The program is still a long way from being operational. We cannot fly them in a real mission or SAREX funded by the Air Force. Last SAREX we had this past weekend, we were instructed to go in to WIMIRS and erase any mention of the drone in our SORTIE, like it never happened. Total BS.
DB
This is what happens when people decide to jump the gun.
Color me naive, but does either CAP or Ma Blue have anything on the books PROHIBITING sUAS operations? Because if they don't, then I don't see the problem with using any and all tools available to accomplish the mission....
You can't touch a radio or stand in an ICP in CAP without formal training and approval, so
you certainly can't introduce an aircraft into a mission environment without that same training and approval.
Further, the effectiveness and utility of said aircraft is highly suspect, at best, without the requisite
Part 107 waivers for multiple factors (31, 33, 39, 51).
And the non-trivial issue that advanced tech with little experience raises the ORM numbers pretty significantly.
We were also told that the Air Force had concerns of spyware being installed in these machines since they came from China. WELL DUH!!!
As a side note, after Not Flying this thing in a Sortie that never existed (sarcasm), I do not think they are going to be an asset except in mapping missions after a natural disaster. I can see them being a very good asset in that scenario.
The line of sight regulation and short battery life are the two largest limiting factors in using these machines.
I would hate to see this program go the way of the VIRB but there is still much to be worked out.
DB
Quote from: deepblue1947 on August 12, 2019, 12:24:24 AM
We were also told that the Air Force had concerns of spyware being installed in these machines since they came from China. WELL DUH!!!
This appears to be an ongoing pretend problem not applicable to CAP, and also not something CAP can control or remediate.
There is no way CAP is ever going to be able to afford UAVs built in the CONUS with any sort of guarantee they don't have back doors
in the software. If that's a legit concern, NHQ might as well just delete the white papers and use the time to name the rest of the Cadet ACHs.
It's literally irrelevant to the vast majority of CAP ops, and probably all of them. CAP members don't operate in a classified
environment, and ES operations are essentially public-facing / publicly accessible. Yes, on occasion the customer might prefer
the various photos be kept to them, but the Chinese are certainly not going to care about "that flooded block in Iowa", any more then
they care about the location and timing of Delta Flight's chow at an encampment.
These are not CAP realities.
Quote from: Eclipse on August 12, 2019, 12:50:58 AM
Quote from: deepblue1947 on August 12, 2019, 12:24:24 AM
We were also told that the Air Force had concerns of spyware being installed in these machines since they came from China. WELL DUH!!!
This appears to be an ongoing pretend problem not applicable to CAP, and also not something CAP can control or remediate.
There is no way CAP is ever going to be able to afford UAVs built in the CONUS with any sort of guarantee they don't have back doors
in the software. If that's a legit concern, NHQ might as well just delete the white papers and use the time to name the rest of the Cadet ACHs.
It's literally irrelevant to the vast majority of CAP ops, and probably all of them. CAP members don't operate in a classified
environment, and ES operations are essentially public-facing / publicly accessible. Yes, on occasion the customer might prefer
the various photos be kept to them, but the Chinese are certainly not going to care about "that flooded block in Iowa", any more then
they care about the location and timing of Delta Flight's chow at an encampment.
These are not CAP realities.
No, but it can mean something to our "customers" who task us and who are paying us.
Quote from: Eclipse on August 12, 2019, 12:50:58 AM
Quote from: deepblue1947 on August 12, 2019, 12:24:24 AM
We were also told that the Air Force had concerns of spyware being installed in these machines since they came from China. WELL DUH!!!
This appears to be an ongoing pretend problem not applicable to CAP, and also not something CAP can control or remediate.
There is no way CAP is ever going to be able to afford UAVs built in the CONUS with any sort of guarantee they don't have back doors
in the software. If that's a legit concern, NHQ might as well just delete the white papers and use the time to name the rest of the Cadet ACHs.
It's literally irrelevant to the vast majority of CAP ops, and probably all of them. CAP members don't operate in a classified
environment, and ES operations are essentially public-facing / publicly accessible. Yes, on occasion the customer might prefer
the various photos be kept to them, but the Chinese are certainly not going to care about "that flooded block in Iowa", any more then
they care about the location and timing of Delta Flight's chow at an encampment.
These are not CAP realities.
I do not disagree with you at all. Just passing on what we were told "from above"
Quote from: PHall on August 12, 2019, 01:28:11 AM
No, but it can mean something to our "customers" who task us and who are paying us.
A: There's nothing new under the sun. Anything CAP can see, so can the news choppers, any GA aircraft,
and the satellites, probably with more precision. By the time CAP gets on scene at a DA, it's already been on the
news for a week if not longer. In regards to military site surveys - looks good on a t-shirt and makes
for a nice photo op, but anything sensitive or critical is going to be handled either internally or by a contractor,
and isn't going to wait on CAP.
B: If that is a "thing" then they would / will need to contract with a different agency, for considerably
more money, but shorts and golf shirts vs. uniforms and less approval hassle.
My AOR includes one of the largest cities in the US, with very well funded LE, FD, and EM resources.
I recently had this direct conversation locally and the response was "no, were not ramping up anyone
internally for UAVs, we've got local contractors who can come out when needed."
That's not a "someday" or a "future", that's a "today".
How does CAP get a tow hold in that when they've already been usurped?
Quote from: deepblue1947 on August 11, 2019, 10:34:41 PM
The program is still a long way from being operational. We cannot fly them in a real mission or SAREX funded by the Air Force. Last SAREX we had this past weekend, we were instructed to go in to WIMIRS and erase any mention of the drone in our SORTIE, like it never happened. Total BS.
Geez. How did you add the drone to the Mission? When it asks for an aircraft type, drones are not in the pulldown list. Who in the world authorized anyone in your Squadron to "self-deploy" with a drone?
We are in the training mode. Until we have a sufficient number of sUAS Mission Pilots spread out nationwide and have everything ready to enter into WMIRS .. we are NOT mission capable. Even for a SAREX.
QuoteThere's nothing new under the sun. Anything CAP can see, so can the news choppers, any GA aircraft,
and the satellites ....
Which is why we do VERY little SAR in my area. All the police and Sherriffs have airplanes and helicopters. They only call AFRCC when they give up looking, which is rare. These issues are CAP wide, not just with drones. The cell Phone team does 90% now anyway.
QuoteAs a side note, after Not Flying this thing in a Sortie that never existed (sarcasm), I do not think they are going to be an asset except in mapping missions after a natural disaster. I can see them being a very good asset in that scenario. The line of sight regulation and short battery life are the two largest limiting factors in using these machines.
Tornado, hurricane , flooding ... the APs in the airplanes will always be first line. Drones would be after FEMA sees the former and decides they want a closer look at a few city blocks here and there, of buildings from rooftop levels. Small areas.
Yes, the drones are just another tool in the toolbox. But we have to train enough people to fly them, before we can tell FEMA and others "we are ready to fly".
Someone in my Wing recently said "I wish Hdqs would settle on a type of camera platform for us to use." Steam came out of my ears. Thats like telling an auto mechanic to pick just one wrench. Every tool has a specific use. The DSLR, the Virb, the drones, all have different uses, and will be requested either together or at different times. They'll sit in the closet most of the time. But when a Mission comes, we'll have options, and customers can choose what they need.
The current Puerto Rico mission is another good example. We provide the planes and aircrews, and FEMA rents WaldoAir gear.
Quote from: etodd on August 12, 2019, 02:15:05 AM
Someone in my Wing recently said "I wish Hdqs would settle on a type of camera platform for us to use." Steam came out of my ears. Thats like telling an auto mechanic to pick just one wrench. Every tool has a specific use. The DSLR, the Virb, the drones, all have different uses, and will be requested either together or at different times. They'll sit in the closet most of the time. But when a Mission comes, we'll have options, and customers can choose what they need.
It's called "standardized training" - few, if any, are the wings capable of sustained operations in a local DA on the
scale of Katrina or Sandy, so if you're going to have to drag people 1/2 way across the country to take photos, they
have to be proficient before they get there.
At least they do if you have any expectations of "capabilities" - if a given wing has special needs, those should be accommodated
outside and after everyone is proficient with the standard equipment.
You do that by making a decision(s), deploying the equipment in actual quantities that allow access to the majority of members,
including spares, and you hold people accountable for achieving the goals you set forth, otherwise it never exceeds "per project"
status, and won't be taken seriously.
And if the organisation is unable or unwilling to do the above, disengage and work on what it can do.
Quote from: Eclipse on August 12, 2019, 02:58:47 AM
It's called "standardized training" - few, if any, are the wings capable of sustained operations in a local DA on the
scale of Katrina or Sandy, so if you're going to have to drag people 1/2 way across the country to take photos, they
have to be proficient before they get there.
Or like the current Puerto Rico mission, we just provide the aircrews. FEMA provides the high tech gear. A win-win. :)
Quote from: Eclipse on August 12, 2019, 02:58:47 AM
You do that by making a decision(s), deploying the equipment in actual quantities that allow access to the majority of members,
including spares, and you hold people accountable for achieving the goals you set forth, otherwise it never exceeds "per project"
status, and won't be taken seriously.
Agree. Its all being done, just on a very slooow timetable. Which is why I keep saying we are just in the training mode, and may well be for a couple years. Anyone trying to "jump the gun" and running missions is a problem for sure.
I'm training my folks at an old abandoned golf course, away from the city center and people. And that is where we will stay, until National has us all up and running in eServices, WMIRS, and everything ready for Prime Time.
Limited gear and short batteries, means I meet with ONE person that day and they have enough battery to train for about 90 minutes. Thats it for the day. Maybe next week I'll meet with another one, if no rain that day. Its a slow process. Slow and steady. I have 5 MPs in my Wing today and another 5 or 6 who should finish up in about a month. Our goal is to have 10 teams (2 per team) signed off by end of this year. That'll give us a good start.
You can't buy more batteries?
So until there is USAF approval, that means all training has to be done on C missions, right? Who is funding that?
Quote from: Eclipse on August 12, 2019, 03:18:45 AM
You can't buy more batteries?
3 batteries are supplied, with gives less than 90 minutes. Nat and Wing is balking at buying us any more per drone, since the batts are about $170 each for the P4P. :(
Yes, it does go to what you said about sufficient gear. LOL
So, I'm using my personal batteries and my personal P4P to help out. It is, what it is.
Quote from: Fubar on August 12, 2019, 03:28:19 AM
So until there is USAF approval, that means all training has to be done on C missions, right? Who is funding that?
Funding what? No avgas needed, and there isn't any rent due like with a C-182. I'll tell one of my guys "Hey the wx looks great tomorrow, lets go fly the drone!" We meet up and fly. Maybe lunch afterwards but thats dutch treat. LOL
Quote from: etodd on August 12, 2019, 04:11:37 AMFunding what? No avgas needed, and there isn't any rent due like with a C-182. I'll tell one of my guys "Hey the wx looks great tomorrow, lets go fly the drone!" We meet up and fly. Maybe lunch afterwards but thats dutch treat. LOL
I guess I don't know what kind of training you guys are doing then (mostly because I haven't seen any specified missions to train for). I figured you drone guys would participate in wing exercises since typically all available resources are used, but it appears we can't do that now because exercises are Air Force funded missions.
Is everything you do isolated from the rest of our ES mission? Meaning no coordination or training with ground teams, disaster relief, or even practice coordination with CAP aircraft that are operating in the area?
I'm going to watch the sUAS webinar you posted, perhaps some of these questions are answered there.
Quote from: Eclipse on August 11, 2019, 11:27:50 PM
Further, the effectiveness and utility of said aircraft is highly suspect, at best, without the requisite
Part 107 waivers for multiple factors (31, 33, 39, 51).
I don't think that's the case. There is no need for a section 39 waiver for aerial photography, damage assessment or SAR operations. If one incidentally overflies the target of a SAR mission, it's hardly a section 39 violation.
Likewise, sUAS can be effective in imaging without the need for section 31 and 33 waivers. I fly my Chinese Mavic Air knockoff out to a mile or more and can maintain awareness of attitude and altitude.
I'm not sure what part of section 51 you think needs a waiver for CAP applications. The speed limit is just fine, 400 feet of altitude is more than enough (and keeps us out of GA's way), and unless you're hoping to deploy the system in an active storm, the visibility and cloud ceiling limits are just fine...
^^^ Yes, I really do see sUAS as being second or maybe even third wave. As I said above, first in a disaster will be the APs in the airplane who can cover large areas and distance best. FEMA or whoever, seeing those photos, may want closer views of certain areas. Thats when the sUAS team would drive in. And by close, I mean anywhere from 50 - 200 feet agl. Low enough to get great detail and show sides of buildings, yet well below any other traffic flying around.
Mapping at 200 feet of debris piles later in the event could be used for calculations of how many square yards of materials are in each pile. A great asset for FEMA or cities who hire the companies that haul it off.
Quote from: Fubar on August 12, 2019, 05:48:16 AM
Is everything you do isolated from the rest of our ES mission? Meaning no coordination or training with ground teams, disaster relief, or even practice coordination with CAP aircraft that are operating in the area?
At this point , yes. Just trying to teach as many MPs as possible for now. Then for sure, at some point we will be training with ground teams, since on a real mission, we would most likely be traveling and working together. As I described above, most likely the airplanes will have completed their missions before the drones come out. Even if not, we will be well below their altitudes.
At some point, AFTER sUAS is in WMIRS, we can then start properly mixing with SAREX activity. Get our briefings at mission base for a sUAS mission. Load up the gear in the van, and head out with the ground teams. Fly the mission and drive back to mission base and load the images into the computers.
Quote from: CFToaster on August 12, 2019, 12:14:16 PM
Likewise, sUAS can be effective in imaging without the need for section 31 and 33 waivers. I fly my Chinese Mavic Air knockoff out to a mile or more and can maintain awareness of attitude and altitude.
107 31 doesn't say "aware" it says "Fly a UAS beyond your ability to clearly determine its orientation with unaided vision".
That's not physically possible at a mile unless you are a "strange visitor from another planet".
You're making my point - your liberal interpretation of 31 violates the FAR, and we all know this would be something
extremely tempting for CAP members, especially gung ho cadets with proficiency on the UAV but lack of knowledge of
CAP procedure and rules.
Quote from: Eclipse on August 12, 2019, 01:50:07 PM
Quote from: CFToaster on August 12, 2019, 12:14:16 PM
Likewise, sUAS can be effective in imaging without the need for section 31 and 33 waivers. I fly my Chinese Mavic Air knockoff out to a mile or more and can maintain awareness of attitude and altitude.
107 31 doesn't say "aware" it says "Fly a UAS beyond your ability to clearly determine its orientation with unaided vision".
That's not physically possible at a mile unless you are a "strange visitor from another planet".
You're making my point - your liberal interpretation of 31 violates the FAR, and we all know this would be something
extremely tempting for CAP members, especially gung ho cadets with proficiency on the UAV but lack of knowledge of
CAP procedure and rules.
Agree completely. It would be an extreme circumstance that we would need a VLOS waiver, and if so, it would be a Hdqs decision and they would apply for it. CAP is Part 107 and will comply.
Cadets? None in my Wing will fly the drones until they get their Part 107 first. So far the number is zero.
I wish I had the optimism that E Todd has but I do not. We are returning the P4P we were assigned to the Wing to be put in the closet until National gets their stuff together. I was one of the first two technicians to get qualified in our region. I really do not want to get into the fiasco we went through when Hurricane Barry hit but suffice it to say, no one seems to know what is going on with this program since it was rolled out.,. Our wing has been fooling with these things for the past three years when they had the other machines that we could not keep in the air.
In addition, they bring WALDO down here and it does some really beautiful 3D imaging. It starts at $35,000. you cannot get it wet and oh yeah, it takes 3 days to get the pictures back. Who comes up with these pipedreams?
DB
Quote from: deepblue1947 on August 13, 2019, 02:15:59 AM
I wish I had the optimism that E Todd has but I do not. We are returning the P4P we were assigned to the Wing to be put in the closet
Oh man, send it my way. I have folks standing in line wanting to train. I need more gear! LOL
Yes ... some Wings jumped onboard quickly and got sUAS Instructors and Check Pilots in place and are in full training mode. One of the biggest I know of is Maryland. They were up to 25 fully trained and qualified sUAS Mission Pilots a month ago.
Some Wings don't have the "self starters" this program needs. No one is being spoon fed. We spread the word in our Wing, and then waited for the enthusiastic ones to contact us. We train those. :)
Quote
In addition, they bring WALDO down here and it does some really beautiful 3D imaging.
Yes. The current Puerto Rico Mission that is lasting several weeks is using WaldoAir. CAP supplies the planes and aircrews, while FEMA rents the WaldoAir equipment. A win-win.
DSLR .... Garmin Virb .... sUAS Drone .... WaldoAir << Many tools in the toolbox. Each with unique uses. :)
Quote... put in the closet until National gets their stuff together.
HDQS IT folks will eventually get sUAS into eServices and WMIRS. But if you are then expecting some "different" national training stuff to come down the pike and everyone get spoon fed ... Not gonna happen.
The sUAS Mission Task Guide is in place, all the documentation is there for anyone "willing" to dive in and make it happen in their Wing and Squadron.
No ... its not for everyone. Isn't designed to be simple to participate. The Part 107 requirement knocks out a lot of folks for sure. All those FEMA courses will keep many from "getting round to it".
Some things in CAP you can study a little and practice a little and pass (ICUT, Basic ES) , some things take more commitment. sUAS is one of the more difficult ones. By design. We don't want the "Hey! Can I play with the drone?" folks. My reply is always the same: "Sure, you can train and I'll teach you. Call me after you have your Part 107 and completed all the FEMA courses. THEN, we will start flight training".
Here's the nutshell from the seasoned members...
NHQ and individual wings should not be issuing press releases that indicate "fully operational UAV, etc."
when no such mission or capability exists.
That's the major cart before the horse issue here.
Send out some toys, get people interested and involved based purely on the merits of
them being cool in and of themselves as STEM tools, but all the rhetoric about
"operational capability" just makes it look like a typical "wings before the work" CAP initiative.
Quote from: Eclipse on August 13, 2019, 03:15:08 AM
Here's the nutshell from the seasoned members...
NHQ and individual wings should not be issuing press releases that indicate "fully operational UAV, etc."
when no such mission or capability exists.
Agree completely. Earlier in this thread or another one, I mentioned we may still be two years out. We are very early in the training phase. Sure some Wings have large numbers of sUAS MPs trained, but CAP as a whole is NOT mission capable. Heck, we can't even get missions in WMIRS yet. LOL
No, all I'm doing in my Wing now is the slow as snails process of waiting for people to get their Part 107 ... then spend weeks or months to get round to completing all the FEMA courses. Then we start flight training and teaching all the software.
But thats the deal .... without folks like me starting 'now' to train members ... imagine how much further down the road we would be if I were to sit on my thumbs? Due to the nature of people and the slow process, its actually very prudent to get people moving 'now' so that MAYBE in a couple years we can be ready for customer missions.
Why in the world do sUAS MP and sUAS MT need hazmat training?
Quote from: Fester on August 13, 2019, 05:20:45 AM
Why in the world do sUAS MP and sUAS MT need hazmat training?
Batteries?
Quote from: SarDragon on August 13, 2019, 07:07:52 AM
Quote from: Fester on August 13, 2019, 05:20:45 AM
Why in the world do sUAS MP and sUAS MT need hazmat training?
Batteries?
So are they going to add those 2 FEMA courses to the SQTR for GTM3, GTM2, GTM1 and GTL? I can't imagine that the handling of UAS batteries is much more risky than handling the batteries in an L-Per, a Sniffer, a handheld radio, a flashlight, etc.....
Hey, it was just a SWAG. Shoot me.
If those batteries are LiOn, they are much different than those in an Lper, flashlight, etc.
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on August 13, 2019, 12:23:44 PM
If those batteries are LiOn, they are much different than those in an Lper, flashlight, etc.
But no different then the ones in your cell phone.
Quote from: Fester on August 13, 2019, 05:20:45 AM
Why in the world do sUAS MP and sUAS MT need hazmat training?
If it's just the basic level of haz mat training, the goal of it is to be able to identify hazardous materials, not respond to haz mat incidents.
Quote from: arajca on August 13, 2019, 01:14:26 PM
Quote from: Fester on August 13, 2019, 05:20:45 AM
Why in the world do sUAS MP and sUAS MT need hazmat training?
If it's just the basic level of haz mat training, the goal of it is to be able to identify hazardous materials, not respond to haz mat incidents.
Yes ... identify.
Once we are mission ready (still a long way off) ... when you are talking with your local EMA and discussing your MOUs, let them know that we could, from a few blocks away from the overturned railcar, send out a sUAS to help identify the car and its contents. No CAP member would ever approach the railcar and respond in any other way. Basic reconnaissance only, from a distance.
Or overturned tank truck on the highway, etc.
May never get the call for anything like that. But its something to market to our customers. Will sound great in marketing materials, even if we never do it.
It's not just hazmat, the other required course is "Radiological Emergency Management." Maybe we should resurrect our RadMon kits.
If there is an overturned railcar anywhere in our state, CAP isn't even close to being on anyone's list to call to "help identify the car and its contents." Nor will it be added to the list. Marketing it to our customers? Silliness.
Mike
Quote from: sardak on August 13, 2019, 02:00:34 PM
Marketing it to our customers? Silliness.
Maybe so, but with the cell phone team taking credit for over 90% of the saves now .... from the comfort of their homes .... CAP has to keep grasping at straws. Finding a new relevance, somewhere.
While UAS aircraft might be a bit 'unready' for CAP missions, this innovative effort in the great 'Down Under' https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-29/footage-of-man-fishing-from-drone-being-investigated-by-casa/11460604 (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-29/footage-of-man-fishing-from-drone-being-investigated-by-casa/11460604) suggests an alternative use of UAS that could revitalize and expand CAP ground team capabilities. Would a CAPF5 or CAF91 be necessary?
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=21765.msg398364#msg398364
Quote from: Eclipse on August 29, 2019, 03:34:31 PM
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=21765.msg398364#msg398364
Love it. ;D ;D ;D
As for reality. CAP sUAS drone teams are in PR now, practicing with the InstantEye sUAS gear mentioned in the other thread. Waiting it out there to be ready for deployment in Florida.
Yes its real. Yes, its official missions for FEMA. So thankful for the members and Wings who jumped on board early and have us to the point of actually being able to respond when FEMA asks. Its a good thing for CAP.