New Montana Wing Patch

[RiverAux]

I was at the Uniform Brief...and that was the stated policy....before NHQ authorities a wing patch change the wing must buy up the existing stock.

Considering Wing patches are no longer required, VG should discontinue supplying them and let their inventory run out.

That makes a lot of sense to me.  The only potential problem with that is ensuring proper distribution within the Wing.  I would hope our folks would be better at getting these to buyers than Vanguard.  Shouldn't be too hard to have each squadron purchase some  to keep on hand and then sell individually as needed. 

[PHall]

I was at the Uniform Brief...and that was the stated policy....before NHQ authorities a wing patch change the wing must buy up the existing stock.

Considering Wing patches are no longer required, VG should discontinue supplying them and let their inventory run out.

Those wings that want to require them can source them locally, most likely cheaper and with better quality, but
regardless with the ability to control inventory / reorder levels and change at the will of the CC.

There are vendors now that can create patches at very low quantities, so no issues with sourcing.

They may not be required in YOUR wing, but they are required in many other wings. FYI, all of the Wings in Pacific Region require wing patches.

[lordmonar]

I was at the Uniform Brief...and that was the stated policy....before NHQ authorities a wing patch change the wing must buy up the existing stock.

Considering Wing patches are no longer required, VG should discontinue supplying them and let their inventory run out.

Those wings that want to require them can source them locally, most likely cheaper and with better quality, but
regardless with the ability to control inventory / reorder levels and change at the will of the CC.

There are vendors now that can create patches at very low quantities, so no issues with sourcing.

They may not be required in YOUR wing, but they are required in many other wings. FYI, all of the Wings in Pacific Region require wing patches.

I think he was suggesting that.....because it is a WING requirement....then the wing should bear the burden of supplying the required patch not NHQ through Vanguard..  It is what we do at the squadrons....and it is a lot harder to do bulk buys.

[Private Investigator]

MTWG, with the help of NHQ is set to align our wing patch to modern heraldry standards. It makes me want to throw up, but what is done is done.

The person who wants the change is likely the newest person on Wing Staff or did your Wing King/Queen just start their tour? I like the original MTWG patch. BTW, the RMR patch is lame 

[Eclipse]

I was at the Uniform Brief...and that was the stated policy....before NHQ authorities a wing patch change the wing must buy up the existing stock.

Considering Wing patches are no longer required, VG should discontinue supplying them and let their inventory run out.

Those wings that want to require them can source them locally, most likely cheaper and with better quality, but
regardless with the ability to control inventory / reorder levels and change at the will of the CC.

There are vendors now that can create patches at very low quantities, so no issues with sourcing.

They may not be required in YOUR wing, but they are required in many other wings. FYI, all of the Wings in Pacific Region require wing patches.

Yes. We know. Shocked.

[Nolan Teel]

Vanguard has been very good to work with during this process.  They stopped making the old patch a few months ago.  What ever inventory is left will be purchased by the wing. 

And yes I am the new "Wing King". 

The Wing has supported this idea from the get go.  We are excited for the change.

[ColonelJack]

Who made that deal?  Has CAP agreed to buy out the stock of any patch or other uniform item that it changes?  Guaranteed profit - gotta love that.

There is a corollary in the pro sports world ... if Nike, or whoever, makes a facsimile jersey for the fans of a professional athlete, with the player's name and number on it, and the player wants to change his number (but stays on the same team), the league's contract with the vendor states that the player has to buy up all remaining stock of the old jersey before the league will approve the number change.  (If the player is traded the team has to eat that cost, unless I'm mistaken.)

Either way, the vendor isn't going to be out any money.

Jack

[ColonelJack]

Vanguard has been very good to work with during this process.  They stopped making the old patch a few months ago.  What ever inventory is left will be purchased by the wing. 

And yes I am the new "Wing King". 

The Wing has supported this idea from the get go.  We are excited for the change.

Congratulations on your appointment, Colonel!  The best to you and MTWG!

Jack

[A.Member]

MTWG, with the help of NHQ is set to align our wing patch to modern heraldry standards. It makes me want to throw up, but what is done is done.

I would like to know who you are Ground?  There are only 31 members in MT-012 and I know them all so I'm curious who you are.  Feel free to send me a message if your not comfortable to post on here.  I would love to hear your feedback about this transition.

I will send you an email!
I love our wing patch as it is, but I know how things are as far as the new heraldry push from NHQ.

Actually, the slides from the NUC meeting indicated that NHQ doesn't encourage changes to current Wing patches.  So, not sure there is a "push" from NHQ.

I seem to recall something along the lines of "Does your wing have the money to purchase the entire current Vanguard stock of patches?" if you're going to change a wing patch.  I may be wrong, however...but Vanguard isn't going to take a bath on old wing patches.  Not good business.

Jack

I was at the Uniform Brief...and that was the stated policy....before NHQ authorities a wing patch change the wing must buy up the existing stock.

If that truly is how they want the process to work, then NHQ should stated this in a policy letter/reg and published somewhere.

[PHall]

MTWG, with the help of NHQ is set to align our wing patch to modern heraldry standards. It makes me want to throw up, but what is done is done.

I would like to know who you are Ground?  There are only 31 members in MT-012 and I know them all so I'm curious who you are.  Feel free to send me a message if your not comfortable to post on here.  I would love to hear your feedback about this transition.

I will send you an email!
I love our wing patch as it is, but I know how things are as far as the new heraldry push from NHQ.

Actually, the slides from the NUC meeting indicated that NHQ doesn't encourage changes to current Wing patches.  So, not sure there is a "push" from NHQ.

I seem to recall something along the lines of "Does your wing have the money to purchase the entire current Vanguard stock of patches?" if you're going to change a wing patch.  I may be wrong, however...but Vanguard isn't going to take a bath on old wing patches.  Not good business.

Jack

I was at the Uniform Brief...and that was the stated policy....before NHQ authorities a wing patch change the wing must buy up the existing stock.

If that truly is how they want the process to work, then NHQ should stated this in a policy letter/reg and published somewhere.

It's a standard business practice. Nothing unusual about it. Nothing unusual at all.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I like the new Montana Wing crest a lot better than some of the extant crests.

I think one of the worst in terms of being overly gaudy is Indiana Wing.

[MisterCD]

The decision to revise the MTWG patch was discussed at length by the NUC and, as Col Teel noted, was instigated by MTWG and not NHQ. Generally speaking, there is a strong reluctance by NHQ and the NUC to change the wing and region insignia. Two wings, including MTWG, approached the NUC about changing their design. In both cases the rationale, cost, design, heraldic and historical aspects were discussed, not to mention the impact on the wing membership in terms of cost and identity. Col Teel has reached out to the National History Program for advice and guidance, and the wing's handling of this matter has been both professional and thorough.

[Eclipse]

the impact on the wing membership in terms of cost and identity.

The "identity" nonsense regarding wings is more detrimental then positive to the organization.

In many respects there are 52 Civil Air Patrols instead of the "one" that's purported in the brochures.
And I'm not referring to the odd uniform supp, we're talking about 52 different flavors of doing the same
job, which forces everyone to relearn everything (after the initial fighting) for just about every activity and mission.

[PHall]

the impact on the wing membership in terms of cost and identity.

The "identity" nonsense regarding wings is more detrimental then positive to the organization.

In many respects there are 52 Civil Air Patrols instead of the "one" that's purported in the brochures.
And I'm not referring to the odd uniform supp, we're talking about 52 different flavors of doing the same
job, which forces everyone to relearn everything (after the initial fighting) for just about every activity and mission.

Bob, it's pretty much that way in the Air National Guard too.  Each TAG has "their" way of doing stuff.
So it's not just a CAP "problem".

[Eclipse]

Bob, it's pretty much that way in the Air National Guard too.  Each TAG has "their" way of doing stuff.
So it's not just a CAP "problem".

I don't doubt it, but saying others do it doesn't fix the issue.

It's one thing when you're talking about which way the helmets go in a locker, or whether you salute or not,
but we're talking mission management systems, separate administrative systems, "different" GOBN rules,
nonsense like requiring nomex or not being able to drive with a trailer, etc., etc.

This kind of stuff should be decided and closed at the national level because all it does it cause
conflict and angst to no one's benefit.

[A.Member]

If that truly is how they want the process to work, then NHQ should stated this in a policy letter/reg and published somewhere.

It's a standard business practice. Nothing unusual about it. Nothing unusual at all.

Except for the fact the Wing did not directly enter into the agreement with Vanguard, National did.  Yet, the Wing will be held financially responsible for items the vendor chose to carry.  That is indeed an unusual arrangement.  If the Wing were allowed to select their own vendor, then I'd agree with you.

[Garp]

If that truly is how they want the process to work, then NHQ should stated this in a policy letter/reg and published somewhere.

It's a standard business practice. Nothing unusual about it. Nothing unusual at all.

Except for the fact the Wing did not directly enter into the agreement with Vanguard, National did.  Yet, the Wing will be held financially responsible for items the vendor chose to carry.  That is indeed an unusual arrangement.  If the Wing were allowed to select their own vendor, then I'd agree with you.

that's like arguing that regiments shouldn't have to go to the TIOH because it's got a centrally mandated fee structure. 

[Shuman 14]

If that truly is how they want the process to work, then NHQ should stated this in a policy letter/reg and published somewhere.

It's a standard business practice. Nothing unusual about it. Nothing unusual at all.

Except for the fact the Wing did not directly enter into the agreement with Vanguard, National did.  Yet, the Wing will be held financially responsible for items the vendor chose to carry.  That is indeed an unusual arrangement.  If the Wing were allowed to select their own vendor, then I'd agree with you.

that's like arguing that regiments shouldn't have to go to the TIOH because it's got a centrally mandated fee structure.

Designs have to be approved by TIOH, yes... but TIOH nor the Army require a Regiment to purchase from a single source vendor like Vanguard.

[SarDragon]

Patches like that are usually made to order in a batch, and the entire batch is purchased by the end user. The manufacturer doesn't  carry them in their stock. The manufacturer has no potential financial burden that way. The buyer carries the burden for unsold items.

[Garp]

Designs have to be approved by TIOH, yes... but TIOH nor the Army require a Regiment to purchase from a single source vendor like Vanguard.

In this case, I would point out the US Air Force requires all USAF personnel purchase uniform items from their in-house vendor: AAFES (AFI 36-2903, para 1.5.1).  How that is exercised is not always all encompassing (service coats are limited to AAFES [at least I've never seen them made available easily from another vendor] but ribbons can come from about anyone).   

And so while the USAF may not require all items to be sourced through AAFES in practice, the principle holds that they do expect purchases for the majority of the core items to come from AAFES.  Seems like CAP is doing the same thing the USAF does through an in-house vendor, just that NHQ has chosen to draw a fairly narrow circle around some items (like insignia) and less around others (like blazers and aviator shirts). 

It would seem reasonable that the cost is about $215 ($2.15*100 say) that it might cost to by out CAP's in house vendor.   Optionally, the Wing could just tell Vanguard not to make anymore and then put the new patches in after the stock is expired.  Either way, an in house vendor is a well established practice in the DOD.