Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations

Started by Okayish Aviator, August 04, 2018, 08:16:51 PM

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Okayish Aviator

Quote from: SarDragon on August 15, 2018, 11:33:36 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on August 15, 2018, 11:13:35 PMAs noted in the roll-out a while back,
Thanks, Eclipse. Just out of curiosity, how well are they coming on this little project? Is it "We're re-designating everything right now" or is it more like "The new publications will have a new number, but only when we get around to rewriting it"?

As noted in the initial roll-out, renumbering will mostly occur when a pub gets its next revision. They may reach a point where they just throw new numbers on the leftovers.

I'd imagine it'll be a CAPR-30-1 or even CAPI-30-1 (I for Instruction...or something)
Always give 100%, unless you're giving blood.


Hawk200

Quote from: DocJekyll on August 16, 2018, 06:23:57 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on August 15, 2018, 11:33:36 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on August 15, 2018, 11:13:35 PMAs noted in the roll-out a while back,
Thanks, Eclipse. Just out of curiosity, how well are they coming on this little project? Is it "We're re-designating everything right now" or is it more like "The new publications will have a new number, but only when we get around to rewriting it"?

As noted in the initial roll-out, renumbering will mostly occur when a pub gets its next revision. They may reach a point where they just throw new numbers on the leftovers.

I'd imagine it'll be a CAPR-30-1 or even CAPI-30-1 (I for Instruction...or something)

And by the time it comes out, it'll include the OCPs. (Yeah, that long.)

Fubar

Is anyone here actually involved with the group that oversees our uniforms? I'd love to know why the process is so slow. I'm confident it's not laziness or indifference, there must be roadblocks that aren't obvious. Perhaps we have a poor process in place or maybe we run everything through an echelon of the Air Force that sees our uniforms as a low priority.

We're coming up on two years since we adopted a new uniform that's still not officially in the books. And this is for something as trivial as uniforms, no wonder the important stuff (things that can hurt us or save lives) takes forever to get worked out.

I get things taking longer in a volunteer organization, but there are times I wonder what the deal is.

Okayish Aviator

Quote from: Fubar on August 17, 2018, 04:48:49 AM
Is anyone here actually involved with the group that oversees our uniforms? I'd love to know why the process is so slow. I'm confident it's not laziness or indifference, there must be roadblocks that aren't obvious. Perhaps we have a poor process in place or maybe we run everything through an echelon of the Air Force that sees our uniforms as a low priority.

We're coming up on two years since we adopted a new uniform that's still not officially in the books. And this is for something as trivial as uniforms, no wonder the important stuff (things that can hurt us or save lives) takes forever to get worked out.

I get things taking longer in a volunteer organization, but there are times I wonder what the deal is.

I know several people who are involved in it, and I know they are as frustrated with all this as anyone. They put a lot of work into getting the ABU ready and as soon as they get it out there the AF goes to OCP. Couple that with the constant attention and questions and I can surely see why they may not want to out themselves on here.

OCP's won't even be a possibility until AFTER the rest of the AF is totally in to them. I can promise you that. I started the thread though to get the wheels turning on a plan of action and see what everyone has to say about it's wear. May help those who can actually do the thing to put it together and get a plan started.

I've been noting what all is said and have a "working draft" of a set of wear instructions loosely based on the ABU instructions & the Air Force's wear instructions with a CAP emphasis. Maybe it can be sent up in Memorandum and added at a later date.
Always give 100%, unless you're giving blood.


PHall

A good chunk of the Air Force already has their OCP's. Anyone who has deployed to the sand in the past 5 years should still have them.
OCP's are already in production and will ramp up as the Air Force has their contractor switch from making ABU's to OCP's.
So the deployment of this uniform should go pretty quick. Basically a test to see how well the procurement and AAFES can work together.
I wouldn't be surprised to start seeing some shortages of ABU's in clothing sales starting in the first half of next year.

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: PHall on August 17, 2018, 06:54:00 PM
I wouldn't be surprised to start seeing some shortages of ABU's in clothing sales starting in the first half of next year.

I think this is a pretty logical assumption.

OCPs are pretty widely available now. ABUs will die off fairly quick. Because of the cross-branch use, you'll see a lot more sources to get them from. ABUs, being so distinct from UCP/ACUs, were often a challenge depending on where you were shopping through. OCPs have been easy to get for some time.

LATORRECA

Quote from: DocJekyll on August 12, 2018, 07:22:11 PM
Quote from: LATORRECA on August 12, 2018, 04:25:13 PM
So....

We do have several member in this forum which belongs to national. My question is if national has said anything internally about this uniform change for the AF? Has been any talks at the higher level about it at all?

Carlos


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I'd imagine they are well aware and are working on it. It's going to be a supply and logistics nightmare if we wait too long.
Hey doc good explanation on your last post and your contacts. I am looking at this as the sooner the change is made, the better will be since the ABU is very unpopular including between the AF folks and some members in the CAP.

     I do understand their are very respectable individuals in this thread and forum , however, some of you are speculator and other are the deal makers. Let National put this thing to rest. I believe, National should do a white letter explaining they are looking at this problem set or no changes will be made. I do believe that will a peace some members.

    Furthermore, even thought is a change for the air force, is also a big gamble for our corporation since we just spend a lots of money on the last change.

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Ned

Let me see if I can help.

I was on the National Uniform Committee, the Board of Governors, and bunch of other committees that worked these issues.

And nothing is going to change anytime soon.  Even if CAP decided today to aggressively pursue a policy change with our USAF colleagues, there is months and years worth of work and meetings before anything will change.  And when we do go to OCPs, there will be a generous wear out date (a matter of years).

It has been USAF and CAP policy for about 75 years or so that our cadets and adult members meeting AF-imposed H & W and grooming standards may wear AF-style uniforms.  There is almost always a lag period of months or years when the AF changes, but we have always changed.

I bought my ABUs.  I will probably buy another set or two because I do a lot of CAP stuff.  Because nothing is going to change very soon.

There are months of committee work and discussions that will have to occur before we make our request to the AF, and then they will spend many months considering it.  And then there will be years for members to buy OCPs or not.

There is really no rush here.  In the meantime, we should all focus on the missions and our assignments.  Because what we do is far more important than what we wear.


Ned Lee
Col, CAP
Former Member NUC, BoG, and a lot of other Things


LATORRECA

Quote from: Ned on August 17, 2018, 10:41:22 PM
Let me see if I can help.

I was on the National Uniform Committee, the Board of Governors, and bunch of other committees that worked these issues.

And nothing is going to change anytime soon.  Even if CAP decided today to aggressively pursue a policy change with our USAF colleagues, there is months and years worth of work and meetings before anything will change.  And when we do go to OCPs, there will be a generous wear out date (a matter of years).

It has been USAF and CAP policy for about 75 years or so that our cadets and adult members meeting AF-imposed H & W and grooming standards may wear AF-style uniforms.  There is almost always a lag period of months or years when the AF changes, but we have always changed.

I bought my ABUs.  I will probably buy another set or two because I do a lot of CAP stuff.  Because nothing is going to change very soon.

There are months of committee work and discussions that will have to occur before we make our request to the AF, and then they will spend many months considering it.  And then there will be years for members to buy OCPs or not.

There is really no rush here.  In the meantime, we should all focus on the missions and our assignments.  Because what we do is far more important than what we wear.


Ned Lee
Col, CAP
Former Member NUC, BoG, and a lot of other Things
Thanks, Ned.

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etodd

Quote from: Ned on August 17, 2018, 10:41:22 PM

.... we should all focus on the missions and our assignments.  Because what we do is far more important than what we wear.



:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
:D :D :D :D
"Don't try to explain it, just bow your head
Breathe in, breathe out, move on ..."

Okayish Aviator

Quote from: etodd on August 17, 2018, 11:57:52 PM
Quote from: Ned on August 17, 2018, 10:41:22 PM

.... we should all focus on the missions and our assignments.  Because what we do is far more important than what we wear.



:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
:D :D :D :D

Agreed :D :D
Always give 100%, unless you're giving blood.


Luis R. Ramos

Yeah, but some members have gotten the example from Ma Blue and the sister branches, and now they want to show the behavior...


Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

Hawk200

Quote from: DocJekyll on August 17, 2018, 04:02:10 PM
OCP's won't even be a possibility until AFTER the rest of the AF is totally in to them.

Not to look like I'm whining about it, (although it will look like it anyway,) but I don't think it's out of line to think that the Army needs to outfit everyone first. I'm still wearing the digital, and there are a handful of people in the battalion that don't have enough pieces to wear a complete uniform.

I remember watching the VP's address to the troops in the sandbox on Thanksgiving, and wondering how there were airmen wearing OCPs when I still can't get them yet.

Quote from: DocJekyll on August 15, 2018, 06:17:40 PM
So just so were clear:
Right Sleeve Pocket: Flag at top, NCSA patch or other patch outlined in Attachment 4 of the 39-1.
Left Sleeve Pocket: Unit of Organization Patch (Squadron/Group/Wing/Region/National) + any awarded, US military or joint qualification tabs (subdued using USAF spice brown color criteria) above the unit patch.(e.g., Army Ranger, Sapper, Air Commando, SERE, etc.)

Come to think of it, what would be good as far as the ES patch goes? Right sleeve option? Not sure if there's really enough room for it over the nametape on OCPs.

Velcro on the sleeve could actually prove handy. Show up to mission base with ES patch on, change the patch to something that reflects your assignment. (If you're communicator qualified, pull off ES patch, put on commo patch, for example.)

Another idea: Maybe use the upper portion of the left sleeve for duty position brassards. There's precedence for such things in both the Army and Air Force. Just have a batch of them at the mission base, people get assigned to positions, they slap on a brassard. It would also be a handy way to close out mission base, "Hey, we don't have the MRO brassard back, is someone still on the radio?" Make it a practice to turn it in when you sign out.

Just some additional thoughts.


Eclipse

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 18, 2018, 02:48:05 PM
Come to think of it, what would be good as far as the ES patch goes?
Retirement - they come from an era without ES badges and need to go in the shadobox.

Quote from: Hawk200 on August 18, 2018, 02:48:05 PM
Another idea: Maybe use the upper portion of the left sleeve for duty position brassards.

Please no.

CAWG uses them for some reason during encampments.

They look ridiculous.

"That Others May Zoom"

Hawk200

Quote from: Eclipse on August 18, 2018, 04:21:15 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on August 18, 2018, 02:48:05 PM
Come to think of it, what would be good as far as the ES patch goes?
Retirement - they come from an era without ES badges and need to go in the shadobox.
They have their uses. Cadets tend to be pretty proud to earn them, and they earn the patch before they get anything else. They're not mandatory, but it's a good patch to be wearing when you get to a mission base.

Size wise, the current Goofy patch is probably too big to put over a nametag. I'm thinking to place it on the right sleeve under the flag, or else size it down to something that would fit over a nametape. (Just allowing it on the sleeve would be a lot easier than resizing.)

Quote from: Eclipse on August 18, 2018, 04:21:15 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on August 18, 2018, 02:48:05 PM
Another idea: Maybe use the upper portion of the left sleeve for duty position brassards.

Please no.

CAWG uses them for some reason during encampments.

They look ridiculous.
Haven't seen the CAWG ones, so don't have any frame of reference on them. I'm just thinking that duty position identifiers during a mission would be useful, with the stipulation that they come off after the mission (or SAREX.) They don't need to be worn anyplace other than there.

I'm sure we could come up with something that wouldn't look ridiculous. Something with practical purpose shouldn't be garish.

Eclipse





I swear I've seen them worn with blues as well, but could not find a quick photo.  I purposely trimmed out
the wearer's identity as it's not their fault they are just doing what they are told.

Why do people need "position identifiers" in CAP?  Is there ever any confusion over who is doing what at a base
that can't be solved by asking?

I've seen so much time and effort wasted over vests, tags, chairs, t-shirts, hats, especially hats, everyone wants a hat.

Q: Where's the CUL?

A: Over by the radios.

Q: Where is the IC?

A: In the ICP.

Q: Who is my Flight Commander?

A: The person standing there telling you what to do...

Etc., etc.

I suppose in a public ES environment with hundreds of people who don't know each
other there is justification beyond supporting Indonesia and FEMA grants, but in a CAP
context, if you don't know who these people are, you either don't need to, or you were not paying attention.


"That Others May Zoom"

Luis R. Ramos

So you advocate using ICS structure, you advocate using ICS forms. But you do not advocate using ICS identifiers. Remember these identifiers are not for us but for the visitors. Assuming that CAP is sent to work where other agencies are using the ICS structure, you still will not use them?

Ev en among us, there is still need to know the ICS positions.

Members arrive after a briefing is made, and are told to report to the CUL. So they go over there and find, as some wings do, four radios one for CC1, another for CC2, another Air 1, and Air 2. Each one with an operator and a captain standing over. They report to the Captain thinking he is the CUL however the CUL is really operating a radio because of X reason. 

The IC of Event XYZ is going to the CAP member with the highest grade thinking that is our IC when in fact he is I don't know, a CUL?

I think the ICS identifier idea is great.



Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

Hawk200

Quote from: Eclipse on August 18, 2018, 04:45:00 PM





I agree, those are kind of hideous.

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on August 18, 2018, 05:11:11 PM
I think the ICS identifier idea is great.

I wasn't really thinking ICS identifiers, but may not be a bad idea.

The Army and the Air Force have a simple "patch" type of identifier that is worn on the top of the left sleeve pocket, we could do the same thing.

In the bandying about ideas earlier, we haven't really identified anything for that position, just wearing a unit patch. Still plenty of area left. But, I would definitely make it clear that it's not a free for all section of the uniform. Authorized patches only, only in specific settings. No "That Guy," or "Secret Squirrel" types of joke/novelty tabs.

arajca

Interestingly, brassards are not authorized with CAP uniforms, as they are not mentioned in CAPM 39-1. The only position identifiers listed are the Commander badge and Cadet First Sergeant  diamond.

supertigerCH

good heavens... can the goofy/pluto patch just be retired already?  i don't tend to be very picky about the clothing CAP wears (like many people i'm much more focused on utility & job performance)... but that patch is one of the least professional looking things on the CAP uniform.