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NCO

Started by pantera3110, March 09, 2015, 03:26:08 PM

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Flying Pig

Im waiting for a CAP Officer/NCO relationship to be cited in a divorce proceeding. You know its coming

LSThiker

Quote from: Flying Pig on April 29, 2015, 01:37:42 PM
Im waiting for a CAP Officer/NCO relationship to be cited in a divorce proceeding. You know its coming

Of course some idiot will.  After all, remember what happened in July 1947:

Quote'Major' Sought Salutes; Wife Seeking Divorce
MILWAUKEE, (UP)—Mrs. Rosalyn W sought a divorce today, charging that her husband, Clifford, demanded that she "salute him." Her suit charged that W, a business executive and a major in the Civil Air patrol, told her to address him "by his military title at all times."

kwe1009

Quote from: Storm Chaser on April 28, 2015, 11:00:28 PM
Quote from: kwe1009 on April 28, 2015, 10:39:35 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on April 28, 2015, 07:05:00 PM
Quote from: kwe1009 on April 25, 2015, 06:10:59 PM
In the military there are jobs that only NCOs perform and jobs that only Officers perform (not just being commanders).  So what exactly will NCOs do that Officers will not do in CAP?  If there is no separation of duties then what exactly is the purpose of having a CAP NCO corp?  I have been trying to understand this since this new program came out.

You bring some valid questions, but this could also be said of CAP officers. Many of the duties that CAP officers do are done by NCOs in the military. So what is the purpose of making every adult member a CAP officer?

Perhaps instead of trying to figure out the role of CAP NCOs, we should rethink the role of CAP officers. If CAP officers' functions are redefined as those roles involving managing, directing or commanding, then having a CAP enlisted force running the day-to-day training, programs and operations makes sense.

I don't see that being a very good way to go in a volunteer organization.  To limit a volunteer's opportunities by creating a caste system like exists in the military has way more downside than upside.  We should not create artificial barriers for our volunteers who wish to serve.

First of all, calling the division of roles between officers and enlisted a "caste system" is not fair to the thousands of service men and women, both officers and enlisted, who work in close collaboration to protect our nation and way of life. Second, what do you think the purpose of having different grades or ranks is if not to divide functions and responsibilities among members? If you're not going to perform a role or function associated with being an officer, then why do you need to be one at all? Grades and promotions for the sole purpose of recognition is a poor way of using a system that has been around for thousands of years to denote responsibility and authority.

As an Air Force Senior Master Sergeant, I feel the use of the term "caste system" is accurate when talking about the separation between officers and enlisted.  We are divided and no matter how close we work there is still "us" and "them."  The UCMJ makes sure that is stays that way too.  Quite frankly this system is probably outdated and needs to be reviewed as their are many enlisted with much better leadership skills than officers.  Having a piece of paper (college degree) does not necessarily make you smarter or a better leader.

My argument against having officers and enlisted is purely in regards to CAP.  This is a volunteer organization and limiting people to a certain set of tasks based on if they are officer or enlisted is not good for the organization.  I have not heard a single argument yet for how having an NCO corps would be a benefit to CAP.  That is the bottom line, is there a benefit to the organization that outweighs all of the negatives?  If not then this program needs to go away.  We do not need to create artificial barriers to people who want to give their time and money to CAP.

Here is a possible situation: John joins CAP as "enlisted" because he is an IT person and all of the IT duties are handled by enlisted.  After 15 years he doesn't want to do that any longer and wants to do something that only Majors and above can do.  Even though he has been in CAP for a very long time and has more training and education than is required for the position, he will only be a 2nd Lt and not be allowed to do that job.  He is discouraged and quits CAP.

I think this something that can happen.  Yes you can put rules in place so that maybe John can be promoted to Major but if you are going to something like that then you are just creating administrative burden that isn't necessary if you just leave everyone as an officer.  Seriously, I think a case could be made to have all Senior Members be NCOs and give temporary promotions to those filling command positions.  Rank really doesn't matter in CAP except for the chain of command and this would actually be less confusing. 


JeffDG

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on April 29, 2015, 11:48:45 AM
Some out there may not like this, but during the Second World War at least, there were NCOs in some Air Forces flying as pilots

CAP has an award named after one of them.

Holding Pattern

Quote from: kwe1009 on April 29, 2015, 03:27:19 PM

Here is a possible situation: John joins CAP as "enlisted" because he is an IT person and all of the IT duties are handled by enlisted.  After 15 years he doesn't want to do that any longer and wants to do something that only Majors and above can do.  Even though he has been in CAP for a very long time and has more training and education than is required for the position, he will only be a 2nd Lt and not be allowed to do that job.  He is discouraged and quits CAP.

I think this something that can happen.  Yes you can put rules in place so that maybe John can be promoted to Major but if you are going to something like that then you are just creating administrative burden that isn't necessary if you just leave everyone as an officer.  Seriously, I think a case could be made to have all Senior Members be NCOs and give temporary promotions to those filling command positions.  Rank really doesn't matter in CAP except for the chain of command and this would actually be less confusing.

I think this can be easily mitigated by using some form of time in grade transition formula. If an NCO has promoted 4 times in 15 years, give them the opportunity to promote 4 times in the officer track as if they had completed the time in grade requirement already. They still have to complete the professional development, etc. but they don't have to deal with the time cooldown.

Storm Chaser


Quote from: FW on April 29, 2015, 02:04:53 AM
^ Sorry to hurt your sensibility, however "Caste System" is a perfectly accurate way to distinguish the divide between the officer and enlisted corps in the military. One can still be court martialed for "fraternization".  Yes, times may have made the divide blurred, but it's still there.

Since your comments are based on ignorance, I accept your apology. I recommend you pick up a dictionary and read the definition of "caste system". And while you're at it, maybe read about the history of military grade and rank system.

Please answer this, if we don't have a division of duties, responsibilities and authority in CAP based on grade, why do we need them at all?

lordmonar

just finished my report from last night's NCO committee meeting.  Just sent it to the region CC for review.  Once he gets a chance to read it I'll post my notes here...or the end of next week which ever happens first.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

lordmonar

-   Blazer Name Plate Device
        -   Vanguard ready to produce
        -   Waiting for Suzie Parker to send out survey to NCOs to determine how many we need
-   Strategic Communications Plan
        -   Still working with NHQ on how best to get the word out.
        -   Gen Vazquez and Mr. Salvador request success stories
                 -   From the field
                 -   From officers at all levels about how having NCO involved improved operations/outcomes/etc.
                 -   Send any stories to Chief Eldridge CC the rest of the committee.
                 -   Will be developed into new articles to be sent out to the field.
                 -    No more than 2 pages long.
-   Promotable Positions
        o   Duty positions sent to 20-1 guys.
                   Still arguing about the title for group level NCO. (Superintendent vs NCO)
                   20-1 is going through re-write to include NHQ structure may be a while before done.
        o   Duty Position will be sent to E-services as soon as ready...even if 20-1 is not ready.
        o   New Committee Appointment letter sent out.
-   Waivers for SMSgt to attend NCS.
        o   SMSgt will be allowed to attend NCS when the new CAPR 50-17 is published.
        o   Until then send waiver request to NHQ and they will be approved.
-   Changes to CAPR 35-5 Approved for next publication date.
        o   Expect change in the next 30 days.
        o   6 month waiting period before putting on stripe is gone. (Same as officers now).
        o   Promotions on Active Duty now affect promotions in CAP (Same as officers now).
        o   Promotion boards changed. 
                   We no longer have our own promotion board.
                   We use the same promotion boards as officers
                   It is highly encouraged/recommended that there be an NCO on the board if an NCO is being considered for promotion.
        o   Advanced CAP Officer Rank for AD Enlisted rank is back into 35-5.
        o   Change to definitions of who can become a CAP NCO....any prior/current service enlisted personnel are now allowed to
                become NCOs.  E1-E4 are now allowed to apply.
-   Phase III
        o   Per General Vasquez
        o   The Phase III concept (allowing non-prior military members to become NCOs) is on permanent hold.
        o   Reasoning is
                   Our move to ACC looming and the new opportunities and
                   roles that the move will bring and with the wording in the original agreement with the SECAF
                   We will be upsetting that strong back bone if we bring in untrained and untested personnel into the NCO corps
         o   Not really a major issue.
                   Phase III was not expected to be started for another 2-3 years at least.
                   Proceed with Phase II building the NCO PME with the idea that Phase III will/may be implemented in the future.
-   Phase II
        o   Recruiting Plan
                   The Officer to NCO matrix is still running the command approval expect an answer by the end of May
                   Clarification about Former and Current E-1-E-4.
                   Expect more information and a solid plan by the National Conference.
        o   PME
                  Already some draft PME courses and ideas are being submitted.
                  Expect drafts to be sent out to committee by end of month.
                  Working goal to have something ready to present at the national conference so we can fill in the details and start implementing
                        it by next fiscal year.
-   NCO Promotions
        o   All NCO promotions are being sent by NHQ to Chief Eldridge just to make sure everyone is on the same page and we are all dotting
                our I's and crossing our T's.   This will slow down the promotion process some...but everyone is still learning and we keep changing
                things...so NHQ is erring on the side of caution.
-   NCO Road Show
        o   Expect by National Board for there to be a canned "road show" ready to be sent to the NCO team to take to the units.
-   National Conference
        o   Intent is to have a NCO committee meeting on Wednesday Evening (26 Aug) starting at 1630 or 1730 and running for at least an
                hour.
        o   Also Chief Eldridge will be holding and NCO seminar on Friday for anyone interested.
        o   Regional Reps are highly encouraged to attend this year's conference.
        o   Regional Reps should ask their Region Commanders is there any funds to help them get to the conference (I'm already covered
                boss...but if we got any money for the wing NCS it would be nice to have them there).
        o   Chief Eldridge is working with NHQ to see if there is any help from their end.
-   Next meeting
        o   Focus on Strategic Communications plan and PD courses.
        o   Deal with any feedback from CSAG
-   Any questions, suggestions, inputs or feedback from the field please Contact me at lordmonar@yahoo.com or 702-767-6709
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

RiverAux

An unfortunate step in the wrong direction in eliminating the waiting period to get stripes.  Both officers and NCOs SHOULD have to wait a bit before being eligible for any sort of advanced promotion (even former military). 

lordmonar

Quote from: RiverAux on April 29, 2015, 11:02:01 PM
An unfortunate step in the wrong direction in eliminating the waiting period to get stripes.  Both officers and NCOs SHOULD have to wait a bit before being eligible for any sort of advanced promotion (even former military).
I agree.....but we take what we get and work on the little things as we go along.   Baby steps.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Storm Chaser

Quote from: RiverAux on April 29, 2015, 11:02:01 PM
An unfortunate step in the wrong direction in eliminating the waiting period to get stripes.  Both officers and NCOs SHOULD have to wait a bit before being eligible for any sort of advanced promotion (even former military).

CAPR 35-5 still allows some leeway since "such promotions are neither automatic nor mandatory, but are at the discretion of the promoting authority". I don't require a specific amount of time, but do expect members requesting military promotions to be actively contributing at a level commensurable with the grade being requested.

LSThiker

Quote from: lordmonar on April 29, 2015, 10:14:23 PM
702-767-XXXX

Did you really want to post your phone number?  Cause, I think I could have some fun with that number  >:D

lordmonar

Quote from: LSThiker on April 30, 2015, 03:30:50 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on April 29, 2015, 10:14:23 PM
702-767-XXXX

Did you really want to post your phone number?  Cause, I think I could have some fun with that number  >:D
I did....it is public knowledge...posted here before.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

LSThiker

Quote from: lordmonar on April 30, 2015, 03:48:04 AM
Quote from: LSThiker on April 30, 2015, 03:30:50 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on April 29, 2015, 10:14:23 PM
702-767-XXXX

Did you really want to post your phone number?  Cause, I think I could have some fun with that number  >:D
I did....it is public knowledge...posted here before.

Alright, well I am flying to Reno in the next few months.  Perhaps I will give you a call at 2am from my hotel phone :)

lordmonar

Quote from: Storm Chaser on April 30, 2015, 02:52:31 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on April 29, 2015, 11:02:01 PM
An unfortunate step in the wrong direction in eliminating the waiting period to get stripes.  Both officers and NCOs SHOULD have to wait a bit before being eligible for any sort of advanced promotion (even former military).

CAPR 35-5 still allows some leeway since "such promotions are neither automatic nor mandatory, but are at the discretion of the promoting authority". I don't require a specific amount of time, but do expect members requesting military promotions to be actively contributing at a level commensurable with the grade being requested.
Not saying you are right or wrong.....in theory at least.....but explain to me the concept where a real USAF Lt Col has to be "actively contributing at a level commensurate with the grade being requested".....but Joe Bag of Donuts gets it for just being the squadron supply officer for a long time.

If you are being honest and fair....you just forward the CAPF 2 up the chain for approval.

NOW having just said that.........I would like to see that change sometime in the future.....but  that the difference between what is right now....and what should be right down the road.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

lordmonar

Quote from: LSThiker on April 30, 2015, 03:49:39 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on April 30, 2015, 03:48:04 AM
Quote from: LSThiker on April 30, 2015, 03:30:50 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on April 29, 2015, 10:14:23 PM
702-767-XXXX

Did you really want to post your phone number?  Cause, I think I could have some fun with that number  >:D
I did....it is public knowledge...posted here before.

Alright, well I am flying to Reno in the next few months.  Perhaps I will give you a call at 2am from my hotel phone :)
I'll just say I'm talking to Jake from State Farm...it will be cool.  :)
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Storm Chaser

Quote from: lordmonar on April 30, 2015, 03:53:39 AM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on April 30, 2015, 02:52:31 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on April 29, 2015, 11:02:01 PM
An unfortunate step in the wrong direction in eliminating the waiting period to get stripes.  Both officers and NCOs SHOULD have to wait a bit before being eligible for any sort of advanced promotion (even former military).

CAPR 35-5 still allows some leeway since "such promotions are neither automatic nor mandatory, but are at the discretion of the promoting authority". I don't require a specific amount of time, but do expect members requesting military promotions to be actively contributing at a level commensurable with the grade being requested.
Not saying you are right or wrong.....in theory at least.....but explain to me the concept where a real USAF Lt Col has to be "actively contributing at a level commensurate with the grade being requested".....but Joe Bag of Donuts gets it for just being the squadron supply officer for a long time.

I see your point and agree. Many specialty tracks need to be updated to prevent that from happening. Our current system is not fair at all. An Operations Officer has to serve at the wing to earn a Master Rating (an ESO for 3 years!), but an Admin Officer never has to leave the squadron. We definitely need some revamping in that area.

Quote from: lordmonar on April 30, 2015, 03:53:39 AM
If you are being honest and fair....you just forward the CAPF 2 up the chain for approval.

I believe that if I treat all military promotions the same way I'm being fair. I know what I posted before, but what I'm really looking for is to see that the military officer is actively pursuing training, progressing and contributing to the unit. I've seen many military Lt Cols join, get the grade and then do nothing beyond Level 1. Worse, I've seen many military Lt Cols not do much at the unit at all.

Quote from: lordmonar on April 30, 2015, 03:53:39 AM
NOW having just said that.........I would like to see that change sometime in the future.....but  that the difference between what is right now....and what should be right down the road.

I would like it changed as well. Out of curiosity, why remove the 6-month waiting period for NCOs instead of adding the same period to officers?

LSThiker

Quote from: Storm Chaser on April 30, 2015, 01:00:05 PM
I see your point and agree. Many specialty tracks need to be updated to prevent that from happening. Our current system is not fair at all. An Operations Officer has to serve at the wing to earn a Master Rating (an ESO for 3 years!), but an Admin Officer never has to leave the squadron. We definitely need some revamping in that area.

A change that I think is ultimately coming as it seems more and more specialty tracks are moving to a Group or higher position for master rating. 

Quote from: Storm Chaser on April 30, 2015, 01:00:05 PM
I would like it changed as well. Out of curiosity, why remove the 6-month waiting period for NCOs instead of adding the same period to officers?

Just a guess, but probably because the officer promotions are not within the line of fire for the NCOs.  So they probably had little leverage to ask for officers to wait 6 months before promotion. 

FW

Quote from: Storm Chaser on April 29, 2015, 04:27:37 PM

Quote from: FW on April 29, 2015, 02:04:53 AM
^ Sorry to hurt your sensibility, however "Caste System" is a perfectly accurate way to distinguish the divide between the officer and enlisted corps in the military. One can still be court martialed for "fraternization".  Yes, times may have made the divide blurred, but it's still there.

Since your comments are based on ignorance, I accept your apology. I recommend you pick up a dictionary and read the definition of "caste system". And while you're at it, maybe read about the history of military grade and rank system.

Please answer this, if we don't have a division of duties, responsibilities and authority in CAP based on grade, why do we need them at all?

From our friends at Wiki Pedia: "Several characteristics distinguish a caste system. The first is the tendency toward endogamy, meaning that people marry within the same caste exclusively. Caste mobility is also extremely rare; one cannot transform from a laborer to a scholar except in very rare circumstances, for example. Higher castes traditionally hold all of the political power, and the castes may be divided further through language, culture, and economics. Within a caste system, each member generally knows his or her place, and your social status is usually apparent to others as well." 

In a military society, this fits.  You may wish to go over the UCMJ, again, where this is pretty much explained in detail.  We can agree to disagree, however ignorance is something I am always willing to consider... :angel:

To answer your question; we don't need a military grade structure to show a division of duties and/or responsibilities in CAP. It is an affectation desired by our association with the Air Force, and by our history as part of the War Dept. during WW2.  Having  NCO's in CAP is a choice.  Our 40 years without a formal NCO Corps has shown the lack of need for NCO's.  We can reorganize things however we choose, but IMHO, we could be spending our resources in areas that really need improving.

Storm Chaser

Quote from: FW on April 30, 2015, 01:32:43 PM
Quote from: Storm Chaser on April 29, 2015, 04:27:37 PM

Quote from: FW on April 29, 2015, 02:04:53 AM
^ Sorry to hurt your sensibility, however "Caste System" is a perfectly accurate way to distinguish the divide between the officer and enlisted corps in the military. One can still be court martialed for "fraternization".  Yes, times may have made the divide blurred, but it's still there.

Since your comments are based on ignorance, I accept your apology. I recommend you pick up a dictionary and read the definition of "caste system". And while you're at it, maybe read about the history of military grade and rank system.

Please answer this, if we don't have a division of duties, responsibilities and authority in CAP based on grade, why do we need them at all?

From our friends at Wiki Pedia: "Several characteristics distinguish a caste system. The first is the tendency toward endogamy, meaning that people marry within the same caste exclusively. Caste mobility is also extremely rare; one cannot transform from a laborer to a scholar except in very rare circumstances, for example. Higher castes traditionally hold all of the political power, and the castes may be divided further through language, culture, and economics. Within a caste system, each member generally knows his or her place, and your social status is usually apparent to others as well." 

In a military society, this fits.  You may wish to go over the UCMJ, again, where this is pretty much explained in detail.  We can agree to disagree, however ignorance is something I am always willing to consider... :angel:

To answer your question; we don't need a military grade structure to show a division of duties and/or responsibilities in CAP. It is an affectation desired by our association with the Air Force, and by our history as part of the War Dept. during WW2.  Having  NCO's in CAP is a choice.  Our 40 years without a formal NCO Corps has shown the lack of need for NCO's.  We can reorganize things however we choose, but IMHO, we could be spending our resources in areas that really need improving.

I think the solution is to eliminate all military-style grades in CAP and either not have grades at all or have grade insignias that reflect PD Level progression only (similar to the lines/stripes used for Flight Officer grades; one line per level). Another alternative is to have temporary grades associated with duty positions while holding that office. The bottom line is we shouldn't wear military-style officer grades if they're not going to be associated with similar roles, duties, responsibilities and authority, which are normally associated with those grades.