Non-Prior Service to NCO? CAP Major to NCO!?

[Falling Hare]

I was surprised and pleased to discover that CAP is rebooting the NCO ranks and this has fired my interest in rejoining.

Am a former senior CAP member with about 20 years of service.  Left as a Major after a career that included serving in three wings and running programs at squadron and wing level, as well as coordinating with region staff and federal agencies.

For about seventeen years I also served in a state defense force ("state guard" or home guard).  Joined as a private and worked my way up the ranks.  My outfit was actively involved with supporting a National Guard light infantry battalion.  We worked as OPFOR light infantry, built and hoisted targets at the range, played casualties in drills, filled out undermanned squads, guarded armories, etc.  Anything and everything to support the NG.  When the state guard was disbanded I was breveted to the rank of SFC and received a letter of thanks from the AG.

Really enjoyed my service as a sergeant and would jump at the chance to go back into CAP as a staff sergeant.  The only rub is that CAP will not recognize "state" ranks.  So I am basically on the level of the average non-prior service member.

Should I go back into CAP as a SMOG and wait for the NCO program to eventually admit NPS personnel ?  Is this even likely?  Can I make inquiries through my local squadron commander up the chain of command about this?  Or could I ask for some kind of special appointment based on past CAP service? (Would hate to try this...VERY poor form)!

The National NCO Committee might want to get feedback on unique problems like this.  Hopefully, problems like this will contribute to their operational experience and help to flesh out the program in the unique environment that is CAP.   And, I can't help but be excited and impressed by their efforts.

Any suggestion would be appreciated!

[Garibaldi]

I was surprised and pleased to discover that CAP is rebooting the NCO ranks and this has fired my interest in rejoining.

Am a former senior CAP member with about 20 years of service.  Left as a Major after a career that included serving in three wings and running programs at squadron and wing level, as well as coordinating with region staff and federal agencies.

For about seventeen years I also served in a state defense force ("state guard" or home guard).  Joined as a private and worked my way up the ranks.  My outfit was actively involved with supporting a National Guard light infantry battalion.  We worked as OPFOR light infantry, built and hoisted targets at the range, played casualties in drills, filled out undermanned squads, guarded armories, etc.  Anything and everything to support the NG.  When the state guard was disbanded I was breveted to the rank of SFC and received a letter of thanks from the AG.

Really enjoyed my service as a sergeant and would jump at the chance to go back into CAP as a staff sergeant.  The only rub is that CAP will not recognize "state" ranks.  So I am basically on the level of the average non-prior service member.

Should I go back into CAP as a SMOG and wait for the NCO program to eventually admit NPS personnel ?  Is this even likely?  Can I make inquiries through my local squadron commander up the chain of command about this?  Or could I ask for some kind of special appointment based on past CAP service? (Would hate to try this...VERY poor form)!

The National NCO Committee might want to get feedback on unique problems like this.  Hopefully, problems like this will contribute to their operational experience and help to flesh out the program in the unique environment that is CAP.   And, I can't help but be excited and impressed by their efforts.

Any suggestion would be appreciated!

I'm in a boat in an adjacent lake. I am currently a major and I am willing to trade the bottle caps for stripes, but it's not happening any time soon. They are slowly rolling it out, for prior service NCOs staff sergeant and above. I forget what the next phase is, but it won't be fully implemented for a while.

[THRAWN]

CAP does not allow for the wear of state decorations, some for valor. The chances of CAP recognizing state ranks it about as good as me getting elected Miss America. Want to rejoin? Great. Nothing says you have to hold a CAP grade other than SM. Do the job and don't worry about your title.

[Garibaldi]

CAP does not allow for the wear of state decorations, some for valor. The chances of CAP recognizing state ranks it about as good as me getting elected Miss America. Want to rejoin? Great. Nothing says you have to hold a CAP grade other than SM. Do the job and don't worry about your title.

Oddly, from what I have seen, the Georgia branch allows CAP medals and some ribbons on the ADU. But no credit for any CAP PD courses, training, or experience.

[THRAWN]

Maryland will take CAP TIS, grade and position into account when determining initial entry grade. No ribbons, badges, or insignia.

[Falling Hare]

Yes it is about nostalgia for a rank I had to sweat for, but it is also about practicality and getting the mission done. 

Having been in both camps I have found that in general, people feel less intimidated by enlisted / NCO personnel.  Whether teaching a class, working with new members, on a ground team, or interacting with other agencies; people just relax more...they see you as an average "joe".

Officers are to be commended for their dedication and skill, especially in an aviation environment, but things just seems to go a little smoother in the field as an NCO.  On ground teams, everyone seemed put off or hostile (especially police) when I was wearing my gold oak leaves.  As a sergeant in the SDF people in general seemed a lot more cooperative and friendly.

I think it will help me focus on the squadron level more...I am now more interested in "serving those who serve" programs like CISM and being a NCO there would be helpful.

[lordmonar]

As of now......NO your SDF rank does not count and you cannot enter the NCO ranks.

That is going to change.   We are actively working on NCO Professional Development and once that is out and on the streets the plan is to open the NCO ranks to members who have not had AD/RES/NG service.

Unfortunately this is CAP........so we are looking 2-3 (if not more) years down the road.

Other new to report from the NCO Committee.....we are still waiting for 20-1 and 35-5 to get pushed out.   It seems that they got caught up in the "no new regs" moratorium but we are working to get them released ASAP.

Word has it that 20-1 is getting split into a reg and a pamphlet with the duty descriptions in the pamphlet part.  I don't know what the numbering is going to be.

On the 35-5 front.....the normal promotion process for NCOs is finalized.  We are still running the CAP Officer to CAP NCO conversion process through the various staff offices for coordination.

[capmaj]

Lordmonar.............  If/when all this is actually initiated, how would a prior service E-5 be affected 'grade-wise' if he or she currently has their Level 5 complete? Would folks still retain just their grade as it was at time of discharge or would that grade be affected by their level, i.e. Wilson? 

[lordmonar]

This is what was being sent up the staff.

Option 2 was the one the committee recommended.

Note that it is draft and may not be approved or it may be approved with modifications.

[lordmonar]

Lordmonar.............  If/when all this is actually initiated, how would a prior service E-5 be affected 'grade-wise' if he or she currently has their Level 5 complete? Would folks still retain just their grade as it was at time of discharge or would that grade be affected by their level, i.e. Wilson?

No....their CAP officer rank, Time in CAP and PD Level will be considered.

A former SSgt (E-5) with Level V and 10 yeas TIS could be appointed to SMSgt.  If the matrix is approved.

[Falling Hare]

Lordmonar,

Actually things seem to be moving along quite quickly by CAP standards.

Unlike the regular service, SDFs vary widely from state to state in training, size and mission.  There is no consistent system of training or organization, which is too bad because a few states have truly excellent organizations that contribute very much to the NG.

The grid that you have put together looks good.  Trying to put together something like this for non-prior service folk in CAP will probably be a real headache though. 

This will really restore some balance and tradition to the entire rank structure.  My compliment to you and the National Committee.  CAP has needed this for a long time!

[TSgt Kemp]

I just transitioned into the new NCO structure.  It was more of a process than we thought it would be.  My squadron commander finally got it through by submitting a CAPF 2 reverting me to my rank of SSgt (my former Air Force rank) and a second promoting me to tech base on my ten years TIS as a staff and completion of Level 2.

Now I need to sew on the new stripes...

Someone check me on this:  As I read CAPM 39-1, we no longer wear the CAP cutouts if we wear the CAP stripes.  True?

[PHall]

I just transitioned into the new NCO structure.  It was more of a process than we thought it would be.  My squadron commander finally got it through by submitting a CAPF 2 reverting me to my rank of SSgt (my former Air Force rank) and a second promoting me to tech base on my ten years TIS as a staff and completion of Level 2.

Now I need to sew on the new stripes...

Someone check me on this:  As I read CAPM 39-1, we no longer wear the CAP cutouts if we wear the CAP stripes.  True?

The "new" stripes have CAP on them already, so cutouts on the collar are no longer required.

[lordmonar]

I just transitioned into the new NCO structure.  It was more of a process than we thought it would be.  My squadron commander finally got it through by submitting a CAPF 2 reverting me to my rank of SSgt (my former Air Force rank) and a second promoting me to tech base on my ten years TIS as a staff and completion of Level 2.

Now I need to sew on the new stripes...

Someone check me on this:  As I read CAPM 39-1, we no longer wear the CAP cutouts if we wear the CAP stripes.  True?

true.  We wear the U.S. With circles on the service coat.  The Enlisted flight cap with SM badge and stripes with the CAP on them. 

[Falling Hare]

Have just joined and have been too busy to follow what is happening with the new NCO program. 

I think the new CAP-distinctive stripes look great... and congrats to those who are finally able to sew them on!

It will probably be years down the road, but I it will be interesting to see how CAP will develop the program to deal with non-prior service people who
wish to enter the NCO program.  Would love to have my prior-CAP service count toward this. Do keep us  informed.

(Besides, it's getting really lonely out here in SMOGdom)!

[Flying Pig]

Still waiting to hear anything on how having an NCO and officer categories will actually change what anyone does in CAP?  It will always fall to who is willing and able.

[Holding Pattern]

Still waiting to hear anything on how having an NCO and officer categories will actually change what anyone does in CAP?  It will always fall to who is willing and able.

Gee, I'm not sure how having someone with long term experience in a squadron that never gets foisted into a command slot would work. We might have to look to see if anyone has ever done anything like this before! Hopefully we don't lose our Shirt over this...

[goblin]

Still waiting to hear anything on how having an NCO and officer categories will actually change what anyone does in CAP?  It will always fall to who is willing and able.

Gee, I'm not sure how having someone with long term experience in a squadron that never gets foisted into a command slot would work. We might have to look to see if anyone has ever done anything like this before! Hopefully we don't lose our Shirt over this...

I think that's entirely possible with or without CAP NCOs

[AirAux]

Georgia Branch took me as a legal officer with my CAP rank of Major.  Didn't seem to be much of an organization.  Had field grade officer picking up cigarette butts in the local area on police call.  Never really did anything exciting or worthwhile.  Got tired of setting on my butt 16 hours on the weekend..

[Holding Pattern]

Still waiting to hear anything on how having an NCO and officer categories will actually change what anyone does in CAP?  It will always fall to who is willing and able.

Gee, I'm not sure how having someone with long term experience in a squadron that never gets foisted into a command slot would work. We might have to look to see if anyone has ever done anything like this before! Hopefully we don't lose our Shirt over this...

I think that's entirely possible with or without CAP NCOs

Possible? Yes. Probable? Unlikely. There is some appeal to just being an NCO that doesn't get bothered with UCC and TLC and SLS and SOS and RSC and NSC, just focusing instead on Cadet Programs, AEX, and/or ES.

Or have you never seen upper echelon pressure to rotate people into commander slots?

[Storm Chaser]

I'm not opposed to having CAP NCOs or even providing them with a way to get promoted. But I can't help to feel the way this program has been approached and it's being implemented is more like a solution in search for a problem.

We've created NCO positions with no significant duties or responsibilities, at least none that other current members can't do. We're revamping the Professional Development program for a small sector of the membership which gets to do everything the larger, officer sector does (again, no restrictions on duty assignment except for command). And now we're providing CAP officers with an enticing way to revert to a higher CAP NCO grade for no other reason than increasing the otherwise small number of current CAP NCOs. What are these members going to do that is different from what they were already doing?

I really hope any transfer from CAP officer to CAP NCO is a one time deal. I can already see members going back and forward depending on how the feel at the time and using the opposite track (Officer vs. NCO) PD and experience to justify higher grades on the one they want to pursue at the time. That contributes nothing to the mission, programs, or organization as a whole.

[THRAWN]

Still waiting to hear anything on how having an NCO and officer categories will actually change what anyone does in CAP?  It will always fall to who is willing and able.

Gee, I'm not sure how having someone with long term experience in a squadron that never gets foisted into a command slot would work. We might have to look to see if anyone has ever done anything like this before! Hopefully we don't lose our Shirt over this...

I think that's entirely possible with or without CAP NCOs

Possible? Yes. Probable? Unlikely. There is some appeal to just being an NCO that doesn't get bothered with UCC and TLC and SLS and SOS and RSC and NSC, just focusing instead on Cadet Programs, AEX, and/or ES.

Or have you never seen upper echelon pressure to rotate people into commander slots?

Nothing says you have to do all of that now. I know plenty of members that have been plenty successful and have done nothing more than Level 1.

[NCRblues]

Still waiting to hear anything on how having an NCO and officer categories will actually change what anyone does in CAP?  It will always fall to who is willing and able.

Gee, I'm not sure how having someone with long term experience in a squadron that never gets foisted into a command slot would work. We might have to look to see if anyone has ever done anything like this before! Hopefully we don't lose our Shirt over this...

I think that's entirely possible with or without CAP NCOs

Possible? Yes. Probable? Unlikely. There is some appeal to just being an NCO that doesn't get bothered with UCC and TLC and SLS and SOS and RSC and NSC, just focusing instead on Cadet Programs, AEX, and/or ES.

Or have you never seen upper echelon pressure to rotate people into commander slots?

This post makes no sense.

Why would being a CAP NCO prevent you from "being bothered" by very educational courses? Other than UCC, all of those courses I feel are important in the basic grasping and principles of CAP.

In my unit, want to play CP officer/NCO? Great, the next TLC course is being held at XYZ.

An officer or NCO who is so pompous as to think continuing education isn't necessary is not a leader at all.

[Holding Pattern]

Still waiting to hear anything on how having an NCO and officer categories will actually change what anyone does in CAP?  It will always fall to who is willing and able.

Gee, I'm not sure how having someone with long term experience in a squadron that never gets foisted into a command slot would work. We might have to look to see if anyone has ever done anything like this before! Hopefully we don't lose our Shirt over this...

I think that's entirely possible with or without CAP NCOs

Possible? Yes. Probable? Unlikely. There is some appeal to just being an NCO that doesn't get bothered with UCC and TLC and SLS and SOS and RSC and NSC, just focusing instead on Cadet Programs, AEX, and/or ES.

Or have you never seen upper echelon pressure to rotate people into commander slots?

This post makes no sense.

Why would being a CAP NCO prevent you from "being bothered" by very educational courses? Other than UCC, all of those courses I feel are important in the basic grasping and principles of CAP.

In my unit, want to play CP officer/NCO? Great, the next TLC course is being held at XYZ.

An officer or NCO who is so pompous as to think continuing education isn't necessary is not a leader at all.

You'll note that there are plenty of other things that can be taught and are taught that I didn't mention in that list... because the things I didn't mention have the virtue of being available locally to me and directly applicable to me.

But if you really want to misread that statement as a declaration of not needing CE... well... RANT TIME!

Every TLC and SLS course in my area has been set on a date that has coincided with a cyberpatriot activity day or competition day. Work with cadets, or be "bothered" with "very educational" courses... that are available... just not in my county...

Let me know when they are all online and not stigmatized for being such. CAPTALK has worked long and hard at convincing me that CAP grades mean nothing besides your PD status, and while I'm sure there will be useful tidbits of information at each of those events, the honest truth is that if there is something so earth shatteringly important that will make me a better CAP member, they should probably publish it and hand me a copy in some form of widely disseminated media. OBC is completely online. The Yaeger study materials and test are completely online. 80% of the reg required FEMA courses are online, and as it turns out, the offline ones are... actually available locally once you inquire!

You want me to be motivated to take more PD courses? OK. Make them available.
(And yes, I've already voiced my concerns on this to my chain of command.) 

In the meantime, I'll get my ops quals signed off and take every educational course available to me. And that is my definition of available, not what some higher echelon thinks is "available."

[Spaceman3750]

Still waiting to hear anything on how having an NCO and officer categories will actually change what anyone does in CAP?  It will always fall to who is willing and able.

Gee, I'm not sure how having someone with long term experience in a squadron that never gets foisted into a command slot would work. We might have to look to see if anyone has ever done anything like this before! Hopefully we don't lose our Shirt over this...

I think that's entirely possible with or without CAP NCOs

Possible? Yes. Probable? Unlikely. There is some appeal to just being an NCO that doesn't get bothered with UCC and TLC and SLS and SOS and RSC and NSC, just focusing instead on Cadet Programs, AEX, and/or ES.

Or have you never seen upper echelon pressure to rotate people into commander slots?

The goal of those courses, whether realized or not, is to help members do their jobs. I don't see why an NCO would not benefit from such information just because they have a different patch on their sleeves. CAP already does a horrible job at teaching people how to do their jobs and implement CAP programs (CP excluded - the provided materials are pretty awesome). Excluding an entire group from what little training we do get is only a recipe for further failure.

Whether or not those courses meet that goal, and are actually useful in the field, is another issue.

EDIT: Corrected logic issue.

[goblin]

They are also looking for folks to be group/wing/region "command Chiefs" so upward and outward is still a thing.

If you want "command", go for it. It's just as easy to never leave the squadron and focus on cadets/ES. Dealer's choice really.

[Holding Pattern]

Still waiting to hear anything on how having an NCO and officer categories will actually change what anyone does in CAP?  It will always fall to who is willing and able.

Gee, I'm not sure how having someone with long term experience in a squadron that never gets foisted into a command slot would work. We might have to look to see if anyone has ever done anything like this before! Hopefully we don't lose our Shirt over this...

I think that's entirely possible with or without CAP NCOs

Possible? Yes. Probable? Unlikely. There is some appeal to just being an NCO that doesn't get bothered with UCC and TLC and SLS and SOS and RSC and NSC, just focusing instead on Cadet Programs, AEX, and/or ES.

Or have you never seen upper echelon pressure to rotate people into commander slots?

The goal of those courses, whether realized or not, is to help members do their jobs. I don't see why an NCO would not benefit from such information just because they have a different patch on their sleeves. CAP already does a horrible job at teaching people how to do their jobs and implement CAP programs (CP excluded - the provided materials are pretty awesome). Excluding an entire group from what little training we do get is only a recipe for further failure.

Whether or not those courses meet that goal, and are actually useful in the field, is another issue.

EDIT: Corrected logic issue.

I didn't say they wouldn't need it. I did mention a lack of requirement.

[Flying Pig]

I was a 1Lt for most of my 10+yrs as a senior.  I finally made Capt because I was the Sq. Commander.  Rank never prevented me from doing anything in CAP short of maybe being a Grp Commander or higher.  Although thats not something I was ever interested in.

[goblin]

I was a 1Lt for most of my 10+yrs as a senior.  I finally made Capt because I was the Sq. Commander.  Rank never prevented me from doing anything in CAP short of maybe being a Grp Commander or higher.  Although thats not something I was ever interested in.

This. Rank is meaningless unless your goal is to move up the chain.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

This. Rank is meaningless unless your goal is to move up the chain.

The last time I rejoined ('09), I virtually insisted on starting over as a SMWOG and climbing the ladder all over again, because it had been so long (1990s) that I'd had SLS, CLC, ECI-13 etc that it was almost meaningless.  However, my then-CC was a kindhearted lady (who later got forced out of CAP because of GOB/GN politics) who insisted that since I had been a Captain, I should be one again.  It ended up hurting me in the long run.

For the record, I tried taking OBC (ECI-13 equivalent) online again and the system wouldn't let me, since I had already had it.

If I were EVER to try to rejoin CAP (and pigs might fly out of my...) I would insist on wearing stripes.  I had enough of the politics/pissing contests as to who was "worthy" of officer grade promotion and who wasn't.

[Flying Pig]

What politics are involved with CAP promotions?

[jeders]

What politics are involved with CAP promotions?

The "I don't know you/you're not part of my GOBN" politics. Been there, done that, got the delayed promotion request.

[Flying Pig]

Hmmmmm.....  Thats funny.  Some people play CAP way to serious in some areas and not at all in other areas.  Still one of the reasons I go back and forth about rejoining.  I never dealt with any politics in regards to ranks but probably because I was to busy in other areas.  Although I would be pretty torqued if some yahoo blocked me once I finished my requirements.  But with the NCO program, is that going to be guaranteed to be void of "politics"?  Or do only officers do politics?   Maybe the NCOs get promoted by who can power down a Monster the fastest?

[lordmonar]

Yes and no.

At the squadron level the promotion authority is up to MSgt.  The "politics" involved will be that only one TSgt can get promoted to MSgt at a time. 

For the higher ranks....it is getting selected for the few promotable slots that will generate the most "well they picked him because he is part of the GOBN" complaints.

We are never going to get away from office politics......that is just the nature of people.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

What politics are involved with CAP promotions?

Surely you jest...

Although I would be pretty torqued if some yahoo blocked me once I finished my requirements.

I had them finished, and then some...new CC didn't like me (told me verbally he was looking for someone special to promote and I wasn't it), blocked it because I wasn't there every week due to health issues (mine and my wife's), and because he was all-ES, all the time and I wasn't.  Previous CC would have forwarded it.

I kept my Safety currency up online (it never lapsed) and did courses online...CC said that was just "self-aggrandisement" and did not contribute toward the efficiency of the unit.

So, yes, I was fairly torqued.  I had left CAP before but never with such openly bad blood.  Of course, CC is a mission pilot and part of the Wing GOBN.  Probably will end up as Wing, or at least Group, Commander down the road.

I would rather have a system where there are only a limited amount of slots for someone to be promoted than to be told that I qualify, but wasn't worthy.

There are office politics in any organisation, but it is stronger in CAP than many actual paying jobs I've held.

That is a huge thing that drives people - not just me - away from this organisation; I've talked to others personally who have undergone it to lesser and greater extent.

I never noticed it to this extent in the CGAux, probably because the CG has a lot more oversight than the AF cares to have over CAP...with CAP, it seems to be "as long as they can't be mistaken for us in uniform, they can do pretty much what they want."  Hyperbolic, but makes the point.

[Storm Chaser]

If the level of contribution of a member is not commensurable with the grade being sought, then a commander has no obligation to promote him or her. CAPR 35-5, Para. 2-1a(4), states:

2-1. Eligibility Requirements.
a. General Requirements. To be considered for this type promotion, the member must:
(1) Be at least 21 years of age.
(2) Be a high school graduate (or educational equivalent).
(3) Complete Level I of the Professional Development Program.
(4) Be performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion to the grade recommended. (emphasis mine)
(5) Be recommended by immediate superior and unit commander.

A member who is not "performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion to the grade recommended" will most like not get promoted. This is especially true for field grades, as those have to go to wing for approval.

If a member feels they meet the basic criteria and have been performing and contributing at that level, yet their unit commander does not want to process the promotion request, then the member can use the chain of command to include going to the group, wing, and region commanders, if needed, for reconsideration. But in the end, if none of them want to promote the member, then perhaps the member doesn't really meet the necessary criteria.

(edited for grammar)

[lordmonar]

If the level of contribution of a member is not commensurable with the grade being sought, then a commander has no obligation to promote him or her. CAPR 35-5, Para. 2-1a(4), states:

2-1. Eligibility Requirements.
a. General Requirements. To be considered for this type promotion, the member must:
(1) Be at least 21 years of age.
(2) Be a high school graduate (or educational equivalent).
(3) Complete Level I of the Professional Development Program.
(4) Be performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion to the grade recommended. (emphasis mine)
(5) Be recommended by immediate superior and unit commander.

A member who is not "performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion to the grade recommended" will most like not get promoted. This is especially true for field grades, as those have to go to wing for approval.

If a member feels they meet not only the basic criteria, but have been performing and contributing at that level, yet their unit commander does not want to process the promotion request, the member can use the chain of command to include going to the group, wing, and region commanders, if needed. But in the end, if none of them want to promote the member, then perhaps the member doesn't really meet that criteria.

Oh.....don't get him started.

[Storm Chaser]

If the level of contribution of a member is not commensurable with the grade being sought, then a commander has no obligation to promote him or her. CAPR 35-5, Para. 2-1a(4), states:

2-1. Eligibility Requirements.
a. General Requirements. To be considered for this type promotion, the member must:
(1) Be at least 21 years of age.
(2) Be a high school graduate (or educational equivalent).
(3) Complete Level I of the Professional Development Program.
(4) Be performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion to the grade recommended. (emphasis mine)
(5) Be recommended by immediate superior and unit commander.

A member who is not "performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion to the grade recommended" will most like not get promoted. This is especially true for field grades, as those have to go to wing for approval.

If a member feels they meet the basic criteria and have been performing and contributing at that level, yet their unit commander does not want to process the promotion request, then the member can use the chain of command to include going to the group, wing, and region commanders, if needed, for reconsideration. But in the end, if none of them want to promote the member, then perhaps the member doesn't really meet the necessary criteria.

(edited for grammar)

Oh.....don't get him started.

Right. My bad.

[Storm Chaser]

Created duplicate post. Please delete.

[SMWOG]

Putting on stripes is not going to change your views on CAP. There are two types of NCO's and Officer's,productive and non productive.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Putting on stripes is not going to change your views on CAP. There are two types of NCO's and Officer's,productive and non productive.

Define "productive" and "non-productive" objectively, without bringing your own personal standards of what those terms mean...and whether you like the person being judged or not.

That is dangerously close to the Ayn Randian (a person whose philosophies I loathe, detest and hold in contempt) concept of "makers" and "takers."

Eye of the beholder...and commensurate with a member's life circumstances, and open to interpretation on what is "productive" and what is not.  Subjectivity v. objectivity.

A young person in good health is going to, in most circumstances, be more "productive" (openly active) than an older person whose health has declined.

"Productive" can also mean behind-the-scenes.

In my case, I must have done something right as I have a drawer full of Certificates of Appreciation, Letters of Commendation, etc.

Storm Chaser knows [darn] good and well that I tried taking mine up the chain...and didn't even get an answer from the Group CC.

I asked why I "didn't meet necessary criteria."  It came down to one thing: attendance.

To just quote 35-5 and put one's own definition on things is falling into the logical fallacy of the single cause/false dilemma/spurious relationship.

But I'm not just talking about me.  I personally know a lot of other well-qualified people that were denied recognition/advancement based on personal likes and dislikes.

"Exemplary" can have a lot of different facets to it.  To just give it one definition is fallacious.  Would one evaluate someone with a pacemaker in CAP as non-productive because they were physically unable to go on GT missions?  I personally knew one in CAP...who is dead now, but who did not "slip through the cracks" based on a CC's subjective idea of "productivity."

I know that it is not possible for humans to be entirely objective, but I have been in similar positions in private business and other situations in CAP where I had to evaluate people (I spent several years as an IT manager in a university setting, and one of my duties was to evaluate our student assistants).  I did try my level best to just look at what was on paper before me and act on that.  I never tore anyone down.

If that's "getting him started," so be it.  No apologies.  It is equally illogical to say that the regs work all the time, just because they work for some and not for others, based on interpretation.

The only thing I haven't done is name names, because of libel issues, and because it would be "unproductive."

There are grey areas in life, which some in CAP do not seem to acknowledge.

[SMWOG]

Productive: Comes to unit meeting supporting missons onbjectives and goals.

Non-Productive: Comes to unit meeting and complains about mission and. wants to turn orginization. into something that is not based on their personal.feelings.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Productive: Comes to unit meeting supporting missons onbjectives and goals.

Non-Productive: Comes to unit meeting and complains about mission and. wants to turn orginization. into something that is not based on their personal.feelings.

Still a bit too black-and-white...but when I was able, I came to meetings and did my job as Admin Officer, Safety Officer, and former Deputy CC back in the mists of time as best I could, within my limitations.  I did so for almost 20 years.  In fact, I rarely verbalised anything unless I felt like I was copping the shaft and/or had my back to the wall, which happened a lot less than you may think.

At meetings I did a lot more listening and copious note-taking than talking, unless my opinion was asked.

No, I was not able to come to every weekly meeting and/or unit weekend activity, but I only once in my recollection missed without calling in, and that was when I had to take my wife to the ER.

I must have done something right to have got a CommComm and the aforementioned drawerfull of Certificates of Appreciation.

[kwe1009]

Productive: Comes to unit meeting supporting missons onbjectives and goals.

Non-Productive: Comes to unit meeting and complains about mission and. wants to turn orginization. into something that is not based on their personal.feelings.

Sounds about right to me.

Productive: part of the solution.  Looks for ways to help/improve the situation

Non-Productive: part of the problem.  Complains they way things are done is wrong, never tries to fix anything.  Throws their CAP rank around like it is just as important/valuable as military rank.

[JeffDG]

"Exemplary" can have a lot of different facets to it.  To just give it one definition is fallacious.  Would one evaluate someone with a pacemaker in CAP as non-productive because they were physically unable to go on GT missions?  I personally knew one in CAP...who is dead now, but who did not "slip through the cracks" based on a CC's subjective idea of "productivity."
...
There are grey areas in life, which some in CAP do not seem to acknowledge.

No, people do acknowledge it.  These kinds of grey areas are intentional, and in the grey areas lives a concept called "command discretion".  Just because you disagree with how it was exercised doesn't make it wrong.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

No, people do acknowledge it.  These kinds of grey areas are intentional, and in the grey areas lives a concept called "command discretion".  Just because you disagree with how it was exercised doesn't make it wrong.

If "command discretion" includes insulting a member openly, then it is not very discretionary.  To borrow an overused phrase, "if you weren't there you won't understand."

Productive: part of the solution.  Looks for ways to help/improve the situation

IF your suggestions to help the situation are not listened to...what then?

Non-Productive: part of the problem.  Complains they way things are done is wrong, never tries to fix anything.  Throws their CAP rank around like it is just as important/valuable as military rank.

I was IN the RealMilitary and know good and well the rank is not the same.  If you think I threw my rank around, you obviously have not read previous posts where I said I was often embarrassed to go on military installations because I did not want military personnel to think I was "trolling for salutes" as so many apocryphal stories about CAP have circulated about.

If I thought rank was the be-all and end-all, I would not have suggested that I rejoin as an SMWOG and work my way up the ladder again.  I would not offer to rejoin as an SMWOG and insist on being in whatever enlisted/NCO tier eventually hashes out.

I had served my TIG, I had all my qualifications and I thought my performance was doing well within the life circumstances I had.  My former-former commander thought so as well and said he would have sent my promotion up the chain.  However, we had a mandatory change of command and the new guy didn't like me before he was commander, and liked me no less after acceding to the post of CC.

Again, if you weren't there...

How difficult is it to admit that sometimes the system just does not work and is not infallible, and all the "suggestions on how to improve things" just will not change a thing?

Whether anyone wishes to admit it or not, sometimes personalities do come into play, and not all commanders have the best welfare of their charges in mind.

[PHall]

Cyborg, you've been in CAP three times and all three times have ended badly.
You ever think that CAP and you are just not a match?

[kwe1009]

Productive: part of the solution.  Looks for ways to help/improve the situation

IF your suggestions to help the situation are not listened to...what then?

Non-Productive: part of the problem.  Complains they way things are done is wrong, never tries to fix anything.  Throws their CAP rank around like it is just as important/valuable as military rank.

I was IN the RealMilitary and know good and well the rank is not the same.  If you think I threw my rank around, you obviously have not read previous posts where I said I was often embarrassed to go on military installations because I did not want military personnel to think I was "trolling for salutes" as so many apocryphal stories about CAP have circulated about.

If I thought rank was the be-all and end-all, I would not have suggested that I rejoin as an SMWOG and work my way up the ladder again.  I would not offer to rejoin as an SMWOG and insist on being in whatever enlisted/NCO tier eventually hashes out.

I had served my TIG, I had all my qualifications and I thought my performance was doing well within the life circumstances I had.  My former-former commander thought so as well and said he would have sent my promotion up the chain.  However, we had a mandatory change of command and the new guy didn't like me before he was commander, and liked me no less after acceding to the post of CC.

Again, if you weren't there...

How difficult is it to admit that sometimes the system just does not work and is not infallible, and all the "suggestions on how to improve things" just will not change a thing?

Whether anyone wishes to admit it or not, sometimes personalities do come into play, and not all commanders have the best welfare of their charges in mind.

Good for you being in the REAL MILITARY as you put it.  I am still in the military (28 years and counting) but that has zero impact on what I was talking about.  I wasn't aiming my comment at you or anyone else.  I was simply giving my view of what productive and non-productive member is.  I also never even hinted that the system always works.  In fact it doesn't always work for various reasons.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Cyborg, you've been in CAP three times and all three times have ended badly.
You ever think that CAP and you are just not a match?

If I hadn't spent six years' in my absolutely-wonderful first squadron, where I was welcomed from Day One, ascended from SMWOG to Captain (and Deputy Commander) with virtually no trouble, ended up with an almost Riker/Picard relationship with my last CC there (also out of CAP now, from my last recollection), had excellent relationships with the previous two CC's, helped him rebuild the unit from a near-disbandment to a solid composite squadron, with a close association with an AFROTC unit at a nearby major university, appointed to ad hoc positions at Wing functions (commanded flightline safety at one airshow, commanded Wing Ops at another), and was given a going-away party when I finally left (only left because of marriage and a move...otherwise I'd still be there, probably), then, yes, I may have thought exactly that.  If I'd had the experience at other subsequent units at my first unit, I never would have joined.  My "we-don't-want-you-here" detector is pretty good - not infallible, but good.  I've relied on it many times to turn down job offers in potentially unhealthy situations, and to leave jobs where I sensed things were going badly.  I haven't always been right, but I have a fairly decent track record.

One thing I learned early on in life, long before CAP, is that if I don't fight for myself, no-one will.

I suppose the mistake I have made regarding CAP the last time I rejoined was to listen to a member and her cadet daughter that I ran into in a bookshop back in '09 who told me that someone with my experience was "really needed" and was very persuasive about it.  I suppose I should have said "thank you for the kind words, but I'm sorry...past experience has proven to me that no, I am not needed or wanted by CAP."  I still had a warm spot for CAP in my heart that this lady and her daughter rekindled...my mistake.

Good for you being in the REAL MILITARY as you put it.  I am still in the military (28 years and counting) but that has zero impact on what I was talking about.  I wasn't aiming my comment at you or anyone else.  I was simply giving my view of what productive and non-productive member is.  I also never even hinted that the system always works.  In fact it doesn't always work for various reasons.

And thank you for your service.  I wish I could have continued mine, but my body had other ideas.

I sincerely apologise for taking you the wrong way.  It is my error, and I own up to it.  I hope you continue your service to CAP without the negative experiences I and others have had.  Godspeed.

[Storm Chaser]

Cyborg, I think one of your problems is that you cling too much to the past. We know all about your almost perfect first squadron (which by the way was probably too small to meet the criteria of a truly successful squadron) and all your subsequent negative experiences, which led you to leave CAP three times. We know the stories because you've told them again and again. It's almost like you want to torture yourself about what you had and couldn't have anymore.

Promotions are not a reward for past performance. That's why we have awards. Promotions are meant to recognize the potential for increased responsibilities based on past and current performance, training, education, experience, skills, and leadership. They should take into account what you've done in the past, what you're doing now, and what you're capable of doing in the future. If you're unable to perform or contribute beyond attending some meetings, odds are no commander is going to recommend you for promotion. The bottom line is you either are "performing in an exemplary manner meriting promotion to the grade recommended" (emphasis mine) IAW CAPR 35-5, Para. 2-1a(4), or you're not.

And even if you were unlucky enough to have "terrible" squadron commanders who didn't treated you well, you had venues and opportunities to resolve that and chose to quit instead (yes, I know you contacted the group commander, but did you go to the wing commander or higher?). Now, you're done. You're not a member anymore. You need to let it go. How can you be happy if you keep dwelling in the past? Just let it go and move on. Find a hobby or another organization where you can feel accepted and useful; where you can truly make an impact. It doesn't seem CAP is for you. Best of lucks.

[kwe1009]

If you are a member of any organization and are completely happy for even 6 months or more then consider yourself lucky.  There have been many times in my Air Force career that I wanted to walk away because I was tired of the political B.S. and favoritism that existed.  I didn't walk away and it is still there (maybe even more than 10-15 years ago).  We are all human and thus not perfect and prone to make mistakes.  The key it to accept that and work to make things better for everyone with whatever authority you may have in your current position while not poisoning your chance for getting increased authority.  This was a hard lesson for me to learn and stunted my progression within the USAF for a number of years. 

There have been times when I wanted to walk away from CAP because of the way I was treated or how I saw others being treated.  Instead of spending a great deal of time being disruptive or just walking away, I chose to stay the course and work to make changes for the betterment of all.  Unfortunately this also means biting my tongue quite a bit as to not fall out of favor with the current leadership.  A worker bee doesn't have a lot of power to make changes so I need to put in my time and make suggestions to leadership to help steer them in the right direction until it is my turn to steer the ship.  Remember, slow and steady wins the race.

[Holding Pattern]

Alternatively, you could... charter a new squadron...

[SMWOG]

You will never make your current unit great if you keep comparing it to your last one. Secure a great future by living today and not in the past.  Wanting to be reduced in grade and start over is not the answer or control alternate delete for CAP. Retaking. the OBC is not going to change your prespective of the orginization. Reassessing. your irrelevance. to the mission will. I have known many people to leave CAP because they out grew the orginization or the orginization out grew them.  I left
CAP for a few years due to personal issues(loss of home after disaster). My experince left me bitter and angry so I left so that I was not a negative impact on the mission focous. Just remember,CAP is not for everyone. and its ok to leave to take care of number 1._

[Holding Pattern]

I also think I mentioned this before... but the OBC is all available online without login. The only thing logging in would do is let you take the quizzes.