stone to a job with the airlines, then North Georgia is probably not for you. But if you see military service as an awesome responsibility, a career unlike no other, and you wish to be "the tip of the spear", our nation's "sword and shield", and a citizen-soldier like those who helped found this great nation, then maybe you should give North Georgia at least some consideration.

[TCMajor]

Skymaster,

   Great post.  North Georgia is a great school.  Being a retired soldier, they are very near and dear to my heart.  Their high performance at LDAC every year is a clear reflection on the excellence of the program. 

To further confuse the search.  Let's not forget the 5 state maritime colleges for those looking for seagoing careers.  There should be a thread in the cadet section about college commissioning programs.

[skymaster]

Skymaster,

   Great post.  North Georgia is a great school.  Being a retired soldier, they are very near and dear to my heart.  Their high performance at LDAC every year is a clear reflection on the excellence of the program. 

To further confuse the search.  Let's not forget the 5 state maritime colleges for those looking for seagoing careers.  There should be a thread in the cadet section about college commissioning programs.

Thank you, TC Major, for the compliment on my alma mater.  Also, I agree wholeheartedly that there should be a thread of some sort on college commissioning programs, as part of what we do as leaders overseeing the Cadet Programs mission of the CAP includes "helping to develop dynamic aerospace leaders" through a structured cadet program. CAP members of college age can still participate in the Cadet Program right up till their 21st birthday, and not all of them necessarily plan on attending the U.S. Air Force Academy or even necessarily becoming only Air Force officers. Some with military interests might like to explore careers in the other ground and maritime based branches as well.

[HGjunkie]

Where's that AF Blues comic about the "oldest lieutenant I've ever seen"...

[Panache]

It's hard to tell on a phone, but is that soldier wearing CW5 insignia?

(and did I just ruin the joke?)

[TCMajor]

Roger that Panache.  Judging by the color of his lid, he is most likely a 180 series (Special Forces)CW-5. 

[JC004]

Skymaster,

   Great post.  North Georgia is a great school.  Being a retired soldier, they are very near and dear to my heart.  Their high performance at LDAC every year is a clear reflection on the excellence of the program. 

To further confuse the search.  Let's not forget the 5 state maritime colleges for those looking for seagoing careers.  There should be a thread in the cadet section about college commissioning programs.

Thank you, TC Major, for the compliment on my alma mater.  Also, I agree wholeheartedly that there should be a thread of some sort on college commissioning programs, as part of what we do as leaders overseeing the Cadet Programs mission of the CAP includes "helping to develop dynamic aerospace leaders" through a structured cadet program. CAP members of college age can still participate in the Cadet Program right up till their 21st birthday, and not all of them necessarily plan on attending the U.S. Air Force Academy or even necessarily becoming only Air Force officers. Some with military interests might like to explore careers in the other ground and maritime based branches as well.

I've always heard exceptional things about North Georgia over the years, meeting CAP folks from there and such.  I agree with checking into all of them.  That's what I would have done, had I not had a spine that hates me (and asthma after age 12).    

[Johnny Yuma]

I went SM immediately after my 18th birthday and still don't regret it. At the time we had a squadron CC who was incompetent and had it in for several cadets in my unit, one of which was my brother (another story in and of itself). While I was trying very hard to stay out of the fracas the CC decided i was guilty by association and I went to the dark side as soon as I got my Mitchell. I remained a SM for a couple years through a second incompetent CC and left CAP in 1991. I rejoined 10 years later and been back in ever since.

From what I've seen, usually once a cadet goes to college his career as a cadet get derailed unless he's got a LOT of support to continue, especially if the cadet is leaving home for school. Of the numerous cadets I've seen go to college in only 3 instances have I seen a cadet continue to progress through the program successfully. Of those, 2 of them had a found a CAP "family" that effectively adopted them and helped keep them motivated on both school and CAP.

I now I'm one guy paddling against the current here, but I've done that before.

[NM SAR]

I gotta echo the sentiments of the majority: stay cadet as long as you can. I had to go FO, due to a break in service, and it was weird. As people have already pointed out, many of the older Senior Members will likely treat you as a cadet even if you're not, and you'll have more fun as a cadet.

On a side note, when you do transition from cadet to SM, move squadrons. There's just too much force of habit; both the cadets and SM's of your old unit are used to you being a cadet, and will likely continue to treat you as such.

[MSG Mac]

Whether you turn Senior or remain a cadet, if your current squadron is too far away that you won't be an active member transfer to a unit you can be active in. My unit currently has several cadet and senior members who missed advancing because they go to school several hundred miles away and think their not transferring is a sign of loyalty. One got his Spaatz the day before his 21st birthday, another left himself only one try and missed the Spaatz by 1 point.