Requirements to be a CAP Pilot

[CadetProgramGuy]

Those requirements are specifically for missions where transportation of non-CAP members is envisioned (i.e., Counterdrug Transportation Missions).

However, there are some CD missions that are essentially high-bird missions in which case regular CAP transport pilots can fly them just as they could fly a plane transportation sortie related to a CD mission. 

Incidentally SARDragon, the citation wasn't in his post at the time I asked for it.  He added it later.

Ummm, No

You have to be cleared for Counterdrug to do anything counterdrug.

[RiverAux]

Thats a given. 

[SJFedor]

River Aux is correct to ask that question.  I am the CDO for CAWG and know of no such requirement.  Perhaps it is true in Tennessee.

It's true everywhere as that's what the national reg says.  I'm not sure why, but my guess is it has something to do with the CAP waiver from the FAA for compensated flights.

Edit:

CAP REGULATION 60-6

3-2. Flight Crew Qualifications.

...

a. Pilot-In-Command (PIC).

...

3) Counterdrug Transportation Missions. Counterdrug transportation missions require an FAA Commercial
Pilot Certificate with a current instrument rating and at least a current Second-Class Medical.

RiverAux, bosshawk, this was where I was getting that info from. Plus, our FAA exemtion doesn't cover CD operations, only SARLOC, so common sense would dictate that if we're transporting non-CAP toys or people, we're not doing so as a Part 91 Corporate operation, and the operation would require a Commercial ticket.

However, there are some CD missions that are essentially high-bird missions in which case regular CAP transport pilots can fly them just as they could fly a plane transportation sortie related to a CD mission. 

That depends. Is the repeater you have in the back CAP owned or DEA/DHS/Someone else owned? If it is, the driver needs to be commercially rated.

[RiverAux]

Makes no difference.  That is not a transportation mission.  High bird missions can be flown by transportation pilots, assuming they have a CD qualification.  There is nothing preventing that. 

[SJFedor]

Makes no difference.  That is not a transportation mission.  High bird missions can be flown by transportation pilots, assuming they have a CD qualification.  There is nothing preventing that. 

Actually, it really does. I would encourage you to read 60-1, the FARs, and moreso, the language in our FAR exemptions.

Take a look on attachment 2, page 37 of CAPR 60-1. Aerial Work operations is what a highbird sortie is. If we're carrying passengers or non-CAP property (a DEA repeater would count), and the mission is being reimbursed (as the CD missions are, because the supported agency is paying for it) you're required to hold a commercial certificate, because what you are doing is a commercial operation under FAR 119.1

And, in fact, if you want to REALLY delve into it, any high bird work, whether it's during a SAREX, CD operations, or whatever, can only be done by private pilots if "Note 1: Pilot may not pay less than the pro rata share of the operating expenses, provided the expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees OR pilot may not log flight time."

However, most people don't like that inconvienant fact and choose to ignore it. Until the FAA starts asking questions.

[RiverAux]

Well, I'm a little surprised that people can't tell the difference between a Communications Support mission (i.e., highbird)(see CAPR 60-6 3.3(g) and a Transportation Mission 3.3k

Comm Support:

g. Communications Support – usually flown in remote locations to provide an aerial communications relay platform and/or in support of over-water operations where normal communications may be a problem.

I'm not going to quote the multi-paragraphs on Transportation Missions, but they are specifically for transport of people and equipment. 

High bird missions can either be manual radio relay or through a repeater.  If you're using an onboard repeater, you're obviously providing Comm Support.  If you're carrying a non-CAP repeater for another agency involved in CD from point A to B, then the Transportation Mission rules apply. 

By the way, the CD Transportation rules are pretty similar to the general rules for Transportation that you will find in 60-1 Attachment 2 which basically say that if you're doing aerial work (taking off from point a and returning to point a while doing some work-- i.e., high bird) while transportation is defined as going from point a to point b for the purpose of movement. 

Also note that 60-3 2.3 o allows for use of Transportation Mission Pilots on high bird missions and that so long as the equipment is owned by CAP do not need a Commercial license to transport it from a to b

[Flying Pig]

What I think is interesting is that law enforcement pilots aren't required to have Commercial Pilots licenses, but in order for CAP to fly a cop around, we have to have one.  Hmmmmmm.

[RiverAux]

Keep in mind that CAP is operating as a private group in this case while you're probably falling under the various exemptions for public service aircraft when you've got your cop earphones on. 

[Flying Pig]

Yeah, I know the reason why.....just interesting.  Although....Im sure 99% of them have their Commercial as a requirement of their insurance and just over all training requirements.

[bosshawk]

As a result of this discussion, I have gone back and reviewed the reg: 60-6.  It is our interpretation that a CD Transportation Mission involves picking up Charlie LE officer at point A and hauling him/her to point B and dropping them off.  Air taxi, if you will.  That certainly requires that the pilot have a Commercial license with Class II medical in force.  In a program that flew about 2300 hours last fiscal year, we did none of those in CAWG.  Those missions are considered competition with charter outfits and we try to stay away from them.  I happen to have a ton of pilots with Commercial licenses, so it really is no issue for me.

Taking a LE officer on a marijuana recon mission is not a Transportation Mission: it is Marijuana Recon.  Picking up a repeater and flying hi-bird is not a Transportation Mission, it is LE Support. 

Lets not make this any more complicated than it is.

[simon]

BTW, some of you may recall one of my concerns that I was short on the PIC requirements to fly a corporate aircraft.

I just read the CAP regulations, specifically, CAPR 60-1:

http://level2.cap.gov/documents/u_082503073227.pdf

Under chapter 3-3, "Pilot Qualifications and Requirements", (a) Single Engine, (3) high performance (e.g. the 182 or 206), the pilot must have:

i) 100 hours PIC (I have 75) or
ii) Complete a flight transition program. This was interesting to me. Here's what it entails:

1) A minimum of 25 takeoffs and landings which must include 10 takeoffs and landings in a crosswind of 5 knots or greater.
2) Five no-flap landings.
3) A minimum of 5 short field/soft field takeoffs and landing.
4) A minimum of 5 simulated engine failures to a full stop landing at an airport runway.

and

5) Satisfactory completion of a CAPF 5 proficiency check administered by a CAP check pilot who has not conducted the transition training.
6) High performance endorsement.

I have 75 hours PIC, or which 15 hours is in a Bonanza (V-Tail P35 with an upgraded 310hp engine) which is where I earned my high performance endorsement.

Am I reading this correctly in that if I complete the CAP flight transition program above, that I could meet the CAP Pilot requirements?

What do all the pilots out there think of the idea of a someone with my limited experience taking this option? I am aware that there's a difference between "minimum" and "safe".

Alternatively, I could simply postpone joining the Civil Air Patrol and steadily rack up another 25 hours PIC on my own. The club where I rent the Bonanza has a 182 but no 206 that the Reid-Hillview squadron flies.

[Frenchie]

I think your question would be best answered by the Stan/Eval officer in whatever squadron you decide to join.

Remember that the squadron may have their own standards that exceed CAP requirements under 60-1.  If you come to the squadron as a 100 hr pilot with a HP endorsement, the Stan/Eval officer may want you to do the transistion training anyway.

[simon]

Sure. I am going to the squadron meeting tonight and will get their views on this.

[simon]

I was in a good squadron meeting down at Reid-Hillview tonight. A chat with the commander gave me a better perspective on what leads to a good CAP pilot. An in-person discussion was far more useful than any set of CAP regulations or minimums. I think now that my enthusiasm as a new pilot may have been a bit over the top.

Given my experience (Or lack thereof), qualifying first as a scanner, then as an observer, then finally as a pilot seems like a logical progression. Spending some time in the aircraft where you are not directly responsible for the occupants makes sense. Besides, by that stage, I'd probably have accumulated enough PIC hours outside of CAP to qualify via the normal procedures.

After all, one shouldn't be in a hurry to fly an unfamiliar aircraft with precious cargo.

[Frenchie]

There's no reason why you can't also start working on getting checked out in the CAP aircraft and fly it on your own dime.  Until you get checked out, you may be able to fly with others just for proficiency out to grab a hamburger on the weekend or just boring holes in the sky.