Orange Vest and the regs.

[ThatOneGuy]

Hi all,

Quick gear question here. According to CAPR 62-1, all GTMs must wear an orange vest meeting ANZI Class 2 whenever they are out in the field. I have been doing ground team ops for about 6 months and currently have a setup with a 24 hour pack and a larger 72 hour pack, which gets quite cumbersome carrying them both. What I was wondering was if I was to get an orange vest (MOLLE or SARMED) that meets class 2 (reflective material) would it be able to count as the "orange vest" per 62-1? I have several friends who already use vests for the 24 hour pack (not in orange) but have to put the orange safety vests over them, diminishing the effectiveness of the vest in the first place. I apologize if this question has been asked before, I searched the forums and couldn't find an answer to that particular question.

Thank you all
:clap:

[davidsinn]

Hi all,

Quick gear question here. According to CAPR 62-1, all GTMs must wear an orange vest meeting ANZI Class 2 whenever they are out in the field. I have been doing ground team ops for about 6 months and currently have a setup with a 24 hour pack and a larger 72 hour pack, which gets quite cumbersome carrying them both. What I was wondering was if I was to get an orange vest (MOLLE or SARMED) that meets class 2 (reflective material) would it be able to count as the "orange vest" per 62-1? I have several friends who already use vests for the 24 hour pack (not in orange) but have to put the orange safety vests over them, diminishing the effectiveness of the vest in the first place. I apologize if this question has been asked before, I searched the forums and couldn't find an answer to that particular question.

Thank you all
:clap:

There is more to ANSI Class II than just reflectivity. It must actually be rated as Class II and must meet a strict scientifically determined standard. If you can find something that is actually rated I wouldn't give any problems with it. The catch is it must actually be rated and I don't know of any tactical/medical vests that are.

[Dad2-4]

If it meets ANSI Class 2 standards it's OK. The regs do not limit the number of pockets that can be made into the vest. In my opinion, an orange ANSI II tactical vest with lots of pockets and pouches is the way to go for 24 hour gear. Thevestguy.com can  make you an ANSI II vest with a wide combination of attachments. He even has a photo or 2 of that very thing.

[Eclipse]

ANSI compliant vests are only required under the following circumstances:

"...anytime a  member's duties may place them within the right-of-way of Federal-aid highways; such as directing traffic, investigating crashes, handling lane closures, obstructed roadways, and disasters within the right-of-way of a Federal-aid highway..."

We rarely do that sort of thing, and when we do, you can carry a cheapie compliant vest from your favorite hardware or big box and throw it
over whatever you are wearing.  If you're stuck working a corner for a prolonged period of time, you probably don't want all your gear on you anyway.

Otherwise I'm sticking with the SARMed for most ops.

[davidsinn]

ANSI compliant vests are only required under the following circumstances:

"...anytime a  member's duties may place them within the right-of-way of Federal-aid highways; such as directing traffic, investigating crashes, handling lane closures, obstructed roadways, and disasters within the right-of-way of a Federal-aid highway..."

We rarely do that sort of thing, and when we do, you can carry a cheapie compliant vest from your favorite hardware or big box and throw it
over whatever you are wearing.  If you're stuck working a corner for a prolonged period of time, you probably don't want all your gear on you anyway.

Otherwise I'm sticking with the SARMed for most ops.

For 51 out of 52 wings that's what it is. For INWG, after 1 Oct 2012, ALL ground teams will wear Class II with no exceptions. So for my wing if you can't prove the vest is actually rated than you can't wear it as the outer layer.

[ThatOneGuy]

How exactly would one go around proving if the vest is rated as Class 2? I've looked at ANSI/ISEA 107-2004 for about an hour and the only requirements I have found is it must cover approx 775 square inches of background material, 201 square inches of reflective material used in conjunction on the garment, the minimum width of the reflective material (1.375 in) and the Minimum number of yards per
retroreflective material width (4 yds. of 1.375 in (35mm) width and/or 2.8 yds. of 2 in. (50mm) width), from what I have gathered, an orange MOLLE tac vest (or orange SARmed vest) with the necessary amount of orange and reflective striping would suffice as Class 2. From what I make of it at least...

[Eclipse]

There will be tags to that effect on the garment.

Very little made outside the last 3-4 years would be compliant.


http://www.hivissupply.com/store/news.cfm?nID=7F5941444C&track=Front%20Page%20News&trackFunctionNotes=ANSI%20Labels%20for%20High%20Visibility%20Clothing

[ThatOneGuy]

So basically go check out if the SARmed vest has tags stating something like "ANZI Class 2 Complient" on the back, and if it is then good to go? If so, then off to troll the web for those  And I would like to thank all of you very much for the input you have provided regarding my question.  :clap:

[Eclipse]

http://www.supplylinedirect.com/know-the-ansi-standard-for-safety-vests--hi-viz-clothing/?ARTICLE_ID=26&F_CATEGORY_ID=1

Some good info on vests - I suppose someone with a ruler could make the case that a legacy vest is compliant, based purely
on the reflective areas the average SARMed is, though as David said there are other parts to the standard as well, including breakaway strength
for certain applications.

And some info on the color:
This varies. There is some science, opinion, and trends on each.
Some studies indicate the florescent yellow green is more conspicuous during hours of low light, such as dusk and dawn. Yellow green is also known as a "pedestrian" color as indicated by school approach signs etc. This color is also a high contrast against traditional orange work zone devices such as traffic cones and construction signs. Conversely, orange may appear to show less dirt, and some reports indicate it fades a little less quickly. Orange is also traditionally known as "the" safety color in work zones. It has a high contrast to background foliage and trees where workers may be present. Local jurisdictions and corporate policies may require a particular color even though neither the Federal ruling nor ANSI/ISEA do not. Whichever color you choose, evaluate your workspaces and make a decision that best provides for the safety of the worker.
http://198.66.168.26/Products/SafetyApparel/Vests_FAQs.htm

[ThatOneGuy]

So additional question for y'all:

Since it seems that painting a MOLLE vest (of the nessisary size) orange and adding the appropriate amount of reflictive material wouldn't satisfy the reqirements of the reg, does anyone know of a place I could find SARmed vests that ARE ANZI class 2 compliant? I'm currently checking out thevestguy for products. Something less than $150 would be nice. 

Thank you again 

[davidsinn]

So additional question for y'all:

Since it seems that painting a MOLLE vest (of the nessisary size) orange and adding the appropriate amount of reflictive material wouldn't satisfy the reqirements of the reg, does anyone know of a place I could find SARmed vests that ARE ANZI class 2 compliant? I'm currently checking out thevestguy for products. Something less than $150 would be nice. 

Thank you again 

Psst, it's ANSI not ANZI. I haven't yet seen one that is truly Class II. The first person to make one will be a rich man.

[ThatOneGuy]

Haha whoops, I just realized that after I hit the post button. 

[SarDragon]

Painting any garment in an attempt to change the color is not recommended. You will end up with a very stiff, very uncomfortable item. Look around. There are many certified items out there, at reasonable prices. I got my vest by mail order for about $20, shipped, and in 15+ quantities, they are just over $10 each, shipped.

[ThatOneGuy]

Probably a very good idea not to paint anything sir, I agree entirely. And the vests you speak of are they just regular vests, or vests that could fit 24 hour gear in them? I've found lots of vests that are ANSI 2 compliant, but very few that could hold all the 24 hour gear required. I'm thinking something like this: http://thevestguy.com/product.asp?id=10367 or this http://thevestguy.com/product.asp?id=10279 could work for a combo safety vest/24 hour pack that satisfies the reg requirements AND carrys all your gear! 

[SarDragon]

Nope, mine is a simple compliant mesh vest, with one small pocket outside, and a medium pocket inside. I don't do GT stuff any more, so this vest meets my UDF and flight line requirements.

[Spaceman3750]

I have an orange harness for my gear (TrueNorth AeroVest). I plan to continue using that in a harness configuration whenever possible. If at some point safety gives me grief, I can convert it into leg pouches and put on the ANSI II vest I carry in my go-bag. That scenario makes water more complicated but is still doable. I think you can get the pouches alone for about $$50/ea and adding a standard vest on top will keep you legal. You could even get some MOLLE type leg harnesses and do it too, all while keeping the safety folks happy.

You could take a look at this, though it's pretty pricey: http://thevestguy.com/product.asp?id=10367

Overall, I'm not sweating the change too much (because I plan on continuing on business as usual). I'm sick of wings making up requirements on top of other requirements put out by NHQ (like what Capt. Sinn pointed out), but until someone asks my opinion I will keep on moving.

[ThatOneGuy]

I've heard a lot of good things about that setup you posted there (the TrueNorth Aero Vest), looks like a very sweet rig. And I have seen that vest before, it was one of the ones I was actually looking at seriously. It's a vest, so 72 hour gear would be no sweat, it's pretty even distribution and ANSI 2 compliant.

I would like to thank you all for your imput on this thread, it has been very valuable and probably stopped me from spending more money than is reasonable.  :clap:

So as for SARmed type vests online, I have so far found this: http://thevestguy.com/product.asp?id=10279 and this http://thevestguy.com/product.asp?id=10367
Either seem like a good choice that would both serve as a 24 hour carrying tool and the safety vest?

[Spaceman3750]

ANSI 2 compliant.

None of the literature I have read indicates that it's ANSI II compliant.

[ThatOneGuy]

You're right. I'll also email thevestguy asking for a certificate of compliance or something along the line for the two products, as they look pretty sweet but are pricey, so want to make sure they'd work before forking out the cash on them.

[cap235629]

I asked the vest guy and he said he will make any vest in his line ANSI II compliant.....for a price....

[ThatOneGuy]

Yes, a price indeed. Well I think it's time to start saving up for one of those babies 

[Eclipse]

In most cases, manufacturers aren't actually sending their products into "x" for certification, what they do is build to a submitted spec, which is in turn
provided to the certifying body and they provide the authorization to include the respective tags.  Practical inspections and random sampling are
dependent on the risk tolerance of the certifying body.

Just about any garment could be made to physically comply with ANSI II, it's not really that big a deal, but absent the little tag, it's a coffee house argument
as to whether physical / actual compliance is enough vs. a 3rd party saying the garment's specification is compliant (i.e. little tag).

Then there's the group who believe "vest" somehow equals "armband", etc.  You can grind beans all day on orange vs. yellow, ANSI, etc.,
but these members don't want to cover their $500 tac rig with a $12 vest, and simply ignore the regs altogether.

Absent two sentences from NHQ which specifies the issue, or wing supplements which do, this will be added to the list of other arguments we have here all the time.

[lordmonar]

In most cases, manufacturers aren't actually sending their products into "x" for certification, what they do is build to a submitted spec, which is in turn
provided to the certifying body and they provide the authorization to include the respective tags.  Practical inspections and random sampling are
dependent on the risk tolerance of the certifying body.

What is the difference?  Do they send it in for certification or don't they?

[SarDragon]

They send in the spec sheet, not the item. The same thing happens for our radios on NTIA specs.

[gmby]

http://www.supplylinedirect.com/know-the-ansi-standard-for-safety-vests--hi-viz-clothing/?ARTICLE_ID=26&F_CATEGORY_ID=1

Some good info on vests - I suppose someone with a ruler could make the case that a legacy vest is compliant, based purely
on the reflective areas the average SARMed is, though as David said there are other parts to the standard as well, including breakaway strength
for certain applications.

And some info on the color:
This varies. There is some science, opinion, and trends on each.
Some studies indicate the florescent yellow green is more conspicuous during hours of low light, such as dusk and dawn. Yellow green is also known as a "pedestrian" color as indicated by school approach signs etc. This color is also a high contrast against traditional orange work zone devices such as traffic cones and construction signs. Conversely, orange may appear to show less dirt, and some reports indicate it fades a little less quickly. Orange is also traditionally known as "the" safety color in work zones. It has a high contrast to background foliage and trees where workers may be present. Local jurisdictions and corporate policies may require a particular color even though neither the Federal ruling nor ANSI/ISEA do not. Whichever color you choose, evaluate your workspaces and make a decision that best provides for the safety of the worker.
http://198.66.168.26/Products/SafetyApparel/Vests_FAQs.htm

We should note that CAPR 62-1, Section 7, states:  "By October 1, 2012, all safety vests and safety apparel will be required to meet ANSI Class 2 or 3 visibility and reflectivity standards."  That is, irrespective of what are the complete ANSI Class 2 and 3 standards, our vests need only comply with Class 2 or 3 visibility and reflectivity standards.

[davidsinn]

http://www.supplylinedirect.com/know-the-ansi-standard-for-safety-vests--hi-viz-clothing/?ARTICLE_ID=26&F_CATEGORY_ID=1

Some good info on vests - I suppose someone with a ruler could make the case that a legacy vest is compliant, based purely
on the reflective areas the average SARMed is, though as David said there are other parts to the standard as well, including breakaway strength
for certain applications.

And some info on the color:
This varies. There is some science, opinion, and trends on each.
Some studies indicate the florescent yellow green is more conspicuous during hours of low light, such as dusk and dawn. Yellow green is also known as a "pedestrian" color as indicated by school approach signs etc. This color is also a high contrast against traditional orange work zone devices such as traffic cones and construction signs. Conversely, orange may appear to show less dirt, and some reports indicate it fades a little less quickly. Orange is also traditionally known as "the" safety color in work zones. It has a high contrast to background foliage and trees where workers may be present. Local jurisdictions and corporate policies may require a particular color even though neither the Federal ruling nor ANSI/ISEA do not. Whichever color you choose, evaluate your workspaces and make a decision that best provides for the safety of the worker.
http://198.66.168.26/Products/SafetyApparel/Vests_FAQs.htm

We should note that CAPR 62-1, Section 7, states:  "By October 1, 2012, all safety vests and safety apparel will be required to meet ANSI Class 2 or 3 visibility and reflectivity standards."  That is, irrespective of what are the complete ANSI Class 2 and 3 standards, our vests need only comply with Class 2 or 3 visibility and reflectivity standards.

I think you're splitting hairs too fine because the spec only talks about visibility and reflectivity of clothing.

[SarDragon]

Agreed. The specification deals with visibility and reflectivity. It doesn't mention what the ultimate use of the clothing is, whether simple vest, shirt, or other "see me" gear. You have to have X amount of reflective material on Y amount of contrasting material to meet either class rating. There is no "only". There's nothing else to the specs.

More here. The actual spec is not downloadable, but may be ordered for a cost.

[Eclipse]

The actual spec is not downloadable, but may be ordered for a cost.

Which, in itself, is ridiculous.  Specifications like this should be public domain.

[davidsinn]

The actual spec is not downloadable, but may be ordered for a cost.

Which, in itself, is ridiculous.  Specifications like this should be public domain.

I can see both sides of the argument. ANSI has to pay for the development of the specs somehow but any spec that is codified into law should be freely available to anyone.

[SarDragon]

The actual spec is not downloadable, but may be ordered for a cost.

Which, in itself, is ridiculous.  Specifications like this should be public domain.

The American National Standards Institute (ANSI) is a private non-profit organization that oversees the development of voluntary consensus standards for products, services, processes, systems, and personnel in the United States. As such, they are under no obligation to provide free printed material.

FWIW, there is a significant number of FAA pubs that are only available for a fee.