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CFI to Captain

Started by Flying Pig, March 29, 2008, 05:14:09 PM

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Flying Pig

I have a senior member who is my Deputy for Cadets.  He is a CFI-I SEL MEL and is a working CFI at a local 141 flight school.  He has his Form 5 done, is CD qual'd and is an O-ride pilot.  He has been in CAP about 10 years and is a former Mitchell cadet also.  He is working on his Form 91.

He was denied promotion to Capt and was told that as soon as he attends the check pilot course he will be promoted.   Nothing in the regs says anything about the check pilot course as a requirement that I can find. 

mikeylikey

....and?  Being a Mitchell Cadet he already got a break on promotions I am sure?  Did he just get his CFI, and now he wants to be made a CAPT? 

Sorry.....I can't help you.  Perhaps he can promote the same way most other CAP members do, serve TIG, and finish PRO DEV.

Is he a 1st LT?  If so, 18 months is not that long to wait. 

Also, The group or wing commander can make any rule they want about approving special promotions.  I think it may a "local" issue.  I never heard about having to attend the check pilot course before.

This is just one more guy that had more money than others and was able to "buy" his CAPT.  (you know that is what it is......pilots have the $$ to spend on flight training, and are awarded for it).  It is an unfair system (special promotions in CAP).

What's up monkeys?

IceNine

Quote from: mikeylikey on March 29, 2008, 06:03:57 PM
....and?  Being a Mitchell Cadet he already got a break on promotions I am sure?  Did he just get his CFI, and now he wants to be made a CAPT? 

Sorry.....I can't help you.  Perhaps he can promote the same way most other CAP members do, serve TIG, and finish PRO DEV.

Is he a 1st LT?  If so, 18 months is not that long to wait. 

Also, The group or wing commander can make any rule they want about approving special promotions.  I think it may a "local" issue.  I never heard about having to attend the check pilot course before.

This is just one more guy that had more money than others and was able to "buy" his CAPT.  (you know that is what it is......pilots have the $$ to spend on flight training, and are awarded for it).  It is an unfair system (special promotions in CAP).



Did you read his post before your started your pretty little rant?

10 years of service, and actively flying as a CD and Orientation Pilot, Give him the promotion.  If he weren't using his skill set to support our mission then no way would I give him the promotion. 

It's just like any other professional asking for the promotion that the regulations says they can have. 

The only reason I can see for a denial under these circumstances is that the wing is lacking Check pilots and this is there way of persuading people to take that leap
"All of the true things that I am about to tell you are shameless lies"

Book of Bokonon
Chapter 4

flyguy06

Mikey while I agree with you that this guy shoukld work his way up like everyone else( I was a formwer cadet myself) I have to take issue with the statement that pilots have a lot of money. That is just not true.

Most young people trying to get into the airlines have to take out massive sallie mae loans to fund our flight training and they will be working for years to rerpay the loans back. I dont even want to think about the amount of money Ihave spent on flight training. But I am currently in training to fly jets and everytime I step into the sim, its worth it.

But yes, I agree that there is no national requirement to go to check pilot school to be a Capt. You only need to be a CFI. But it may be a local thing.

Flying Pig

  I am not talking about whether anyone agrees with it.  Thats why we have policy to set the standard and not have "local" requirements.  CAP has set the precedent nation wide.  I know several CFI's who have come in and were awarded Capt right off.  Here we have a member who is dedicated and only wants what is due.  In fact, he meets the requirement in two areas.  CFI and CFI-I.  By your example, I guess all of the CAP lawyers, MD's and CHaplains all "bought" their promotions as well.  Not to mention the military officers who "bought" Capt or Major based on their training.


FAA/FCC Rating                             Grade
Pilots
Private                                         2d Lt
Instrument or Commercial           1st Lt
CFI/CFII or ATP                            Capt
Maintenance
A or P Mechanic                           2d Lt
A&P Mechanic                              1st Lt
A&P Mechanic
w/Inspection Authorization           Capt
 
Communicators
General Radiotelephone
Operators License                      1st Lt

Ground Instructors
Basic Instructor                         2d Lt
Advanced Instructor                  1st Lt
Instrument Instructor               Capt


RiverAux

I don't like our special promotions system one bit, but seeing as how it is the regulation I would give it to him.

Of course even since he is apparently still a 1st Lt after 10 years, he obviously isn't a rank hog.  Heck, with very little application he could have been a Major and possibly a Lt. Col. by now if he had wanted. 

mikeylikey

^ No one is "entitled" to automatic special promotion.  Flying Pig......you have your answer already, it was denied until your Officer goes to the check pilot course.  If it was denied at Group, then it is a group requirement, if it was denied at Wing, then it is a Wing Requirement you may not be aware of.

Special promotions take away from the value of "regular members".  You are basically saying "this guy is pilot, so he is a CAPT automatically, sorry 2nd Lt Scruffy, your not valuable enough to our organization, and we will hold you back as long as possible from promoting". 

I know military Officers that promoted through the CAP ranks like a regular member would, even though they could have come in as a CAPT or MAJOR.  Myself being one of them.  Achievements outside of CAP, are just that.  Why is one persons medical degree better than another persons marketing degree?  The doctor sure as hell can't practice medicine in CAP. 

The whole system sucks and is unfair to those that serve TIG and actually earn their promotions the way that was intended.  If we really need to waive advanced promotions in front of people to join CAP, then our organization sucks more than is generally known (in a failure type of way).

Sorry for hijacking, this is one area I have deep feelings about, and hope to see changed.   :-* 

What's up monkeys?

flyguy06

This is an aviation organization. I think people with aviation experiences should be recognized accordingly. Its not that the non pilot is less important. In fact, who really cares. They arent with holding pay from the non pilot. I could be a 2nd Lt and still be the top dog in my squadron. Its not about rank neccessarily. Its about experience.

RiverAux

We're not talking about whether there should be special promotions, we're talking about a specific case of someone being denied. 

Now, if there actually is a written Wing supplement adding this requirement, thats okay, but you've got to remember that many CAP members are prone to accidentally making up their own "regulations" by misremembering the actual rule.  I wouldn't be surprised that someone in authority thought you actually had to be a check pilot before taking advantage of this special promotion even though it might not be written down somewhere. 

arajca

The next step would be to request a copy of the policy/reg that has the local/group/wing requirement. If it is not published, I would defintely challange it to the next higher commander.

Pylon

#10
Quote from: mikeylikey on March 29, 2008, 06:03:57 PM
Perhaps he can promote the same way most other CAP members do, serve TIG, and finish PRO DEV.

Hey Mikey, you might want to note that that's your opinion.  Per CAP Regs, receiving promotions based on criteria other than Duty Performance are just as legit and deserved.

Quote from: mikeylikey on March 29, 2008, 06:03:57 PM
Also, The group or wing commander can make any rule they want about approving special promotions.  I think it may a "local" issue.

No, they can't.

I don't think CAPR 35-5 can make it any more clear than putting it right in Section A, Paragraph 1:

QuoteSECTION A - GENERAL PROVISIONS 
1. General.  Criteria for promotion of CAP senior members will be applied uniformly throughout Civil Air Patrol.  CAP  unit supplements to this regulation in the form of publications or oral instructions that change the basic policies, criteria,  procedures, and practices prescribed herein are prohibited. 


Quote from: mikeylikey on March 29, 2008, 06:03:57 PM
This is just one more guy that had more money than others and was able to "buy" his CAPT.  (you know that is what it is......pilots have the $$ to spend on flight training, and are awarded for it).  It is an unfair system (special promotions in CAP).

That's a terrible attitude, Mikey.  Nobody "bought" a promotion.  Do officers who join the Army coming up through OCS "buy" their commission by paying for college out of pocket?   Do legal officers "buy" their promotion to Capt by footing the bill for law school?    CAP offers CFI's advanced rank because we need people with their specific skill set... a skill set that would cost CAP and CAP members millions of dollars a year if we had to pay for it all.  Since they contribute that higher-level skills set to the organization - skills that most members can't contribute - we recognize them with higher-level grade/rank.  Very simple.  And it's completely legit, not a free pass, under our current system.

Your "opinion" and vehement hate for people who don't get rank through duty performance promotions is not gospel, nor regulation.
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

ßτε

CAPR 35-5
Quote
21. Eligibility Requirements.
a. Be at least 21 years of age.
b. Be a high school graduate (or educational equivalent).
c. Complete Level I of the Senior Member Professional Development Program. Upon completion of Level I training, members are encouraged to enter an appropriate functional specialty track, but Level II training is not mandatory for promotion under this section. (It should be noted, however, that members promoted under these provisions will not be eligible for promotion above the grade of captain until they have achieved the appropriate skill level.)
d. Complete Cadet Protection Program Training (CPPT).
e. The member must also be certified by the unit commander as contributing his or her special skills to the mission of CAP and performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion to the grade recommended.
f. Be recommended by immediate superior and unit commander.
g. After initial appointment, members may advance to the grades authorized for higher mission related skills as higher ratings are obtained without reference to time-in-grade upon recommendation by the unit commander.

I think what may be happening is that Group is interpreting paragraph 21e as requiring special skills as a CFI to be used in CAP. That would usually mean as a check pilot or as an instructor pilot. As far as I know, there is no CAWG supplement clarifying this.

However, it also states that it is the Squadron commander who certifies that the skills are being used for the benefit of CAP. If you as the squadron commander have done this, I think that is enough for paragraph 21e.

If it were me in you position, I would find out at what point it was denied. Was it at the Group Personnel Officer level, or the Group Commander level? Either way, try to get a clear indication of where it specifically states that the CFI must be a check pilot.  Explain your interpretation and hopefully you can get the promotion through.


RiverAux

I think a well-meaning person could interpret that clause as you suggest.  However, I wish they would clarify that in the regulation.  It wouldn't be hard to do -- if you want to take advantage of the special promotion for pilot, they could easily specify that you have to have become a CAP Pilot, and so on. 

ßτε

I found something in CAWGM 11-1 Chapter 3 (1997):

Quote
3-6. PROMOTIONS FOR MISSION RELATED SKILLS
a. General purpose. In recognition of certain special skills and qualifications earned outside of CAP, but which are directly related to the CAP mission, certain senior members are eligible for initial appointment (after completion of Level I and CPHRT) to a grade commensurate with these skills. See CAPR 35-5, Section D, for a detailed description of requirements.

b. Mission-related skills. The special skills and qualifications along with the commensurate grade authorized are listed in Figure 3-2. The grades listed in Figure 3-2 are the maximum grades authorized by CAPR 35-5.

c. Promotion standards. A new member should not be recommended for the maximum grade unless it is clearly demonstrated that the applicable skills are being used in and for the benefit of CAP. This means, for example, that a CFI rating does not automatically qualify an individual for the grade of captain. This grade may be recommended if the individual is currently an authorized CAP check pilot or instructor pilot and is using his/her CFI rating to give check rides or instruct CAP pilots. This philosophy applies to all initial appointments made under the provisions of CAPR 35-5. All subsequent promotions must be earned according to the training requirements for duty performance promotions.

That may be where it is coming from. I don't think it is entirely consistent with current National regulations.

FW

Quote from: bte on March 30, 2008, 01:42:49 AM
I found something in CAWGM 11-1 Chapter 3 (1997):

Quote
3-6. PROMOTIONS FOR MISSION RELATED SKILLS
a. General purpose. In recognition of certain special skills and qualifications earned outside of CAP, but which are directly related to the CAP mission, certain senior members are eligible for initial appointment (after completion of Level I and CPHRT) to a grade commensurate with these skills. See CAPR 35-5, Section D, for a detailed description of requirements.

b. Mission-related skills. The special skills and qualifications along with the commensurate grade authorized are listed in Figure 3-2. The grades listed in Figure 3-2 are the maximum grades authorized by CAPR 35-5.

c. Promotion standards. A new member should not be recommended for the maximum grade unless it is clearly demonstrated that the applicable skills are being used in and for the benefit of CAP. This means, for example, that a CFI rating does not automatically qualify an individual for the grade of captain. This grade may be recommended if the individual is currently an authorized CAP check pilot or instructor pilot and is using his/her CFI rating to give check rides or instruct CAP pilots. This philosophy applies to all initial appointments made under the provisions of CAPR 35-5. All subsequent promotions must be earned according to the training requirements for duty performance promotions.

That may be where it is coming from. I don't think it is entirely consistent with current National regulations.

This is consistant with CAPR 35-5.  Remember, the criteria or standards are to be "eligible for initial appointment".  There are many subjective factors which the commander is responsible to consider before reccommending or making the promotion.

afgeo4

Quote from: mikeylikey on March 29, 2008, 06:41:38 PM
^ No one is "entitled" to automatic special promotion.  Flying Pig......you have your answer already, it was denied until your Officer goes to the check pilot course.  If it was denied at Group, then it is a group requirement, if it was denied at Wing, then it is a Wing Requirement you may not be aware of.

Special promotions take away from the value of "regular members".  You are basically saying "this guy is pilot, so he is a CAPT automatically, sorry 2nd Lt Scruffy, your not valuable enough to our organization, and we will hold you back as long as possible from promoting". 

I know military Officers that promoted through the CAP ranks like a regular member would, even though they could have come in as a CAPT or MAJOR.  Myself being one of them.  Achievements outside of CAP, are just that.  Why is one persons medical degree better than another persons marketing degree?  The doctor sure as hell can't practice medicine in CAP. 

The whole system sucks and is unfair to those that serve TIG and actually earn their promotions the way that was intended.  If we really need to waive advanced promotions in front of people to join CAP, then our organization sucks more than is generally known (in a failure type of way).

Sorry for hijacking, this is one area I have deep feelings about, and hope to see changed.   :-* 


I agree with the fact that NHQ has left room for local commanders to make this decision. However, the local commander must have some policy in place regarding this. Otherwise, this can be a purely emotional/personal decision with nothing to back the denial and can be investigated by the IG for wrongdoing.

Promotions are rewards for having done a good job and a show of belief in you and your abilities. Promotions aren't an "incentive tool". They shouldn't be used to blackmail members into doing things that HQ wants done. That is the WRONG way to go about it.

Local headquarters can deny a cadet's promotion too. Does that mean a commander should deny cadets their grade until they wash his/her car? Shine his/her boots? Pass the CAPT-116?

Different members are interested in different things. Perhaps this member doesn't want to be a Check pilot??? He shouldn't have to be one. This is a volunteer organization. However, NHQ says that someone can be promoted in recognition of aviator qualifications and I support the thought. We (and the military) promote professionals like doctors, lawyers and chaplains. As an organization, it is important that we attract experienced pilots and especially check pilots. Given that we don't pay a dime to use their services (that they could make a nice buck on in the civ world), I think we should be happy to promote them.

After all, what is the extra bar really worth? Isn't an active, experienced and  hard to find member more important than that? Just think about it.
GEORGE LURYE

LtCol Hooligan

So he has been in for 10 years.  What's holding him back from duty promotion?  Is it the evil AFIADL 13 requirement?  I do admit that I would approve the promotion for mission skills too, but I think I would talk to him about completing the normal promotion items as well.  It only makes sense for someone in that long to have done the basic professional development requirements by then.
ERIK C. LUDLOW, Lt Col, CAP
Director of IT; Director of Cadet Programs
North Dakota Wing, Civil Air Patrol
http://www.ndcap.us

Gunner C

There could also be some other unknown fator. We may not have all the facts.  He may have just plain pissed off the commander - that's a promotion killer.

GC

mikeylikey

#18
The Officer in question here received 1st Lt FEB 2007, thus only needs to wait until August 2008 to get TIG promotion to CAPTAIN?  Why the rush FlyGuy06?

flyguy06....don't be angry with me, that info came PM'ed to me.  I am in no way psychic, or have NHQ connections (or do I  :o   )
What's up monkeys?

CadetProgramGuy

Quote from: mikeylikey on March 30, 2008, 03:29:32 AM
The Officer in question here received 1st Lt FEB 2007, thus only needs to wait until August 2008 to get TIG promotion to CAPTAIN?  Why the rush FlyGuy06?

flyguy06....don't be angry with me, that info came PM'ed to me.  I am in no way psychic, or have NHQ connections (or do I  :o   )

I look at this from another perspective.  You only get to use 1 of the special promotions.

Either Mitchell to Lt -or- CFI to Capt.

Sounds like he has the Mitchell to Lt used, wait out the TIG.

LtCol Hooligan

Quote from: CadetProgramGuy on March 30, 2008, 04:47:28 AM

I look at this from another perspective.  You only get to use 1 of the special promotions.

Either Mitchell to Lt -or- CFI to Capt.

Sounds like he has the Mitchell to Lt used, wait out the TIG.
Reg please?  I had not seen that before.
ERIK C. LUDLOW, Lt Col, CAP
Director of IT; Director of Cadet Programs
North Dakota Wing, Civil Air Patrol
http://www.ndcap.us

CadetProgramGuy

#21
No reg that I know off, just my Opinion

flyguy06

Quote from: mikeylikey on March 30, 2008, 03:29:32 AM
The Officer in question here received 1st Lt FEB 2007, thus only needs to wait until August 2008 to get TIG promotion to CAPTAIN?  Why the rush FlyGuy06?

flyguy06....don't be angry with me, that info came PM'ed to me.  I am in no way psychic, or have NHQ connections (or do I  :o   )

I'm not angry with you at all. I just disagreed with you. I am a CFI also and I know I dont have a lot of money. It took hard work two overseas tours to Bosnia and Iraq to get the money to fund my flying. S

Its all good.

RiverAux

The California Wing supplement seems adequate to me in clearing up some ambiguity in the national regulation. 

LtCol Hooligan

Quote from: CadetProgramGuy on March 30, 2008, 05:20:02 AM
No reg that I know off, just my Opinion
Why do you think it should only be used once?  I mean people are always learning and growing as humans.  An example is like someone joins the darkside and is promoted to say 2d Lt by earning the Mitchell.  Then goes on to work real hard and earn a CFI or maybe even finishes a teaching grad school program several years later why shouldn't they at least have a chance to earn the next promotion using a professional appointment?  I guess I think we should reward people for hard work and not make up imaginary rules for delaying promotion.
ERIK C. LUDLOW, Lt Col, CAP
Director of IT; Director of Cadet Programs
North Dakota Wing, Civil Air Patrol
http://www.ndcap.us

FW

#25
There is no prohibition on the number of promotions for "special promotions".
You may be given an initial grade of 1st Lt because of Earhart, promoted 1 year later to CAPT for CFI, then in 6 months be promoted to Maj. for becoming a group/cc then, after a month or so, be promoted directly to COL for being appointed as Wing/CC.    Such things have happened.

Now, a member can only be promoted on a waiver just once.  I always recommend saving a waiver for promotions to LT COL.

mikeylikey

^ What would constitute a Waiver?

What's up monkeys?

ßτε

^See CAPR 35-5 paragraph 8e and paragraph 19.  They are technically "Exceptional Qualification" promotions.

SJFedor

Quote from: CadetProgramGuy on March 30, 2008, 04:47:28 AM
Quote from: mikeylikey on March 30, 2008, 03:29:32 AM
The Officer in question here received 1st Lt FEB 2007, thus only needs to wait until August 2008 to get TIG promotion to CAPTAIN?  Why the rush FlyGuy06?

flyguy06....don't be angry with me, that info came PM'ed to me.  I am in no way psychic, or have NHQ connections (or do I  :o   )

I look at this from another perspective.  You only get to use 1 of the special promotions.

Either Mitchell to Lt -or- CFI to Capt.

Sounds like he has the Mitchell to Lt used, wait out the TIG.


Well, to thoroughly defeat this....
Quote from: CAPR35-5
g. After initial appointment, members may advance to the grades authorized for higher mission related skills as higher ratings are obtained without reference to time-in-grade upon recommendation by the unit commander.

Steven Fedor, NREMT-P
Master Ambulance Driver
Former Capt, MP, MCPE, MO, MS, GTL, and various other 3-and-4 letter combinations
NESA MAS Instructor, 2008-2010 (#479)

ßτε

Quote from: FW on March 30, 2008, 03:47:41 PM
Now, a member can only be promoted on a waiver just once.  I always recommend saving a waiver for promotions to LT COL.

I am not sure where it states that a member can only be promoted on a waiver just once. I can't find it in CAPR 35-5, but maybe I am looking in the wrong place.

FW

^ It doesn't say waivers are granted only once anywhere.  However, as most waivers are for Maj. or Lt Col, there's not much more you can expect.  Also, the National Promotions board, to my knowledge, (and I don't know too much  ;D) has never granted two waivers to the same person before.  
It's just that you can make it to Capt. w/o any waivers.  You can make it to Maj by stepping up to the plate as a group/cc.  For what other reasons would a waiver be necessary more than once?

Eclipse

Quote from: FW on March 30, 2008, 07:14:04 PM
^ It doesn't say waivers are granted only once anywhere.  However, as most waivers are for Maj. or Lt Col, there's not much more you can expect.  Also, the National Promotions board, to my knowledge, (and I don't know too much  ;D) has never granted two waivers to the same person before. 
It's just that you can make it to Capt. w/o any waivers.  You can make it to Maj by stepping up to the plate as a group/cc.  For what other reasons would a waiver be necessary more than once?

I think you guys are mixing "waiver" with other types of special appointment, etc.
I view a "waiver" as an extraordinary promotion where the member "needs" or "deserves" the higher grade because of some special skill or duty, but doesn't meet other requirements.  The (defeated) discussion at the NB about Region Chaplans being Lt. Col's would fall into "waiver land"

There is no prohibition on the number of times a member can be granted a special appointment, nor at what level a member can walk in the door, assuming the echelon with authority grants the promotion or initial grade.

Another example is Lt. Col. for the commander of a legislative squadron.

Otherwise, you meet the requirment or you don't, and if things change personally and it fills a box that provides more grade, so be it.

I see no reason, a member could not walk in the door as a 1st Lt/new unit CC because of cadet activity, make captain after a year at the unit, then make major upon appointment as a Group CC.

In both cases its the Wing CC's call (some regions are reviewing all SP's now), and if he says "cool", so be it.  Odds are this would rarely be a low-visibility empty shirt.

If he's a wunderkin and is appointed to a Wing or Region CC a year later, so be it.

I am personally aware of several cadets who slowed at Lt. Col., then enlisted to storied careers in the MC$ and came back to CAP as strong leaders who know the program.

The above progression would not be inappropriate in those cases.

"That Others May Zoom"

Flying Pig

Quote from: mikeylikey on March 30, 2008, 03:29:32 AM
The Officer in question here received 1st Lt FEB 2007, thus only needs to wait until August 2008 to get TIG promotion to CAPTAIN?  Why the rush FlyGuy06?

flyguy06....don't be angry with me, that info came PM'ed to me.  I am in no way psychic, or have NHQ connections (or do I  :o   )


Thats funny....so one of our "nameless" members on CAPTalk is either in, or closely associated to my unit.  Im curious to know if their info is accurate.

FW

Waivers.  Let me explain.  One can be waived up to 1/2 the TIG requirement for promotion under special circumstances; say you were appointed wing/cs. Your are currently a Maj. and the CC would like you to be a Lt Col.  You've been a Maj for 2 years and have a Garber.  The wing/cc puts you in for a promotion.  The region/cc says "great".  It goes to Natl. and the promotion board agrees.  Ta Da! you're promoted.

A direct appointment to Lt Col. is not considered a waiver.  It is considered a "special appointment".  

In any case.  If you would like a waiver to be promoted "before your time".  You need to: have a very special reason, be reccomended (usually by your wing/cc) and be approved by the National Promotion Board.

Waived vs. Promoted for other reasons.  There is a difference.

ßτε

Quote from: FW on March 30, 2008, 09:44:55 PM
Waivers.  Let me explain.  One can be waived up to 1/2 the TIG requirement for promotion under special circumstances;

Can you please indicate where this is in the regulations. I just can't find anything as particular as waiving up to 1/2 the TIG. The part I read doesn't have any particulars on what can and cannot be waived.

FW

CAPR 35-5 regarding waivers:
e. In unusual cases where an exceptionally qualified individual does not meet the promotion eligibility criteria of the applicable promotion method outlined in 8a above, a waiver may be requested by the unit commander, provided he or she can prove that the member concerned has a skill or background unique to CAP which makes him or her eminently qualified for the grade recommended ahead of his or her peers. Each region commander has authority to waive promotion eligibility criteria for the grades of second lieutenant through captain for exceptionally qualified personnel assigned to the region headquarters and subordinate units within the region. This authority will not be delegated. Requests to waive promotion eligibility criteria for major and lieutenant colonel will be considered by the National Promotion Review Board. The following procedures will apply:
National Promotion Board has taken this to mean TIG waiver.  Traditionally, you must have all requiremets for the grade.  However, in very rare cases, the National/CC has promoted some individuals for superior duty performance, ie. Hawk Mt. School/Director, w/o going through the usual procedures.  I guess there are exceptions for every guideline. 
Anyway, I guess we're getting away from the topic.

Pylon

Quote from: bte on March 30, 2008, 10:12:44 PM
Quote from: FW on March 30, 2008, 09:44:55 PM
Waivers.  Let me explain.  One can be waived up to 1/2 the TIG requirement for promotion under special circumstances;

Can you please indicate where this is in the regulations. I just can't find anything as particular as waiving up to 1/2 the TIG. The part I read doesn't have any particulars on what can and cannot be waived.

It's just another case of people completely making stuff up.  There's seems to be an awful lot of that in this thread.
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

FW

So, Michael, are you saying I'm making this stuff up?  Well, I guess I could be. However, With about 7 years experience as a NB member and with over 3 years as a member of the MARB,  I think I have a pretty good idea of how things run in CAP.
If I'm mistaken on this, can you find me anything which will contradict my posts?


Pylon

Quote from: FW on March 31, 2008, 02:35:08 AM
So, Michael, are you saying I'm making this stuff up?  Well, I guess I could be. However, With about 7 years experience as a NB member and with over 3 years as a member of the MARB,  I think I have a pretty good idea of how things run in CAP.
If I'm mistaken on this, can you find me anything which will contradict my posts?

Yeah, CAPR 35-5.  One can be waived any or all of the required TIG.  There's no stipulation for 1/2.  Though I don't have such impressive bullet points on my CAP CV, I've watched people in my squadron get special promotions/waivers/whatever you want to call them to Captain with virtually no TIG clocked towards it.

Perhaps the National Promotions Board has it's own internal criteria for Major and Lt Col promotions, but it's not a stipulation of CAPR 35-5 and it would only then apply to Major and Lt Col promotions... 2d Lt through Capt is still handled at the discretion of the Region Commanders.


What I'm trying to point out is that a lot of people continually throw things out here in this thread as "this is how it is", when in fact it's just opinion, observed practice from their area, or simply bad information.

But if you have knowledge of other requirements/criteria that the National Promotions Board  stipulates, please do share so that we can all benefit from the knowledge.
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

FW

Quote from: FW on March 30, 2008, 10:39:17 PM
CAPR 35-5 regarding waivers:
e. In unusual cases where an exceptionally qualified individual does not meet the promotion eligibility criteria of the applicable promotion method outlined in 8a above, a waiver may be requested by the unit commander, provided he or she can prove that the member concerned has a skill or background unique to CAP which makes him or her eminently qualified for the grade recommended ahead of his or her peers. Each region commander has authority to waive promotion eligibility criteria for the grades of second lieutenant through captain for exceptionally qualified personnel assigned to the region headquarters and subordinate units within the region. This authority will not be delegated. Requests to waive promotion eligibility criteria for major and lieutenant colonel will be considered by the National Promotion Review Board. The following procedures will apply:
National Promotion Board has taken this to mean TIG waiver.  Traditionally, you must have all requiremets for the grade.  However, in very rare cases, the National/CC has promoted some individuals for superior duty performance, ie. Hawk Mt. School/Director, w/o going through the usual procedures.  I guess there are exceptions for every guideline.   Anyway, I guess we're getting away from the topic.

I never said this was in the regs.  Just that the National Promotion Review Board has its own guidelines.  This is what has been explained to me.  This is what CAP/DP has confirmed with me.  I'll stand by my comments.



mikeylikey

^ I don't understand Col......the review board does it's own thing outside of written guidelines?  (Maybe I am a little slow on the uptake here, but that is what I got from your sentence)
What's up monkeys?

LtCol Hooligan

Quote from: FW on March 30, 2008, 09:44:55 PM
Waivers.  Let me explain.  One can be waived up to 1/2 the TIG requirement for promotion under special circumstances; say you were appointed wing/cs. Your are currently a Maj. and the CC would like you to be a Lt Col.  You've been a Maj for 2 years and have a Garber.  The wing/cc puts you in for a promotion.  The region/cc says "great".  It goes to Natl. and the promotion board agrees.  Ta Da! you're promoted.
FW- The thing is that you did say this.  Everything above appears that you read the regs and that is how you answered the question- based off the regs.  You even bolded things.  This is how incorrect information gets spread and people start doign the wrong thing.  I understand you saw this done at nationals, but this does not mean it is the "requirement".  As we have seen from the previous posts, the reg outlines the requirements.  Keep in mind that people read everything you write and some may have stopped there- with your last post and said cool- just got to meet half time.  In reality this is how it may have been on some occasions, but not correct per the regs.  Not trying to put you off here, but this thread has shown that several people are saying things that they "believe" are true but in reality are not, once people read the regs. 
ERIK C. LUDLOW, Lt Col, CAP
Director of IT; Director of Cadet Programs
North Dakota Wing, Civil Air Patrol
http://www.ndcap.us

FW

Members need to read the regs fully.  Also, understand that any promotion board which meets makes recommendations to the commander.  It's the national commander who makes these final decisions.  When you read these regs., and not just 35-5, there many places where it implicitly calls for judgement by the commander or board.  This is a two edge sword.  However, if we are to abide by our core values and have a strong ethical standard.  These regs won't be abused.  
Understand, I'm not commenting on promotions to CAPT for CFI or professional appointments, etc.; just a waiver of requirements to Maj or Lt Col.  You need to check with your region commander for waivers from 2Lt to Capt.
There's nothing else I can contribute to this thread.  If you need more info, I suggest you check out the CAP Knowledgebase .