Requirements to be a CAP Pilot

[simon]

I am interested in a CAP pilot's opinion about the likely progression and timeframe that I would be following to become a CAP pilot.

My principal area of interest is to fly Search and Rescue missions, although I would still be happy to fly as a pilot on other missions.

Re my background, I am a new pilot, so I am wondering with the minimum experience requirements whether SAR is 1 year, 2 years off etc. I learnt to fly last year out of Palo Alto, CA, in a Citabria. Since then I have acquired my complex and high performance endorsements and I have been flying an Arrow, V-Tail Bonanza, Super Decathlon (For aerobatics) and I still have a soft spot for the Citabria. I have done a little Sierra flying as well. South Lake Tahoe etc. I have 160TT and 80PIC and appreciate that in pilot experience terms I really am in the low time category.

I went to a CAP meeting at Palo Alto a couple of weeks ago (A composite group there with a 182) and also went to a Reid-Hillview meeting (Seniors group with a 206) and found everybody very welcoming.

What is the likely progression for me to get into SAR? Is it:

1) Get a few more PIC hours to get me to 100, sit the tests, do a checkout and be entitled to fly the aircraft as a transport pilot.
2) Fly for another year, become a) An observer, then b) A scanner, learn about SAR as I go, then become qualified as a mission pilot once I get to 175 hours PIC. At that point I can do ELT missions.
3) Keep going, study the pilot requirements for SAR, sit the tests, get to 200 PIC at which point I am qualified on paper to be a SAR pilot.

This is my understanding of the minimums as per the CAP regulations. I appreciate that I could actually require more time and training to be qualified in a practical sense. I am just trying to put a timeline on where I will be and when so I can start planning to fly non CAP 182's/206's with instructors to develop a level of competancy before getting into corporate planes. I don't have Cessna time since I'm flying mainly ragwings, Pipers and the Beech.

Could a low time pilot myself who flies weekly expect to spend around 2 years to get to SAR mission pilot level?

[Hammerhead]

I believe the 1 to 2 year estimate is about right.  Again it depends on how quickly you can get to the minimum PIC time.  I would get some instruction from one of the Mission Pilot Check Pilots and take it from there.  I have seen retired airline pilots take two years to become Mission Pilots. 

[davedove]

2) Fly for another year, become a) An observer, then b) A scanner, learn about SAR as I go, then become qualified as a mission pilot once I get to 175 hours PIC. At that point I can do ELT missions.

I don't know the rest, as I'm not aircrew, but Mission Scanner is the first step here.  After that, you can go straight to Mission Pilot, you don't have to do Mission Observer to be a pilot, although it certainly doesn't hurt if you want to do that.

[RiverAux]

Normally, even if you had all the PIC you needed, it takes about a year to get to mission pilot status though this can vary depending on how many missions are available for you to fly on.  However, it sounds as if you've got a lot of flying to do to get up to that level.  But, don't worry about it.  We need good qualified scanners and observers almost as much as pilots, so you should keep busy. 

[jayleswo]

What is the likely progression for me to get into SAR? Is it:

1) Get a few more PIC hours to get me to 100, sit the tests, do a checkout and be entitled to fly the aircraft as a transport pilot.
2) Fly for another year, become a) An observer, then b) A scanner, learn about SAR as I go, then become qualified as a mission pilot once I get to 175 hours PIC. At that point I can do ELT missions.
3) Keep going, study the pilot requirements for SAR, sit the tests, get to 200 PIC at which point I am qualified on paper to be a SAR pilot.

Could a low time pilot myself who flies weekly expect to spend around 2 years to get to SAR mission pilot level?

Hello Simon. I used to be a member of SQ10 in Palo Alto and it is a very good unit.  I am now with SQ14 in Sacramento. I read through your list and it looks pretty good. I just had a few observations. First, concerning #2, you fly most any kind of mission (not just ELT) once you become a Trainee Mission Pilot as long as you have a Qualified mentor Mission Pilot along with you.

Second, continuing on to Observer before Mission Pilot is not a bad thing, especially if you remain short of the 175 hours PIC needed to begin training as a Mission Pilot. Knowing how to work the CAP radio and DF gear plus the added knowledge and skills of a qualified Observer will help you as a Mission Pilot.

Lastly, I would suggest you use more of a progress based approach rather than try to guess at timeframes. Getting to 175 hours PIC from 80 could take you years if you don't fly much or considerably less than that if you fly a lot. Once you get to that 175 hours and can fly as PIC you can build hours very quickly. It depends on the level of personal initiative you have, your availability and flexibility to fly and take missions. In my case (low availability and low flight time) it took 8 years to get to qualified Mission Pilot. I am sure most people could do better than that :-)

-- John

[ray]

I am interested in a CAP pilot's opinion about the likely progression and timeframe that I would be following to become a CAP pilot.

My principal area of interest is to fly Search and Rescue missions, although I would still be happy to fly as a pilot on other missions.

Simon - I'm a member of the Palo Alto squadron, sorry I didn't get a chance to meet you when you visited.  Two years is probably a reasonable expectation, but Mission Pilot training is very variable depending on how you prioritize it.  If you put a lot of time into and take advantage of all the training opportunities you can easily become a Mission Pilot within one year - but for most people it's an easy thing to keep putting off and it can take a few years to finish.

I also wanted to say that you shouldn't worry too much about your hours or how long it will take to become a Mission Pilot.  Being an Observer is (in my opinion) as rewarding if not more so than being the pilot.  With a well coordinated crew, the observer is handling most of the SAR activities and the pilot is managing the aircraft - you don't at all feel like you're just along for the ride.  I am one of those people that kept putting off finishing my mission pilot certification, but one of the reasons I wasn't in a big rush was because I was having so much fun as an observer.

Feel free to PM or e-mail me (raywoo@gmail.com) if you have any questions.

[Frenchie]

The more time you spend in CAP aircraft in any capacity, the better prepared you're going to be when you become a mission pilot.

You can do the aircraft checkout (form 5) as soon as you've completed level one and GES.  This enables you to fly CAP aircraft on your own dime for proficiency.  The 182 and 206 are going to require a HP endorsement if you don't already have one and a much more extensive checkout than the 172.

I would encourage you to get transport mission pilot when you're eligible, because depending on your squadron, you may be able to fly quite a few transport missions, which will increase your PIC time.

[CadetProgramGuy]

Not having the reg's in front of me, lets not forget about Transport Pilot.

[simon]

Thanks everyone for your input. This was exactly the kind of response for which I was hoping.

The end comments about transport pilot were interesting. I was conscious of the significant minimum hours between transport pilot and mission pilot - effectively about a year of weekly flying. Can anybody tell me about the role of a transport pilot? I was under the impression that it is merely delivering an aircraft from point A to point B so that it can then be used on a mission. Does one then just hang around at the airport until the mission is complete, then ferry it back? (Effectively a 'ferry' pilot). Can you be stuck out at a location for more than a day in this capacity if the plane is required for longer periods? What is the typical role of a transport pilot? It didn't sound particularly interesting but perhaps someone can enlighten me. All these questions I suppose I could ask at the meetings but the forum seems like a good place to gather perspective from different squadrons.

I am all for the alternate roles in the aircraft - Observer, Scanner. In my view, having the pilot experience the other positions in the aircraft can only give them a better understanding of what the others need (Mainly the scanner of course).

And cheers to the Palo Alto and Reid-Hillview squadrons. Now I know I being watched! :-)

Simon

[CadetProgramGuy]

Transport mission pilots do the "grunt" work of the missions.  In the pre-mission set up you can deliver training elt's to airports, deliver crews to meet up with other crews, fly "high-bird".

Thats just a few of the things I can think of for mission work.  Basically here is what you can't do:

Fly Grid Searches, fly Counter Drug.

[SJFedor]

As a TMP, it all depends on what ratings you've got. Since you're obviously a private pilot (not enough hours for commercial) you're pretty limited. You can deliver CAP aircraft, personnel, and property from A to B, fly "high bird" sorties either with an airmobile repeater in the back, or your MO acting as a relay, like someone else said, deliver CAP property (targets, practice beacons) to areas that they'll be set up, etc. What you can't do is fly non-CAP passengers (requires a commercial ticket), transport non CAP property (blood products, etc, also requires a commercial ticket) or fly sorties that would require a mission pilot (ELT searches, grid searches, route searches, etc)

Being a counterdrug transport mission pilot requires you to have a commercial ticket as well.

Learn everything you can. Become a good scanner, then move up and become a very good MO. The best MPs are ones with extensive MO experience, because learning the panels, how to operate the equipment, and everything else can be tough to remember. Doing that on top of operating the aircraft (when you have inexperienced MO trainees, etc) is even tougher, so you should have a very firm handle on what goes on in the right seat. Remember, as an MP, you're also a teacher to any other aircrew member trainees that get into your plane. If they don't know it/can't perform it, it's your responsibility to make sure it gets done.

And if you're really interested, I would highly encourage you to look at NESA's Mission Aircrew School (*shameless plug*). They're not taking any more applications for this year's session right now, but for the 09 class, I would highly recommend it, whether you're able to go as an MP candidate (w/ the 175 PIC) or an MO candidiate. The training and experience is top notch, and you'll leave the school with a thorough understanding of how it all works, and moreso, be prepared to bring that knowledge and experience back to your home wing and empart it on others.

http://ngsar.homestead.com/home.html

Welcome!!

[ray]

The end comments about transport pilot were interesting. I was conscious of the significant minimum hours between transport pilot and mission pilot - effectively about a year of weekly flying. Can anybody tell me about the role of a transport pilot? I was under the impression that it is merely delivering an aircraft from point A to point B so that it can then be used on a mission. Does one then just hang around at the airport until the mission is complete, then ferry it back? (Effectively a 'ferry' pilot). Can you be stuck out at a location for more than a day in this capacity if the plane is required for longer periods? What is the typical role of a transport pilot? It didn't sound particularly interesting but perhaps someone can enlighten me. All these questions I suppose I could ask at the meetings but the forum seems like a good place to gather perspective from different squadrons.

Being a TMP isn't really an end unto itself, but it's something that can allow you to get some funded flying and occasionally some interesting missions come up for TMPs.  The most common TMP flights I've seen has been flying to and from search bases.  This would either be just switching seats with the SAR Mission Pilot for the transport portion of the flight, or you may be flying someplace to meet up with the rest of your crew.  Either way, you won't be just delivering a plane and then just sitting around doing nothing.

In the year between when I became a TMP and when I finally got around to finishing my SAR MP, I was actually able to get a fair number of hours as a TMP (around 15).  Among these was a dog transport mission to pick up and deliver a search dog and handler to look for a missing child.  As Steven mentioned, as a private pilot you won't be reimbursed for this kind of mission - but they can still be very rewarding to fly.

- Ray

[Frenchie]

The biggest reason why you would want to get TMP is it's extremely easy to get as the requirements are little more than a bit of paperwork over and above the form 5.

Just having TMP makes you eligible to receive 1 hour of paid proficiency flying if you attend PCT.  You can use that 1 hour to get your form 5, which means your subsequent form 5 rides are free.

[RiverAux]

Being a counterdrug transport mission pilot requires you to have a commercial ticket as well.

Where is that at?

[bosshawk]

River Aux is correct to ask that question.  I am the CDO for CAWG and know of no such requirement.  Perhaps it is true in Tennessee.

[Frenchie]

River Aux is correct to ask that question.  I am the CDO for CAWG and know of no such requirement.  Perhaps it is true in Tennessee.

It's true everywhere as that's what the national reg says.  I'm not sure why, but my guess is it has something to do with the CAP waiver from the FAA for compensated flights.

Edit:

CAP REGULATION 60-6

3-2. Flight Crew Qualifications.

...

a. Pilot-In-Command (PIC).

...

3) Counterdrug Transportation Missions. Counterdrug transportation missions require an FAA Commercial
Pilot Certificate with a current instrument rating and at least a current Second-Class Medical.

[RiverAux]

Please provide the citation 

[SarDragon]

He just did.

Also, from 3.3.k.7) Every transportation flight carrying non-CAP passengers must be piloted by an FAA-certified Commercial Pilot rating with an Instrument rating and at least a second-class medical certificate.

[RiverAux]

Those requirements are specifically for missions where transportation of non-CAP members is envisioned (i.e., Counterdrug Transportation Missions).

However, there are some CD missions that are essentially high-bird missions in which case regular CAP transport pilots can fly them just as they could fly a plane transportation sortie related to a CD mission. 

Incidentally SARDragon, the citation wasn't in his post at the time I asked for it.  He added it later.

[flynd94]

Simon,

I will vouch for both Palo Alto and Reid-Hillview.  I am a little partial to PAO.  I was a member of CA214 for the last 5 years.  They are an extremely busy ES squadron.  We had the best trained pilots and ground folks (I know, I was the ES officer/mentor pilot/Check Pilot).

My advice is keep an open mind, take your time and, ignore the BS.  Remember, that the action is at the squadron level.  You have to develop a filter for what CAP/HQ/wing HQ sends down the pipe.  You won't go wrong at either squadron (these are the only 2 I would recommend in the group).

Try to get your training locally, its much better than what you can get at NESA.  Now, Steven don't get too upset.  I am a NESA grad (03' GSAR/AGSAR and a Distinguished Grad) but, unfortunately I haven't had success dealing with folks who go to the 7 day wonder course.  JMHO.

[CadetProgramGuy]

Those requirements are specifically for missions where transportation of non-CAP members is envisioned (i.e., Counterdrug Transportation Missions).

However, there are some CD missions that are essentially high-bird missions in which case regular CAP transport pilots can fly them just as they could fly a plane transportation sortie related to a CD mission. 

Incidentally SARDragon, the citation wasn't in his post at the time I asked for it.  He added it later.

Ummm, No

You have to be cleared for Counterdrug to do anything counterdrug.

[RiverAux]

Thats a given. 

[SJFedor]

River Aux is correct to ask that question.  I am the CDO for CAWG and know of no such requirement.  Perhaps it is true in Tennessee.

It's true everywhere as that's what the national reg says.  I'm not sure why, but my guess is it has something to do with the CAP waiver from the FAA for compensated flights.

Edit:

CAP REGULATION 60-6

3-2. Flight Crew Qualifications.

...

a. Pilot-In-Command (PIC).

...

3) Counterdrug Transportation Missions. Counterdrug transportation missions require an FAA Commercial
Pilot Certificate with a current instrument rating and at least a current Second-Class Medical.

RiverAux, bosshawk, this was where I was getting that info from. Plus, our FAA exemtion doesn't cover CD operations, only SARLOC, so common sense would dictate that if we're transporting non-CAP toys or people, we're not doing so as a Part 91 Corporate operation, and the operation would require a Commercial ticket.

However, there are some CD missions that are essentially high-bird missions in which case regular CAP transport pilots can fly them just as they could fly a plane transportation sortie related to a CD mission. 

That depends. Is the repeater you have in the back CAP owned or DEA/DHS/Someone else owned? If it is, the driver needs to be commercially rated.

[RiverAux]

Makes no difference.  That is not a transportation mission.  High bird missions can be flown by transportation pilots, assuming they have a CD qualification.  There is nothing preventing that. 

[SJFedor]

Makes no difference.  That is not a transportation mission.  High bird missions can be flown by transportation pilots, assuming they have a CD qualification.  There is nothing preventing that. 

Actually, it really does. I would encourage you to read 60-1, the FARs, and moreso, the language in our FAR exemptions.

Take a look on attachment 2, page 37 of CAPR 60-1. Aerial Work operations is what a highbird sortie is. If we're carrying passengers or non-CAP property (a DEA repeater would count), and the mission is being reimbursed (as the CD missions are, because the supported agency is paying for it) you're required to hold a commercial certificate, because what you are doing is a commercial operation under FAR 119.1

And, in fact, if you want to REALLY delve into it, any high bird work, whether it's during a SAREX, CD operations, or whatever, can only be done by private pilots if "Note 1: Pilot may not pay less than the pro rata share of the operating expenses, provided the expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees OR pilot may not log flight time."

However, most people don't like that inconvienant fact and choose to ignore it. Until the FAA starts asking questions.

[RiverAux]

Well, I'm a little surprised that people can't tell the difference between a Communications Support mission (i.e., highbird)(see CAPR 60-6 3.3(g) and a Transportation Mission 3.3k

Comm Support:

g. Communications Support – usually flown in remote locations to provide an aerial communications relay platform and/or in support of over-water operations where normal communications may be a problem.

I'm not going to quote the multi-paragraphs on Transportation Missions, but they are specifically for transport of people and equipment. 

High bird missions can either be manual radio relay or through a repeater.  If you're using an onboard repeater, you're obviously providing Comm Support.  If you're carrying a non-CAP repeater for another agency involved in CD from point A to B, then the Transportation Mission rules apply. 

By the way, the CD Transportation rules are pretty similar to the general rules for Transportation that you will find in 60-1 Attachment 2 which basically say that if you're doing aerial work (taking off from point a and returning to point a while doing some work-- i.e., high bird) while transportation is defined as going from point a to point b for the purpose of movement. 

Also note that 60-3 2.3 o allows for use of Transportation Mission Pilots on high bird missions and that so long as the equipment is owned by CAP do not need a Commercial license to transport it from a to b

[Flying Pig]

What I think is interesting is that law enforcement pilots aren't required to have Commercial Pilots licenses, but in order for CAP to fly a cop around, we have to have one.  Hmmmmmm.

[RiverAux]

Keep in mind that CAP is operating as a private group in this case while you're probably falling under the various exemptions for public service aircraft when you've got your cop earphones on. 

[Flying Pig]

Yeah, I know the reason why.....just interesting.  Although....Im sure 99% of them have their Commercial as a requirement of their insurance and just over all training requirements.

[bosshawk]

As a result of this discussion, I have gone back and reviewed the reg: 60-6.  It is our interpretation that a CD Transportation Mission involves picking up Charlie LE officer at point A and hauling him/her to point B and dropping them off.  Air taxi, if you will.  That certainly requires that the pilot have a Commercial license with Class II medical in force.  In a program that flew about 2300 hours last fiscal year, we did none of those in CAWG.  Those missions are considered competition with charter outfits and we try to stay away from them.  I happen to have a ton of pilots with Commercial licenses, so it really is no issue for me.

Taking a LE officer on a marijuana recon mission is not a Transportation Mission: it is Marijuana Recon.  Picking up a repeater and flying hi-bird is not a Transportation Mission, it is LE Support. 

Lets not make this any more complicated than it is.

[simon]

BTW, some of you may recall one of my concerns that I was short on the PIC requirements to fly a corporate aircraft.

I just read the CAP regulations, specifically, CAPR 60-1:

http://level2.cap.gov/documents/u_082503073227.pdf

Under chapter 3-3, "Pilot Qualifications and Requirements", (a) Single Engine, (3) high performance (e.g. the 182 or 206), the pilot must have:

i) 100 hours PIC (I have 75) or
ii) Complete a flight transition program. This was interesting to me. Here's what it entails:

1) A minimum of 25 takeoffs and landings which must include 10 takeoffs and landings in a crosswind of 5 knots or greater.
2) Five no-flap landings.
3) A minimum of 5 short field/soft field takeoffs and landing.
4) A minimum of 5 simulated engine failures to a full stop landing at an airport runway.

and

5) Satisfactory completion of a CAPF 5 proficiency check administered by a CAP check pilot who has not conducted the transition training.
6) High performance endorsement.

I have 75 hours PIC, or which 15 hours is in a Bonanza (V-Tail P35 with an upgraded 310hp engine) which is where I earned my high performance endorsement.

Am I reading this correctly in that if I complete the CAP flight transition program above, that I could meet the CAP Pilot requirements?

What do all the pilots out there think of the idea of a someone with my limited experience taking this option? I am aware that there's a difference between "minimum" and "safe".

Alternatively, I could simply postpone joining the Civil Air Patrol and steadily rack up another 25 hours PIC on my own. The club where I rent the Bonanza has a 182 but no 206 that the Reid-Hillview squadron flies.

[Frenchie]

I think your question would be best answered by the Stan/Eval officer in whatever squadron you decide to join.

Remember that the squadron may have their own standards that exceed CAP requirements under 60-1.  If you come to the squadron as a 100 hr pilot with a HP endorsement, the Stan/Eval officer may want you to do the transistion training anyway.

[simon]

Sure. I am going to the squadron meeting tonight and will get their views on this.

[simon]

I was in a good squadron meeting down at Reid-Hillview tonight. A chat with the commander gave me a better perspective on what leads to a good CAP pilot. An in-person discussion was far more useful than any set of CAP regulations or minimums. I think now that my enthusiasm as a new pilot may have been a bit over the top.

Given my experience (Or lack thereof), qualifying first as a scanner, then as an observer, then finally as a pilot seems like a logical progression. Spending some time in the aircraft where you are not directly responsible for the occupants makes sense. Besides, by that stage, I'd probably have accumulated enough PIC hours outside of CAP to qualify via the normal procedures.

After all, one shouldn't be in a hurry to fly an unfamiliar aircraft with precious cargo.

[Frenchie]

There's no reason why you can't also start working on getting checked out in the CAP aircraft and fly it on your own dime.  Until you get checked out, you may be able to fly with others just for proficiency out to grab a hamburger on the weekend or just boring holes in the sky.