Prior Service Army Infantry looking for Info on joining CAP

[joed99]

Hello. Joe here, former Army Infantry team leader (cpl/e-4) looking for info on Joining Massachusetts CAP. I have already contacted a unit and still waiting to hear back. What I am trying to figure out are (1) What rank would I be. I am at college using my gi bill and have 90 credits as of today.  (2) As far as Army awards, would I be allowed to wear combat awards such as the Combat Infantry Badge, the Ranger tab and other awards. I am not trying to create a look at me uniform, but I want to wear a uniform again but can not get back the regular military or NG  due to medical issues from a medical discharge. Thanks for the info and have a great new year

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I am in the same boat in terms of wanting to be AD. I was INF same rank, out on medical and still want to serve.

I have found CAP to be exactly what I love to this day. Just keep in mind that the uniform is not the same as an Army uniform. You can only wear two of your badges and no matter what, you can't wear your Ranger tab. I have CIB and AASLT, now I am CAP Ground Team, and so I took off my AASLT wings for my GT badge. So if wearing your bling is that big of an issue, then CAP might not be for you. However if you are looking to serve, CAP is a great place to do it.

Being enlisted Army won't give you an advanced rank unless you are an E-5, and then you can come to CAP and keep wearing E-5 USAF stripes. However SPC/CPL won't get you any up in rank, but don't worry. CAP values your experience and devotion and your contribution more than your rank. Yes, you have to have certain grades to do certain things, but you will get there with time.

[joed99]

Thanks for the info. As far as bling, its not that a big deal. I just want to serve again. I was looking at the ground team info online, and that was what I was looking to get into. So when I join, which I have pretty much made up my mind, will I be a senior member? Thanks for the info

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Yes, you will be a Senior Member.
Your knowledge will be rather valuable. A lot of people think that the INF is all kill kill kill. You and I know that to not be the case. We are rather proficient in medical field aid, we know how to track and we can adapt and overcome many obstacles, not to mention we already know the military ways, D&C C&C and how to follow orders and do what we need to do to accomplish the mission. I think you will enjoy CAP and Ground Ops, and I think CAP can benefit from your knowledge. Just don't let what you have done in the military flood your head, CAP is a different beast.

[RADIOMAN015]

CIVIL Air Patrol is just what it is, a bunch of civilians acting in the role of the AF auxiliary, it is NOT the military.  As a senior member you will have to be indoctrinated into the proper way of acting in a civilian organization and what uniforms you can wear & what can be worn on those uniforms.   CAP at this time performs "non combat" missions for the USAF and other agencies.

Of what I known about the MA wing, there's virtually NO ground team missions at this point, other than an occasional UDF.   HOWEVER, the wing has some very dedicated personnel who run a ground team training program, primarily for cadets with some senior members also participating.

Again, the key thing to remember is that you ARE NOT in the military any more and when dealing with other adults you will have to persuade them to your way of thinking.  Good luck
RM

[JohnKachenmeister]

Initially, you will be a "Senior Member Without Grade" or SMWOG.  SM for short.

After 6 months and completion of training level 1 you will be promoted to 2nd Lt.  Please note that we don't use the Army standard 3-character rank abbreviations, so you won't be a 2LT.

You can wear all of your award ribbons.  You can wear the CIB.  You can't wear the Ranger tab and you can't wear your shooting awards. 

As an infantryman, you will be in demand as a Ground Team member and subsequently a Ground Team leader.  Leading a GT is just like leading a squad.  Equipment check, land nav., "Send up the count," and if you find a crashed airplane, establishing a perimeter and checkpoints to secure the site.

Among the things you will have to learn is that whenever there's a mission, the first thing we do is throw unit integrity out the door.  We create a task force under an "Incident Commander" to work the mission.  This made no sense to me until I was in for a while and came to realize that with an all-volunteer force that we have it is the best way to work.  We never know who is available and sober at the moment when a mission happens.

And... Welcome to the family.

Also... don't listen to Radioman15.  He's a Communist.

[joed99]

Thanks alot for this info. As I am doing more research I am finding that certain military courses count such as medical courses. Since these courses are listed on my DD-214 will they be counted. I attended Army WLC Warrior Leader course, Level 1 of NCO Academy. Are other courses counted for credit in regards to training? IE I went to SDM school, ( light sniper) and we were graded in land nav, communications, observation and more. I know I am asking alot of questions, just want to learn as much as I can. Thank you

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Really nothing combat related (shooting and the like) will count for anything. Show your leadership that you have the land nav training and such and they will work to get your qualifications as quickly as possible because of you being such a ground asset.

[MIKE]

I am a former MAWGer.  Unfortunately RADIOMAN015 seems about right on the Emergency Services activity of the wing of late.  About all I can say is get in touch with your local unit and go to a few meetings and see what they are really about... if you are in a part of the state where you have a few units you could choose from... shop around a little before you pick the one that best suits you.

[SABRE17]

As a current MAWG cadet, my unit was tasked with two EPIRB missions just in 2010. and we have a great SAR school in its first year that will be around for many many more. there are plenty of training opportunities in the wing, and the wing just got an MOU with the state that puts on the same board as the state police, MEMA and other agencies, so i see more missions in 2011.

what unit were you in contact with Joe?

[SARDOC]

Initially, you will be a "Senior Member Without Grade" or SMWOG.  SM for short.

After 6 months and completion of training level 1 you will be promoted to 2nd Lt.  Please note that we don't use the Army standard 3-character rank abbreviations, so you won't be a 2LT.

Yeah we use the USAF Abbreviation for Second Lieutenant "2d Lt."   

[joed99]

I was looking at the Plymouth unit. As far as uniforms go if I wear bdu's, this means I have to go by AF standards corrects ( just like army 670-1) meaning I have to be fully clean shaven. Thats not an issue. As far as the bdu's. are they the general issue BDU's? I have like 6 sets, 3 never used thanks to getting the ACU's. If they are one in the same, looks like I will only need nametapes. Just another question. Since I am so close to finishing school, 90 credits on double degree, is there any advancement options due to college credits just like active duty going to OCS with 90 credits?

[ol'fido]

No, there is no credit for college work in your senior member PD. If you had attended senior NCO academies(FSA  or SMA), they can be substituted for some of the PME requirements later on in the senior member program.

Welcome to CAP, BTW. I am former 11B and E-4 myself. Served in B Co., 4th BN. 27th Inf. the "Wolfhounds". Sadly, my bn was deactivated in the late 90s. 1st and 2nd Bns still soldier on in the 25th ID at least.

[Flying Pig]

Just keep in mind that you are joining a civilian non-profit 501c3 corporation.  Not lat moving over to a different branch of the military.  You can wear most of your ribbons and a few of your badges.  Beyond that, you will come in and start at the beginning like everyone else.  I was a former Marine E5 and US Army Reserve E5.  Believe me, you'll get a lot more out of CAP if you just go through the steps.  I see way to many military vets who join CAP and then spend more time trying to figure out how to get "credit" for some wild and crazy school they went to in Okinawa in 1985.  If they just took a weekend at a CAP event, met new members and just learned about CAP they'd find its not so bad and would actually learn about how CAP operates as a corporation. Im not saying you are, but when youve been in a while, youll see what I mean.
As a former infantryman myself, the hardest thing you will have to learn is that CAP'ers ARENT infantryman.    They wont do land nav at full speed without cracking any branches

As far as your BDUs, yes, the ones you had before the ACUs will be the same ones.  Nope, your college credits dont get you anything in CAP.  My advice, as a 20 yr CAP member, former cadet, now Senior Member and Squadron Commander, just join the program and have fun and start on page one like everyone else.  Youll find a lot of great people.

There is a CAP uniform manual, the 39-1 that will tell you exactly what badges you can wear and where on your uniform you wear them.  Just keep in mind, the USAF dictates how the CAP/USAF uniform is worn.  So don't get mad at your Sq Commander if he tells you something is out of regs.

Aside from maybe your NCO academy, nothing that you did in the military will "count" for anything in CAP.  Although the experience you bring to CAP as far as leadership and experience with dealing with people is invaluable.  In my experience, the majority of CAP members you will meet have never served in the military.  Some will be everyday Joe's just going to work and living their lives, others will be retired military Colonels or Vascular Surgeons, cops, firefighters, or advertising executives of multimillion dollar companies or Airline pilots flying Boeing 777's or F-16 pilot at the local Air Force Base.  The list is diverse.  Just be aware that in CAP, you never know who you might be talking to.

Oh, and keep in mind, in order to wear the USAF uniform (Blues and BDUs) you have to maintain USAF height and weight and grooming standards.

[RiverAux]

Oh, and keep in mind, in order to wear the USAF uniform (Blues and BDUs) you have to maintain USAF height and weight and grooming standards.

No, to wear the USAF style uniforms he has to meet CAP height and weight standards which are about 10% higher than the USAF standard from 30 years ago and bears no resemblance to current USAF standards. 

[SABRE17]

when it comes to BDU's if you have ones issued to you from the army, and are relatively new you'll be just fine.

[joed99]

Again thanks for the great info. I looked at the height /weight and will have no issues. At 5 5 182 I never made army weight, only by tape  Thank god I only have to drop 2 pounds.

As for uniform items who is best? On AD i used USCAV and ranger joe's for alot of my uniform items. As for patches, such left sleeve for mass cap, and I am assuming unit on one of the breast pockets is that unit issue or personal  buy. What about boots? I have both black and desert in both GI (issue) and high speed tactical.

Again thank you all for the info as it makes my choice to join all the easier. I can't wait to put the uniform back on

[davidsinn]

Again thanks for the great info. I looked at the height /weight and will have no issues. At 5 5 182 I never made army weight, only by tape  Thank god I only have to drop 2 pounds.

As for uniform items who is best? On AD i used USCAV and ranger joe's for alot of my uniform items. As for patches, such left sleeve for mass cap, and I am assuming unit on one of the breast pockets is that unit issue or personal  buy. What about boots? I have both black and desert in both GI (issue) and high speed tactical.

Again thank you all for the info as it makes my choice to join all the easier. I can't wait to put the uniform back on

Black boots. Wing patches are optional in 49? of 52 wings so ask your unit. Unit patches are the same thing. A lot of units don't even have them made.

[Blueyes]

Army vet here, new to CAP and soaking it up.  (i was Intel, now a bodyguard and private investigator... Im real good at soaking it up, haha).  Served in OIF III, IV (2006).  S-2 for 3-4 AASLT, 4CAB, 4ID, MND-B.

If wearing USAF style uniforms, you must adhere to AR 670-1 rules/regs as far as personal appearance goes.  Ribbons (yes), badges (if they were worn above the left breast pocket, yes), combat patches (no)

If you want to wear CAP distinctive uniforms, you can be a grizzly bear if you so choose (fat, & hairy).  Can't have anything that says "I am/was military"

here is what you need...
http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/forms_publications__regulations/indexes_regulations_and_manuals.cfm

enjoy!

[cap235629]

Army vet here, new to CAP and soaking it up.  (i was Intel, now a bodyguard and private investigator... Im real good at soaking it up, haha).  Served in OIF III, IV (2006).  S-2 for 3-4 AASLT, 4CAB, 4ID, MND-B.

If wearing USAF style uniforms, you must adhere to AR 670-1 rules/regs as far as personal appearance goes.  Ribbons (yes), badges (if they were worn above the left breast pocket, yes), combat patches (no)

If you want to wear CAP distinctive uniforms, you can be a grizzly bear if you so choose (fat, & hairy).  Can't have anything that says "I am/was military"

here is what you need...
http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/forms_publications__regulations/indexes_regulations_and_manuals.cfm

enjoy!

emphasis mine..... HUH?

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Army vet here, new to CAP and soaking it up.  (i was Intel, now a bodyguard and private investigator... Im real good at soaking it up, haha).  Served in OIF III, IV (2006).  S-2 for 3-4 AASLT, 4CAB, 4ID, MND-B.

If wearing USAF style uniforms, you must adhere to AR 670-1 rules/regs as far as personal appearance goes.  Ribbons (yes), badges (if they were worn above the left breast pocket, yes), combat patches (no)

If you want to wear CAP distinctive uniforms, you can be a grizzly bear if you so choose (fat, & hairy).  Can't have anything that says "I am/was military"

here is what you need...
http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/forms_publications__regulations/indexes_regulations_and_manuals.cfm

enjoy!

emphasis mine..... HUH?

AR 670-1 is the Army manual that includes height and weight.

AR670-1 doesn't enter into it at all. In CAP we go by a few AFMANs, but for the most part they are all CAPR and CAPM (Regs and Manuals). Nothing AR or MCR or AM or MCM come into it at all.

[FlyTiger77]

Army vet here, new to CAP and soaking it up.  (i was Intel, now a bodyguard and private investigator... Im real good at soaking it up, haha).  Served in OIF III, IV (2006).  S-2 for 3-4 AASLT, 4CAB, 4ID, MND-B.

If wearing USAF style uniforms, you must adhere to AR 670-1 rules/regs as far as personal appearance goes.  Ribbons (yes), badges (if they were worn above the left breast pocket, yes), combat patches (no)

If you want to wear CAP distinctive uniforms, you can be a grizzly bear if you so choose (fat, & hairy).  Can't have anything that says "I am/was military"

here is what you need...
http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/forms_publications__regulations/indexes_regulations_and_manuals.cfm

enjoy!

emphasis mine..... HUH?

AR 670-1 is the Army manual that includes height and weight.

AR670-1 doesn't enter into it at all. In CAP we go by a few AFMANs, but for the most part they are all CAPR and CAPM (Regs and Manuals). Nothing AR or MCR or AM or MCM come into it at all.

Negative, Ghostrider. AR 670-1 governs the Wear and Appearance of Army Uniforms. AR 600-9 governs Height and Weight; however, I will agree that neither has anything to do with CAP.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

You got it.

[SarDragon]

Is it catching?

[Flying Pig]

Oh, and keep in mind, in order to wear the USAF uniform (Blues and BDUs) you have to maintain USAF height and weight and grooming standards.

No, to wear the USAF style uniforms he has to meet CAP height and weight standards which are about 10% higher than the USAF standard from 30 years ago and bears no resemblance to current USAF standards.

No kiddin'.  I didnt know that. I thought they mirrored the USAF. Good to know. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

Lets not confuse him.  670-1 is for the green... I mean two tone blue... suiters.  39-1 is for the red-haired stepchildren in Air Force blue.

600-9 actually allows you to be heavier than 39-1 does.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I know, I know, necrothreading.

Since it was brought up here, what are the proper abbreviations for all officer ranks for us. I bleed a lot of green, so I need to come online with USAF, so I need to bleed more blue now.

[Spaceman3750]

I know, I know, necrothreading.

Since it was brought up here, what are the proper abbreviations for all officer ranks for us. I bleed a lot of green, so I need to come online with USAF, so I need to bleed more blue now.

It's actually defined somewhere in regs (I don't know where) but let's see if I can regurgitate it from memory -

2Lt - 2nd Lieutenant
1Lt - 1st Lieutenant
Capt - Captain
Maj - Major
LtCol - Lieutenant Colonel
Col - Colonel
BGen - Brigadier General
MGen - Major General

(Note the lower case)

The most common mistakes I've seen is CPT for captain and LTC for Lt. Colonel.

[EMT-83]

You're close, but...

CAPR 35-5 for grades

CAPR 10-1 for office symbols

[Spaceman3750]

I was a bit off...

CAP officer grades are:
(1) Major General (Maj Gen)
(2) Brigadier General (Brig Gen)
(3) Colonel (Col)
(4) Lieutenant Colonel (Lt Col)
(5) Major (Maj)
(6) Captain (Capt)
(7) First Lieutenant (1st Lt)
(8) Second Lieutenant (2d Lt)

I hardly ever see lieutenants abbreviated that way (unless prefaced by C/), that's interesting.

[jeders]

There's also a thread specifically for this topic in the Announcements section http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1030.0

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I took a look at that thread and noticed that for senior members there is a ranl of SGT before SSGT. I had thought that the grade of SGT had been replaced by SrAMN. As SGT is E-4 could i give up my officer grade for SGT as I was anE-4 in the Army? That is if that isn't a typo in the otber thread.

[MIKE]

That thread is outdated.  The latest revision drops Sergeant for NCOs in grade E-4.  There is no SrA option in CAP.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

That is what I  had thought. Might want to get that  fixed.

[MSG Mac]

I took a look at that thread and noticed that for senior members there is a ranl of SGT before SSGT. I had thought that the grade of SGT had been replaced by SrAMN. As SGT is E-4 could i give up my officer grade for SGT as I was anE-4 in the Army? That is if that isn't a typo in the otber thread.

CAPR 35-5 gives you the option of remaining an NCO in the highest grade you held. BUT There is no provision for advancement as an NCO short of being promoted on the military side.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I took a look at that thread and noticed that for senior members there is a ranl of SGT before SSGT. I had thought that the grade of SGT had been replaced by SrAMN. As SGT is E-4 could i give up my officer grade for SGT as I was anE-4 in the Army? That is if that isn't a typo in the otber thread.

CAPR 35-5 gives you the option of remaining an NCO in the highest grade you held. BUT There is no provision for advancement as an NCO short of being promoted on the military side.

Right, I understand this, but the thing about me and my prior service (I would be willing to stay at one rank) is that even though I was an "NCO" as a corporal, I was an E-4 therefore I can't transfer to an NCO grade in CAP.

The reason that I would rather change to an enlisted rank is that my style of leadership is more of an NCO than an officer. I am very hands on, and I like to be in the dirt really working with the people I am supervising.

[davidsinn]

I took a look at that thread and noticed that for senior members there is a ranl of SGT before SSGT. I had thought that the grade of SGT had been replaced by SrAMN. As SGT is E-4 could i give up my officer grade for SGT as I was anE-4 in the Army? That is if that isn't a typo in the otber thread.

CAPR 35-5 gives you the option of remaining an NCO in the highest grade you held. BUT There is no provision for advancement as an NCO short of being promoted on the military side.

Right, I understand this, but the thing about me and my prior service (I would be willing to stay at one rank) is that even though I was an "NCO" as a corporal, I was an E-4 therefore I can't transfer to an NCO grade in CAP.

The reason that I would rather change to an enlisted rank is that my style of leadership is more of an NCO than an officer. I am very hands on, and I like to be in the dirt really working with the people I am supervising.

That omission also rules out Navy PO3s who all are NCOs.

[vento]

I was a bit off...

CAP officer grades are:
(1) Major General (Maj Gen)
(2) Brigadier General (Brig Gen)
(3) Colonel (Col)
(4) Lieutenant Colonel (Lt Col)
(5) Major (Maj)
(6) Captain (Capt)
(7) First Lieutenant (1st Lt)
(8) Second Lieutenant (2d Lt)

I hardly ever see lieutenants abbreviated that way (unless prefaced by C/), that's interesting.

I believe the AF and the Marines do it this way. Other services usually go with 1LT and 2LT.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I was a bit off...

CAP officer grades are:
(1) Major General (Maj Gen)
(2) Brigadier General (Brig Gen)
(3) Colonel (Col)
(4) Lieutenant Colonel (Lt Col)
(5) Major (Maj)
(6) Captain (Capt)
(7) First Lieutenant (1st Lt)
(8) Second Lieutenant (2d Lt)

I hardly ever see lieutenants abbreviated that way (unless prefaced by C/), that's interesting.

I believe the AF and the Marines do it this way. Other services usually go with 1LT and 2LT.

Army, everything only has a three letter abbreviation.
PV1
PV2
PFC
SPC
CPL
SGT
SSG
SFC
MSG
1SG
SGM
CSM
CCM

2LT
1LT
CPT
MAJ
LCL
COL
BGN
MGN
LGN
GEN

EDIT:Add Specialist; SPC
Add Corporal; CPL

[vento]

I was a bit off...

CAP officer grades are:
(1) Major General (Maj Gen)
(2) Brigadier General (Brig Gen)
(3) Colonel (Col)
(4) Lieutenant Colonel (Lt Col)
(5) Major (Maj)
(6) Captain (Capt)
(7) First Lieutenant (1st Lt)
(8) Second Lieutenant (2d Lt)

I hardly ever see lieutenants abbreviated that way (unless prefaced by C/), that's interesting.

I believe the AF and the Marines do it this way. Other services usually go with 1LT and 2LT.

I was actually wrong. The Marines do 2ndLt instead of 2d Lt.
Scroll all the way to the bottom of this page and it shows the abbreviations used in each service.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Air_Force_officer_rank_insignia

Since we are the USAF Aux, I assume we should follow the USAF abbreviations.  :)

[jeders]

Since we are the USAF Aux, I assume we should follow the USAF abbreviations. 

You assume correctly.

[FlyTiger77]

Army, everything only has a three letter abbreviation.
PV1
PV2
PFC
SPC
CPL
SGT
SSG
SFC
MSG
1SG
SGM
CSM
CCM

2LT
1LT
CPT
MAJ
LCL
COL
BGN
MGN
LGN
GEN

EDIT:Add Specialist; SPC
Add Corporal; CPL

Not quite (and not all Army rank abbreviations are three characters):
Sergeant Major of the Army=SMA not CCM
Lieutenant Colonel=LTC not LCL
Brigadier General=BG
Major General=MG
Lieutenant General=LTG

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Not quite (and not all Army rank abbreviations are three characters):
Sergeant Major of the Army=SMA not CCM
Lieutenant Colonel=LTC not LCL
Brigadier General=BG
Major General=MG
Lieutenant General=LTG

Thank you for the correction, I have never been too big on the higher ups.

[caphornbuckle]

Isn't Corporal being removed from the Army ranks as well and the E-4 Grade will be Specialist only?

[MSG Mac]

When you are promoted to E-4 you are a Specialist. Usually you are appointed to corporal when you complete what is now called the Warrior Leadership Course.

[caphornbuckle]

When you are promoted to E-4 you are a Specialist. Usually you are appointed to corporal when you complete what is now called the Warrior Leadership Course.

Thanks!

My information must have been a mistake.  I was told by my ARNG First Sergeant that Corporal was being eliminated and PLDC was going to be for Sergeant.  Of course, I've been out for about 6 years now so I'm a little out of date.

[JK657]

Corporal and Specialist are both active in the Army. Specialist is most common. Promotion to Corporal depends on what position the E-4 is holding. If the E-4 is in a leadership position (team leader) then they are a Corporal, if not then they are a Specialist. Corporal does not require PLDC/WLC.

[caphornbuckle]

Corporal and Specialist are both active in the Army. Specialist is most common. Promotion to Corporal depends on what position the E-4 is holding. If the E-4 is in a leadership position (team leader) then they are a Corporal, if not then they are a Specialist. Corporal does not require PLDC/WLC.

Thanks for the info.

I was mistaken about the former PLDC for Corporal though.  I believe it was for Sergeant but is now required for Staff Sergeant.  Is this correct?

[JK657]

Correct... you are required to complete the current incarnation of PLDC to get SSG. (every once and awhile someone slips through)

[GroundHawg]

I was a Specialist for about 10 min, just long enough for me to walk across the hall and get "promoted" to Cpl. Congrats! All the responsibility of a Sgt and none of the pay!

[Sapper168]

As far as rank and prior service i was also trying to decide on whether as a senior member to take  NCO or officer ranking. I finally decided on officer to keep things simple. There are no senior member NCO's in my unit and while the ranks may be different the job was still the same.  Keeps things simple and easy for the cadets and the public.