Thoughts on Pilot Qualifications

Started by MIKE, November 13, 2007, 10:55:24 PM

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flyguy06

Quote from: MIKE on November 13, 2007, 10:55:24 PM
In my non-pilot opinion, It should not be possible to qualify for any CAP aeronautical rating without flying a CAP aircraft.  Some have stated that in CAP aircraft does not mean that the qualifying flight need be completed in a CAP aircraft... If this is true, I believe that CAPR 60-1 3-2 should be changed to reflect that the qualifying flight(s) must occur in a CAP aircraftCAP aircraft as defined by CAPR 60-1 1-6. a.

Using CAP Solo Pilot as an example: This would thus change it so that it is not possible for a member to solo outside of CAP and automatically rate CAP Solo Pilot with just an endorsement from a CAP IP. The member would have to solo again in a CAP aircraft under appropriate conditions to qualify for the rating/aviation badge... Like a form 5.  Maybe make a section for a solo flight check.

Its done like all the time at flight schools. If a student solos at flight school A then goes to fligh school B, he will have to get with a CFI and try to solo all over again

flyguy06

Quote from: Fifinella on November 14, 2007, 05:05:25 PM
Not sure what your concern is on this issue. 

In my case, I came to CAP with a Commercial Multi-Engine license.  [Due to having been an AF pliot, and taking the FAA military equivalency test, I could legally fly planes with 2 or more engines, but not less.]  :D

The way 60-1 is written, I could not use CAP aircraft to receive training for my Single engine add-on because I was not already a CAP pilot, and I could not become a CAP pilot because I didn't have a Single engine rating, and therefore, could not check out in a CAP plane.

So I paid out of my own pocket, driving 2 hrs each way to the flight school, to get my single-engine rating.  I took my checkflight with an FAA examiner who was also a CAP evaluator, and received my FAA certification and my Form 5 on the same flight.

According to your construct, I should not have been able to become a CAP pilot and MTP in this way, but should instead have gotten my FAA cert and then taken a Form 5 flight in a CAP aircraft.  Why?

I am trying to bring my expertise to CAP.  Why make it more difficult/annoying/expensive than it already is?

I dont know about that. If you got a military equivilancy test, then you are recognized by the FAA to be a Commercial pilot. If thats thecase then CAP should recognize you as a commercial piot and you should not have had to go get a civilian license. Unless your military equivilency was for Commercial multi and nothing single engine. If thats the case then I can understand. You had to get an FAA single engine rating.

Mustang

Quote from: flyguy06 on January 25, 2008, 03:32:17 AMI dont know about that. If you got a military equivilancy test, then you are recognized by the FAA to be a Commercial pilot. If thats thecase then CAP should recognize you as a commercial piot and you should not have had to go get a civilian license. Unless your military equivilency was for Commercial multi and nothing single engine. If thats the case then I can understand. You had to get an FAA single engine rating.

Most military equivalency exams result in a Commercial Pilot Airplane Multiengine Land (Limited to centerline thrust).

In any case, the latest CAPR 60-1 now permits training in corporate aircraft for holders of a Private Pilot certificate (or better) with an Airplane Multiengine Land rating, for the purpose of adding a single-engine class rating to their certificate.
"Amateurs train until they get it right; Professionals train until they cannot get it wrong. "


bosshawk

A small nitpic: the issue of center line thrust only applies(I think) to Navy, Marine and AF pilots while in flight training or just after, since they tend to train on center line thrust jets.  The Army doesn't have any center line engined airplanes(twins) that I know about.  Most of my Army Mohawk buddies got Comm, Multi, Instrument with no limitations.  Helicopter guys get the same thing for helicopters.

I know about the center line deal because a buddy of mine flew recce Phantoms, after training in T-37s and T-38, both center line planes.
Paul M. Reed
Col, USA(ret)
Former CAP Lt Col
Wilson #2777

WT

As long as you are getting a checkout with a CAP checkpilot who is covering the Form5, why would you not be able to do this is a non-CAP aircraft?

BlueLakes1

Most USAF pilots who are in the pipeline now will finish with a commercial single engine as well. The last T-37 is being pulled from the fleet within the next two weeks, and pilots who train in the T-6 do get a single engine rating on their equivalency.

The issue of centerline thrust depends on what track you take. If you are bound for fighters or bombers, you go T-38; if you go into heavy jets, you track select into the T-1. Both of those are centerline thrust, and pilots get the restriction (although T-1 folks also get a Beechjet type rating). Many C-130 candidates go to Corpus Christi to train in the T-44/C-12, basically a King Air. Those folks don't get centerline thrust limitations.
Col Matthew Creed, CAP
GLR/CC

ricecakecm

Quote from: Redfire11 on March 26, 2008, 10:29:24 PM
Most USAF pilots who are in the pipeline now will finish with a commercial single engine as well. The last T-37 is being pulled from the fleet within the next two weeks, and pilots who train in the T-6 do get a single engine rating on their equivalency.

The issue of centerline thrust depends on what track you take. If you are bound for fighters or bombers, you go T-38; if you go into heavy jets, you track select into the T-1. Both of those are centerline thrust, and pilots get the restriction (although T-1 folks also get a Beechjet type rating). Many C-130 candidates go to Corpus Christi to train in the T-44/C-12, basically a King Air. Those folks don't get centerline thrust limitations.



Matthew-

The T-1/BE-400 isn't centerline thrust.

According to AC 61-89E, the following airplanes get you a centerline thrust restriction:

With Center Thrust Limitation
1. Cessna 336/337, T-37
2. Fairchild Republic A-l0 Thunderbolt
3. General Dynamics F-111
4. Grumman A6-E Intruder
5. McDonnell-Douglas F-4 Phantom
6. McDonnell-Douglas F-15 Eagle
7. Northrop/McDonnell-Douglas F-18A
8. Northrop T-38 Talon
9. Rockwell International T2 Buckeye

And, believe it or not, these two planes do not have a CLT restriction attached:
Without Limitation
1. Cessna A-37 Dragonfly
2. Grumman American F-14 Tomcat

"In the case of an applicant who requests the issuance of a multiengine class or type rating
based on military qualification in an aircraft not listed herein, but for which the manufacturer
has not provided documentary evidence of a minimum control speed for that aircraft, all
available data shall be forwarded to AFS-800 for review and evaluation to determine the
limitations necessary. It is expected that aircraft models will be added to, or deleted from, this
list by AFS-800 as circumstances warrant in the future."

A friend of mine went thru B-737 school with some guys who were Viper drivers.  The only multi-engine airplanes they'd flown had been T-37's and T-38's, so they had CLT restrictions.  Their checkride involved removing the CLT restriction, getting an ATP, and a 737 type.

DNall

Quote from: Trung Si Ma on November 14, 2007, 01:29:00 PM
PS - for you pilot types, the mods are because of my affinity for landing on grass, dirt, and gravel - intentionally.
You can compare notes with my cousin. He graduated the academy couple yeas ago, finishing up fighter track in Del Rio right now, just got U-28 (PC-12), headed to new mexico working for AFSOC. Now that'd be a sweet plane to land in on grass.

a2capt

On that topic of CAP ratings and not in CAP aircraft-

Well, if without rental/owned aircraft I would have not been able to much if any flying for CAP.

There are way more pilots and political walls than available aircraft. I have subsequently taken check rides in corporate 182's but it's not nearly as convenient.

For those units without their own aircraft it's just a scheduling nightmare sometimes.

jayleswo

I do remember the days of huge searches and dozens of aircraft flying them, most of which were member owned. Would have been very hard to become a CAP Pilot if you required a checkout in a corporate owned bird.

-- John
John Aylesworth, Lt Col CAP

SAR/DR MP, Mission Check Pilot Examiner, Master Observer
Earhart #1139 FEB 1982

MIKE

That is not the point of this thread.  CAP aircraft as defined can be member owned aircraft used in an approved flight activity.
Mike Johnston

BlueLakes1

#51
Quote from: ricecakecm on March 27, 2008, 02:39:18 AM
Quote from: Redfire11 on March 26, 2008, 10:29:24 PM
Most USAF pilots who are in the pipeline now will finish with a commercial single engine as well. The last T-37 is being pulled from the fleet within the next two weeks, and pilots who train in the T-6 do get a single engine rating on their equivalency.

The issue of centerline thrust depends on what track you take. If you are bound for fighters or bombers, you go T-38; if you go into heavy jets, you track select into the T-1. Both of those are centerline thrust, and pilots get the restriction (although T-1 folks also get a Beechjet type rating). Many C-130 candidates go to Corpus Christi to train in the T-44/C-12, basically a King Air. Those folks don't get centerline thrust limitations.



Matthew-

The T-1/BE-400 isn't centerline thrust.

According to AC 61-89E, the following airplanes get you a centerline thrust restriction:

With Center Thrust Limitation
1. Cessna 336/337, T-37
2. Fairchild Republic A-l0 Thunderbolt
3. General Dynamics F-111
4. Grumman A6-E Intruder
5. McDonnell-Douglas F-4 Phantom
6. McDonnell-Douglas F-15 Eagle
7. Northrop/McDonnell-Douglas F-18A
8. Northrop T-38 Talon
9. Rockwell International T2 Buckeye

And, believe it or not, these two planes do not have a CLT restriction attached:
Without Limitation
1. Cessna A-37 Dragonfly
2. Grumman American F-14 Tomcat

"In the case of an applicant who requests the issuance of a multiengine class or type rating
based on military qualification in an aircraft not listed herein, but for which the manufacturer
has not provided documentary evidence of a minimum control speed for that aircraft, all
available data shall be forwarded to AFS-800 for review and evaluation to determine the
limitations necessary. It is expected that aircraft models will be added to, or deleted from, this
list by AFS-800 as circumstances warrant in the future."

A friend of mine went thru B-737 school with some guys who were Viper drivers.  The only multi-engine airplanes they'd flown had been T-37's and T-38's, so they had CLT restrictions.  Their checkride involved removing the CLT restriction, getting an ATP, and a 737 type.

Interesting, I stand corrected.

I was a bit surprised to see that the T-37 was given as a CLT restricted type while the A-37s wasn't, since they're essentially the same plane. The A-37's engines are substantially more powerful than the T-37's, so that probably affected performance enough that they published a Vmc on the A-37.

Of course the F-14 isn't a CLT plane. Haven't you seen Top Gun? If the Tomcat was CLT, then the flameout of one engine wouldn't cause the plane to enter a flat spin!  ;)
Col Matthew Creed, CAP
GLR/CC

davidsinn

Quote from: Redfire11 on March 28, 2008, 03:31:46 PM


Interesting, I stand corrected.

I was a bit surprised to see that the T-37 was given as a CLT restricted type while the A-37s wasn't, since they're essentially the same plane. The A-37's engines are substantially more powerful than the T-37's, so that probably affected performance enough that they published a Vmc on the A-37.

Of course the F-14 isn't a CLT plane. Haven't you seen Top Gun? If the Tomcat was CLT, then the flameout of one engine wouldn't cause the plane to enter a flat spin!  ;)

I knew you couldn't talk about the Tomcat and not mention that movie ;-) Congrats on your new position Major.
Former CAP Captain
David Sinn