Hi all... ok, who went? with how many cadets? SMs?
and what was your experience with the CAP participation results?
We had 5 cadets, and 5 SMs... after the SNAFU Friday which extended into Saturday morning (i.e, ~1:00 am). We kept out unit together, stayed on base to see if we would be tasked in the morning, no improvement then either... so the command decision was made: we pulled our cadets... called parents to update them, took them to breakfast, changed into civies, and enjoyed the Air Show on Saturday, as a unit activity.
I know other squadrons pulled out and went home Friday.
What happened? Please fill those of us in that could not go! Sounds like some interesting gossip!
Quote from: acarlson on May 13, 2007, 01:12:22 PM
Hi all... ok, who went? with how many cadets? SMs?
and what was your experience with the CAP participation results?
We had 5 cadets, and 5 SMs... after the SNAFU Friday which extended into Saturday morning (i.e, ~1:00 am). We kept out unit together, stayed on base to see if we would be tasked in the morning, no improvement then either... so the command decision was made: we pulled our cadets... called parents to update them, took them to breakfast, changed into civies, and enjoyed the Air Show on Saturday, as a unit activity.
I know other squadrons pulled out and went home Friday.
Agree with that assessment - 1000000%
Quote from: mikeylikey on May 13, 2007, 01:18:30 PM
What happened? Please fill those of us in that could not go! Sounds like some interesting gossip!
It was like the CAP organizers signed up 1100 people and expected 1000 people to cancel or something. Not enough food for the cadets (only 1 slice of pizza per persons for lunch on Sat), no tasking of flights, no breaks if you were lucky of enough to get tasked, no contact numbers for Command Staff, no list of room assignment for Squadron Officers to know what building and room their cadets were in... I could go on.
And Officers (at least 50), including myself offered not only suggestions but even offer to help out by signing people in, contraband check, walk cadets to rooms, etc.
"They" said don't worry we have it under control.
My cadets did not get housing until 0000 on Sat and didn't sleep until 0100 then were woken up at 0445.
Quote from: captrncap on May 13, 2007, 03:44:30 PM
Quote from: mikeylikey on May 13, 2007, 01:18:30 PM
What happened? Please fill those of us in that could not go! Sounds like some interesting gossip!
.............cut............
My cadets did not get housing until 0000 on Sat and didn't sleep until 0100 then were woken up at 0445.
I know SNAFU's and FUBAR's happen, but be careful regs state cadets are to get 6-8 hours of sleep a night.
Most likely nothing you could have done.
Wow, I am glad we pulled our cadets out early then.
I bet this is going to make Squad'ns think about offering again when this gets out to the general CAP.
Quote from: CadetProgramGuy on May 13, 2007, 10:43:03 PM
Quote from: captrncap on May 13, 2007, 03:44:30 PM
.............cut............
My cadets did not get housing until 0000 on Sat and didn't sleep until 0100 then were woken up at 0445.
I know SNAFU's and FUBAR's happen, but be careful regs state cadets are to get 6-8 hours of sleep a night. Most likely nothing you could have done.
ummm well, Yes... preaching to the choir here ...
I believe the regs spell it... C-P-P-T !
... and D-A-N-G-E-R-O-U-S.....
hence we pulled our cadets out ... and took care of them...
Quote from: 2nd LT Fairchild on May 13, 2007, 11:00:43 PM
Wow, I am glad we pulled our cadets out early then.
I bet this is going to make Squad'ns think about offering again when this gets out to the general CAP.
Yeah, but where was the breakdown? On USAF side or CAP. That wasn't clear. In the future, perhaps it just needs closer coordination with USAF well in advance of the activity.
Several of the items sound similar to what I experienced a few years back...interesting...
Quote from: acarlson on May 13, 2007, 11:05:40 PM
Quote from: CadetProgramGuy on May 13, 2007, 10:43:03 PM
Quote from: captrncap on May 13, 2007, 03:44:30 PM
.............cut............
My cadets did not get housing until 0000 on Sat and didn't sleep until 0100 then were woken up at 0445.
I know SNAFU's and FUBAR's happen, but be careful regs state cadets are to get 6-8 hours of sleep a night. Most likely nothing you could have done.
ummm well, Yes... preaching to the choir here ...
I believe the regs spell it... C-P-P-T !
... and D-A-N-G-E-R-O-U-S.....
hence we pulled our cadets out ... and took care of them...
Choir or not, enemies of CAP who are familiar with our regs....(waiting on your own mental pictures) will try to hang this story for all it's worth.
Quote from: CadetProgramGuy on May 14, 2007, 12:33:43 AM
Quote from: acarlson on May 13, 2007, 11:05:40 PM
Quote from: CadetProgramGuy on May 13, 2007, 10:43:03 PM
Quote from: captrncap on May 13, 2007, 03:44:30 PM
.............cut............
My cadets did not get housing until 0000 on Sat and didn't sleep until 0100 then were woken up at 0445.
I know SNAFU's and FUBAR's happen, but be careful regs state cadets are to get 6-8 hours of sleep a night. Most likely nothing you could have done.
ummm well, Yes... preaching to the choir here ...
I believe the regs spell it... C-P-P-T !
... and D-A-N-G-E-R-O-U-S.....
hence we pulled our cadets out ... and took care of them...
Choir or not, enemies of CAP who are familiar with our regs....(waiting on your own mental pictures) will try to hang this story for all it's worth.
Where was the breakdown that caused the problems?
Sorry to hear it went bad. From the pre-planning emails I received it seemed like most things were on track. Perhaps it was just the HUGE amount of people at DIX/McGuire that threw billeting out-of-whack.
it was like they had not planned this i heard that a lot of cadet got sick for the hambragers not me thought and the pool i heard was very bad !!!!!!
I heard the same thing about the food ^^ Too bad......you go to help out and leave with food poisoning! AWESOME
Quote from: lilred36781 on May 14, 2007, 09:29:45 PM
it was like they had not planned this i heard that a lot of cadet got sick for the hambragers not me thought and the pool i heard was very bad !!!!!!
BAD POOL?! Now that crosses the line. We need immediate investigations with a special emphases on this pool matter.
Quote from: JC004 on May 14, 2007, 10:08:30 PM
Quote from: lilred36781 on May 14, 2007, 09:29:45 PM
it was like they had not planned this i heard that a lot of cadet got sick for the hamburgers not me thought and the pool i heard was very bad !!!!!!
BAD POOL?! Now that crosses the line. We need immediate investigations with a special emphases on this pool matter.
Funny......I watched them fill the pool in at DIX 7 years ago with dirt. Is there a second pool? I know the one by the O-Club was shut down for years. Or was it the pool at McGuire? Also......whats the deal with this McGuire-Dix Joint Reserve Base rumor I heard. If anything it should be Dix-McGuire......sounds better (think 70's adult film star)
Quote from: lilred36781 on May 14, 2007, 09:29:45 PM
it was like they had not planned this i heard that a lot of cadet got sick for the hambragers not me thought and the pool i heard was very bad !!!!!!
HAHAHAHA...I can't believe I missed that before. I guess you could say the Hamburgers were nothing to "
BRAG" about! hahahhahahahha
I went by myself, but there were many cadets from my group present (I'm on group staff).
The number 1 problem was that there were too many people there. Too many to feed, too many to inprocess in one day, too many to control. Was it NJWG's fault? Yes. They didn't limit the registration. I was actually glad to see some units drop out. Seems that only the best and strongest were left by sunday. I noticed that about 50% of officers understood that we weren't there to watch an air show, but to support and augment the Air Force and service the guests of McGuire AFB and that mission accomplishment is a priority over what type of pizza a cadet eats. Everyone got housed. Everyone got fed (although not easily). I've heard many rumors about cadets getting sick, but the only cases that I have seen paperwork for were from friday night with cadets who ate at Wendy's and got sick off of uncooked chicken. The BBQ was a miss since it was at night with no lighting (at all) and in the rain, but those who volunteered to cook on the spot, got yelled at by freaked out "parent" officers. All mishaps were handled properly.
Here's what wasn't:
Pool party... cadets took over the indoor pool (at Ft Dix) and forgot that they aren't allowed to make out. They were completely out of control.
Cadets trashed... and I mean TRASHED the barracks when they left. Chinese food packages found in lockers, garbage all over, clothing, ipods, uniforms left all over, etc. It took 10 sea cadets and 10 CAP cadets all day sunday to clean up. I left around 7pm and they were still cleaning. Completely shameful.
No one had been assigned to details prior to arrivals which left a lot of confusion on everyone's part for the duration of the event.
However, it was an overall success. The base commander was thrilled with us and the fact that so many of his airmen were able to enjoy mother's day with their families, that it saved tens of thousands of dollars in man hours for the Air Force and that all guests to McGuire were treated very well by our members. THAT to me is what counts.
Quote from: afgeo4 on May 15, 2007, 06:29:53 AM
I went by myself...
Quote from: afgeo4 on May 15, 2007, 06:29:53 AM
.... Completely shameful.
I agree... it was shameful... but I'm not talking about the cadets behavior.
Quote from: afgeo4 on May 15, 2007, 06:29:53 AM
However, it was an overall success. The base commander was thrilled with us and the fact that so many of his airmen were able to enjoy mother's day with their families, that it saved tens of thousands of dollars in man hours for the Air Force and that all guests to McGuire were treated very well by our members. THAT to me is what counts.
well Capt. as long as the AF base commander is thrilled ...
...(boy am I glad you don't work with cadets.)
what counts to
me is the safety of our cadets.
Statr from the beginning. What was the activity? What was supposed to happen? What happened?
Quote from: flyguy06 on May 15, 2007, 04:14:36 PM
Statr from the beginning. What was the activity? What was supposed to happen? What happened?
I asked that Q of the Cadet Colonel in charge. His response:
1) The activity was the 2007 McGuire AFB Air Expo
2) We were tasked with assisting the air force with a variety of jobs and work details including parking, entrance control, environmental services, and special assignments
3) We supported the air force in such a large way, we never received a negative comment, but received hundreds of thanks from sergeants on the flight line right on up through the base commander. We had our problems, but they were overcome and we get the mission done.
From another source:
An accurate quote from an Air Force officer this weekend, and former Spaatzen, summed this up nicely by saying, "The only people mad at CAP, is CAP."
OK well, the airshow had quite a few incidents. A lot of these could've been avoided but with 1400 people, it was difficult. While the end result of us helping at the airshow was accomplished, the quality of care and supervision that cadets recieved was not the greatest.
Now almost any CAP event will have a couple of bumps, but this was probably the one with the most bumps. I don't want to go into details because I know the higher ups are discussing exactly what happened and such tonight, but as soon as they tell their story, I'll tell mine.
You had 1400 CAP volunteers at one event? what kind of incidents occured?
According to what I've read on CS - no dead, no serious injuries, some food issues, some supervision issues, some lessons learned.
Depending on who you listen to, it ran from an absolute disaster to a qualified success. The bashers have nothing good to say, and the folks with positive attitudes acknowledge the mistakes, and look to move on to the next opportunity. Also, the number was probably closer to 1100 than 1400.
It sounds like this should have been handled more like an NCSA then a standard run of the mill weekend airshow with those numbers.
Sounds like a major migraine. But, if the AF was happy, maybe they'll give NJWG another chance next year to get it better organized.
*sigh* I'm just going to go back to my airplane and be a happy CAP pilot >:D
I honestly don't think that we'll ever know the true number of people that came. Check-in was so messed up that we might never get a real number. Also came and simply left before signing in. There really wasn't a check-out and a lot of people left during the airshow, some within a couple hours.
Quote from: SarDragon on May 16, 2007, 05:22:36 AM
Also, the number was probably closer to 1100 than 1400.
From what I understood from Command Staff at the end of the event, the number who reported in was 1,210 CAP personnel, of which 950 were cadets.
Quote from: SarDragon on May 16, 2007, 05:22:36 AM
...no dead, no serious injuries...
Only by sheer luck, and not by any planning, supervision, or protection. A cadet could have easily died or been seriously injured and someone might not have even discovered them until morning. Perhaps a CAP Chaplain somewhere was just praying really hard for the cadets at this activity...
A cadet may die at any activity, supervised or not. The officers did what they had to do and overcame the burdens and challenges to take care of their men and women. That's what the officer credo is. Mission First! People Always!
This mission was accomplished. It was challenging. There's lots to learn. Let's move on and not kill each other over what was an extremely difficult task for all of us. I would just like to praise those that stuck around and carried out a mission for America. I know most don't even think about it, but the 305th AMW and 514th AMW were able to send a lot of airmen home for mother's day because of us. So what if we had just one slice of pizza?
Well what really bugged me about this activity was the lack of accountablity. When the fire alarm went off in 5213, there was no accountabilty check because none had been established from before. When we went back into our barracks, a cadet was found still sleeping in his bunk. If it was a real fire, he probably would've been dead, but the thing that really gets me is that no one would've known he was missing.
Quote from: CASH172 on May 17, 2007, 03:54:31 AM
Well what really bugged me about this activity was the lack of accountablity. When the fire alarm went off in 5213, there was no accountabilty check because none had been established from before. When we went back into our barracks, a cadet was found still sleeping in his bunk. If it was a real fire, he probably would've been dead, but the thing that really gets me is that no one would've known he was missing.
Quote from: afgeo4 on May 17, 2007, 01:46:51 AMThis mission was accomplished. It was challenging. There's lots to learn. Let's move on and not kill each other over what was an extremely difficult task for all of us.
Can we do that now? Otherwise, we are beating a dead horse, and wasting time and bandwidth.
Quote from: afgeo4 on May 17, 2007, 01:46:51 AM
....So what if we had just one slice of pizza?
Captain, I hope you're not working with cadets!.
Quote from: acarlson on May 17, 2007, 09:55:31 AM
Quote from: afgeo4 on May 17, 2007, 01:46:51 AM
....So what if we had just one slice of pizza?
Captain, I hope you're not working with cadets!.
I always have, do, and will. Perhaps the cadets I work with have gotten past being wienies?
Integrity First
Service Before Self
Excellence in All We Do
By the way, any opinions on the blatant disregard for regulations and instructions by the members of the Pennsylvania Wing when it comes to uniform headgear? They all showed up in unit distinctive orange baseball caps when NJ Wing does not authorized them (expressly stated in the regs that only the unit cc can authorize them for their unit wear) and in the activity sign up, the wear of unit distinctive headgear was expressly prohibited. Only the BDU cap was authorized.
Quote from: afgeo4 on May 17, 2007, 11:55:46 AM
By the way, any opinions on the blatant disregard for regulations and instructions by the members of the Pennsylvania Wing when it comes to uniform headgear? They all showed up in unit distinctive orange baseball caps when NJ Wing does not authorized them (expressly stated in the regs that only the unit cc can authorize them for their unit wear) and in the activity sign up, the wear of unit distinctive headgear was expressly prohibited. Only the BDU cap was authorized.
hold on there high-speed. The question was asked by a colleague of mine on what the deal was with not allowing anything but BDU Caps. Here is the response received from Major McGuire and forwarded to me:
QuoteI appreciate your kind words and am find myself troubled by the remainder of your email. So that it is clear, this is not all about you or even your wing it is all about presenting a professional, uniformed, positive image of Civil Air Patrol to the United States Air Force.
We have someone thousand two hundred people registered as part of this command representing each and every wing within the Northeast Region. I attribute this amazing response in part due to the way that the activity was presented and the manner in which it was reinforced. As part of this message an equipment list was published, disseminated, and posted on our web page.
The equipment list posted in February and reinforced ever since clearly outlines the issue of wing specific covers. Being that I am the author and approving authority of the correspondence in question, I am happy to share with you the intent of this consistent message, a message that 1200 other registered participants appear to have understood.
The intent was to address NJWG members. You see, here in New Jersey we have a blue wing specific cover that has our unit number on it. The message was clear, there are to be none at the air show so we can present a uniformed organization. In my 29 years of CAP service it has been my understanding that wing specific covers are specific to each wing and should not be worn outside of the wing. With this in mind, I hope you see that this is not at all about you or your wing, rather it was all about addressing the members of NJWG.
I find your statement that this a "a direct affront to the members of Pennsylvania" offensive and without merit. There has been a consistent message presented to the region concerning the show. The messages clearly outlined the goals, objectives, and requirements for participation in this event and moreover, have not deviated since being posted in early February 2007. Similarly, my contact information has also been available since then making the timing of your email is awkward at best, days prior to the activity.
Now..... Some Wings (PAWG) do not allow the member to wear anything but a distinctive orange cover. The logistics of ordering BDU Covers for the PAWG members going to McGuire were difficult. Try getting vendors to ship 100+ BDU Covers. I called every MCSS withing 300 miles of DIX/McGuire. The answere I allways got was....."we have 3 maybe 4". Lets face it......aafes does not have the BDU Covers in stock.....MCSS stores are moving their stocks......and not replenishing them. Also......does it make any sense to pay for a cover.....so you can go to McGuire to make money for your unit? NO........I repeat N O!! IF the Air Force would have come down and said "we want all CAP in BDU Covers", thats one thing........but they DID NOT! The whole planning and coordination was terrible.
Oh....and to make it clear, PAWG is the only Wing that has written permission from both NHQ and the Air Force to wear a distinctive orange cover. It may date back to 1951, but it is still permission that no other wing can say they have.
I hate the ORANGE hats......and would rather wear BDU Covers......but that won't be happening. However, the PAWG members followed "higher" orders than what the airshow planners were dishing out.
I hope the people involved with this years air show.....DO NOT have anything to do with it next year. The NJ/PA State Director is furious at what happened. He says the AF/Army is not at all happy with the job CAP did. He is still getting phone calls.
Quote from: mikeylikey on May 17, 2007, 01:26:41 PM
I hope the people involved with this years air show.....DO NOT have anything to do with it next year. The NJ/PA State Director is furious at what happened. He says the AF/Army is not at all happy with the job CAP did. He is still getting phone calls.
Well I just found out that the NYWG IG is also investgating this as well.
We had a contingent from our wing (ME) go. A SMSGT (Not cadet) summed it up well. Logistics were not prepared well. Organizers tried to micromanage. Units weren't pre-tasked and briefed on their duties, the event organizers were trying to use people as they found them, instead of giving the unit OIC's the task and allowing them to execute.
It all comes down to planning and, frankly, it's pretty consistent with what I see come out of CAP; little planning, hastened execution, poor result.
Not being familiar with any of the details and logistics other than what was written here, it seems like what was missing was competent Command and Control. An event of this size cannot be micromanaged or run haphazardly. 1200 personnel requires extensive planning with pre-event assignments and policies communicated well in advance of the event. There should have been (and perhaps there were) meetings of all the C&C elements prior to the event to review resources and needs so that on the day all showed up, it simply became an execution of the plan that everyone was already well versed in. This should have been run like a mission with and IC and staff.
Just my 2 cents on how this size of an event needs to be run and don't mean to be critical of anyone since I don't know all the facts.
Quote from: afgeo4 on May 17, 2007, 03:59:48 PM
It is the responsibility of EVERY CAP member to purchase CAP authorized uniforms.
Umm.....NO. Read below THIS IS WHAT MEMBERS ARE REQUIRED TO HAVE. THATS IT! BDU's don't fall into that category...
Quotea. Minimum Basic Service Uniform. Male: Short-sleeve, light blue shirt; dark blue trousers; blue
belt/silver buckle, blue flight cap; black shoes, and socks. Insignia: CAP nameplate, shoulder patch,
collar/lapel insignia, embroidered epaulet sleeve, and flight cap emblem. Female: Short-sleeve light
blue blouse; Dark blue skirt or slacks; flight cap; neutral nylon hose; black shoes; black handbag.
Insignia: CAP nameplate, shoulder patch, collar/lapel insignia, embroidered epaulet sleeve, and flight
cap emblem.
b. CAP Distinctive Basic Uniform (senior members only). Male: Short-sleeve, white aviator shirt;
gray trousers; black belt; black shoes and socks. Insignia: CAP nameplate, embroidered epaulet sleeve.
Female: Short-sleeve, white aviator shirt; gray slacks or skirt; plain black shoes. Insignia: CAP
nameplate, embroidered epaulet sleeve.
I am just not finding the specifics in the regulations that say CAP Baseball caps can't be worn outside of the wing authorizing them. It does says the UNIT Commander can authorize them. Well the PAWG Commander authorized them. Major McGuire or whoever else was running the show is not the "Unit Commander", they are the activity coordinator. Big word.....ACTIVITY. Now.....if NER Commander came down and said PAWG.....you MUST wear bdu covers, thats a different story.
On the subject of Orange ballcaps........if I were able to at this very instance pull the letter from AF/NHQ authorizing PAWG members to wear orange ballcaps to activities outside of PAWG I would. However, I only make it up to Wing HQ occasionally. I guarantee you though.....When I do I will make sure every wing commander gets a copy......so we don't have this confusion in the future. Also be prepared......Pineda likes the orange caps.....and has dropped many hints at making it mandatory organization wide to adopt.
Like I said before.....I hate the orange caps.....but don't try to dictate regs, without citing them in your post. Please if I am so off on this......post the citation and I will drop it.
I dont have a prob with orange hats or any other color but I do think that all members should also have the standard BDU hat for uniformity sake when you have to be in a formation with other squadrons or wings. For example, a region encampment. To have mixed headgear in a formation looks crappy. Aside from certain activities, I think various headgear is fine but everyone should also have the standard for wear when appropriate even if they are authorized by NHQ to do something else individually.
For a multi-Wing event like this they should have followed the CAP standard for headgear in order to present a uniform appearance to the public.
Now as to the planning that should go into a 1-2000 CAP member event with what I suppose were dozens and dozens of different units, I have a hard time imagining the amount of planning that would have to be done in order to pull it off. correctly.
Quote from: RiverAux on May 17, 2007, 09:51:07 PM
For a multi-Wing event like this they should have followed the CAP standard for headgear in order to present a uniform appearance to the public.
Now as to the planning that should go into a 1-2000 CAP member event with what I suppose were dozens and dozens of different units, I have a hard time imagining the amount of planning that would have to be done in order to pull it off. correctly.
Well there is the point. If you don't have the time to spend planning an event of this size, then the event is too large to have and should be scaled back to meet your abilities. Its very simple.
I agree that there should've been a limit as to how many could attend, but what I don't understand is how so many units agreed to come. Did someone promise your cadets candy if you would go, cause I can't believe that so many people even bothered to come.
Quote from: afgeo4 on May 17, 2007, 11:55:46 AM
By the way, any opinions on the blatant disregard for regulations and instructions by the members of the Pennsylvania Wing when it comes to uniform headgear? They all showed up in unit distinctive orange baseball caps when NJ Wing does not authorized them (expressly stated in the regs that only the unit cc can authorize them for their unit wear) and in the activity sign up, the wear of unit distinctive headgear was expressly prohibited. Only the BDU cap was authorized.
I can only comment on the members attending from our squadron...
Keeping in the spirit of unity for all of CAP, for this multi-wing event... and at the request of the NJWG organizers of this event, all our members purchased and wore the BDU cover... proudly.
Capt. Lurye, I apologize for my comment to you. It was unprofessional, and certainly uncalled for.
It was not my intent to start "Wing-Wars" ... If NYWG puts out the call, I will answer and bring my BDU cover.
Funny..
....all roads lead to uniform discussion!
Quote from: 2nd LT Fairchild on May 18, 2007, 01:33:43 AM
Funny..
....all roads lead to uniform discussion!
Because its one of our main sources of problems
Considering all of the issues that came up during the weekend, I think uniforms were the least of anyone's problems.
Now trying to get everyone in the same uniform and presenting a uniform image would've been hard because of the multiple agencies involved. Some reason, sea cadets were banned from wearing BDUs. I don't know who made that decision but sea cadets were forced to wear their two piece work uniform(I don't know the offical name).
Not for nothing....
But did anyone think of using an Incident Command System type structure for this event? ICS is usuable for just about anything nowadays, not just disasters and ES. Just a thought.
Quote from: CASH172 on May 17, 2007, 10:24:35 PM
I agree that there should've been a limit as to how many could attend, but what I don't understand is how so many units agreed to come. Did someone promise your cadets candy if you would go, cause I can't believe that so many people even bothered to come.
As I heard from our cadets, they were told that they would get to meet the pilots from the thunderbirds; that's why they went.
Quote from: Sgt. Savage on May 18, 2007, 05:24:13 PM
Quote from: CASH172 on May 17, 2007, 10:24:35 PM
I agree that there should've been a limit as to how many could attend, but what I don't understand is how so many units agreed to come. Did someone promise your cadets candy if you would go, cause I can't believe that so many people even bothered to come.
As I heard from our cadets, they were told that they would get to meet the pilots from the thunderbirds; that's why they went.
Here's the recruiting info page:
http://www.njwg.cap.gov/airshow/index.html
Seems like it was oversold.
All meals free too... hmmm didn't I read it was one slice of pizza?
Basically what we have here is poor project planning from the getgo. WHat a shame.
You don't just invite bodies and not have a plan to support them. I'm just glad that we pulled our squadron before we walked into this particluar minefield. My cadets are breathing a sigh of relief.
It might have been a success in the eyes of the AF, but as a whole this was one mitigated failure based on what was written here..
The real reason why all these people showed up was a promise of money. The scheme was to have all these cadets working concession stands, the profits from which were to be divided and distributed according to how many people showed up from each unit. The units would get to keep these funds.
I understood it to be the case were CAP was going to run ALL concession stands at the show. Not so. We only ran two, part-time. The amount of money raised was something like $1200. Half went to us. Divide that among the people and everyone got probably just under $.50 or so per person. Worth it? Dunno. How much is an experience of spending a gorgeous weekend out on the ramp of McGuire watching the thunderbirds worth to ya?
Very interesting point indeed.
Yes in looking back in hind sight, I would agree that this was a factor in thinking about sending our squadron. Being in the middle of nowhere, and being low on finances, this sounded rather attractive for sure. Ultimately though, sounder thinking prevailed for us.
But this comment reveals a lot more about the financial state of many (if not nearly all) squadrons. Perahaps, a discussion on raising squadron funds, 'properly' throughout the year, would be a good topic to have here.
QuoteThe real reason why all these people showed up was a promise of money.
Quote from: LtCol White on May 17, 2007, 07:24:10 PM
I dont have a prob with orange hats or any other color but I do think that all members should also have the standard BDU hat for uniformity sake when you have to be in a formation with other squadrons or wings. For example, a region encampment. To have mixed headgear in a formation looks crappy. Aside from certain activities, I think various headgear is fine but everyone should also have the standard for wear when appropriate even if they are authorized by NHQ to do something else individually.
In the USAF organizational hats are ONLY allowed while in your home unit/ state. USAF regs specifically prohibit the wear of unit/ organizational hats at other times. Shouldn't CAP regs be the same/ similiar?
Quote from: afgeo4 on May 20, 2007, 04:40:13 AM
The real reason why all these people showed up was a promise of money. The scheme was to have all these cadets working concession stands, the profits from which were to be divided and distributed according to how many people showed up from each unit. The units would get to keep these funds.
I understood it to be the case were CAP was going to run ALL concession stands at the show. Not so. We only ran two, part-time. The amount of money raised was something like $1200. Half went to us. Divide that among the people and everyone got probably just under $.50 or so per person. Worth it? Dunno. How much is an experience of spending a gorgeous weekend out on the ramp of McGuire watching the thunderbirds worth to ya?
Thats wierd... I was assigned to work the concession stand area and I only remember CAP being assigned to 1 stand. And, we were there 0900-1800 on both Saturday and Sunday.
Page 62 of the CAPM 39-1 states:
"Only AF-style or Army-style BDU cap will be worn."
Quote from: rebowman on May 21, 2007, 03:55:56 PM
Page 62 of the CAPM 39-1 states:
"Only AF-style or Army-style BDU cap will be worn."
And page 41 says this:
Quote4. CAP Baseball Cap: May be worn with the utility uniforms if authorized by the unit commander. The color, material, unit designation, or silk screen organizational emblem or badge will be prescribed by the unit commander. Emblem or badge, if authorized, will be centered 1/2 inch above visor.
The statement you posted just means we can't wear any other style of the BDU cap other than the AF and Army style...no Marine 5 Point covers...
Quote from: jimmydeanno on May 21, 2007, 04:10:02 PM
Quote from: rebowman on May 21, 2007, 03:55:56 PM
Page 62 of the CAPM 39-1 states:
"Only AF-style or Army-style BDU cap will be worn."
And page 41 says this:
Quote4. CAP Baseball Cap: May be worn with the utility uniforms if authorized by the unit commander. The color, material, unit designation, or silk screen organizational emblem or badge will be prescribed by the unit commander. Emblem or badge, if authorized, will be centered 1/2 inch above visor.
The statement you posted just means we can't wear any other style of the BDU cap other than the AF and Army style...no Marine 5 Point covers...
Thats because the Marine BDU hat has never been authorized
I understand that, I was clarifying that the quote from the reg states what style of BDU cover may be worn rather than exempting the wear of a unit hat.
BTW [off topic], USMC covers have 8 points, not 5.
[/off topic]
Quote from: SarDragon on May 22, 2007, 10:49:23 PM
BTW [off topic], USMC covers have 8 points, not 5.
[/off topic]
Well...that's more than half-way there...
The organizational cap has to be authorized by the unit commander for wear. At an activity that happens at a higher level, that level's unit commander has to authorize the hat. HE/SHE is the unit commander at that time. For the said event, because the activity was a NJWG activity, the unit commander was Maj McGuire as he was designated. Sure, the hat was authorized by a squadron commander in PA or wherever, but that's not the unit where the activity is taking place. It's someone else's AOR.
Any word on an AAR?
Quote from: mikeylikey on May 24, 2007, 01:24:43 AM
Any word on an AAR?
No, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night (ok, lies).
I do have an exciting DVD from the Army on how to conduct an AAR!
Quote from: mikeylikey on May 24, 2007, 01:24:43 AM
Any word on an AAR?
It's in work. The cadet commander is in the middle of college exams right now. Not sure what the Major's status is.
Quote from: SarDragon on May 24, 2007, 06:32:09 AM
Quote from: mikeylikey on May 24, 2007, 01:24:43 AM
Any word on an AAR?
It's in work. The cadet commander is in the middle of college exams right now. Not sure what the Major's status is.
I sure hope the State Director as well as the Region Commander is invited to the review.
Wing Wars
(sung to the tune of "Star Wars")
Wing Wars!!! ... nothing but Wing Wars!!! ...
Nothing of value... only to hash...
O Ver... say it all O-Ver...
and over, and over, can't let it rest...
Rehash... let's just all re-hash...
Let's not progress here... would not be good...
Flame some... let's just all flame some...
Makes us feel better... sorry I asked.
Wing Wars!!! ... nothing but Wing Wars!!! ...
Nothing of value... please lock this thread ...
Quote from: acarlson on May 24, 2007, 05:57:51 PM
Wing Wars
(sung to the tune of "Star Wars")
Wing Wars!!! ... nothing but Wing Wars!!! ...
Nothing of value... only to hash...
O Ver... say it all O-Ver...
and over, and over, can't let it rest...
Rehash... let's just all re-hash...
Let's not progress here... would not be good...
Flame some... let's just all flame some...
Makes us feel better... sorry I asked.
Wing Wars!!! ... nothing but Wing Wars!!! ...
Nothing of value... please lock this thread ...
Wow......good one! Oh...didn't you bring this topic up and then failed to elaborate for those of us that didnt make the airshow. Yupp....you did.
Quote from: mikeylikey on May 24, 2007, 07:39:37 PM
Quote from: acarlson on May 24, 2007, 05:57:51 PM
Wing Wars
(sung to the tune of "Star Wars")
Wing Wars!!! ... nothing but Wing Wars!!! ...
Nothing of value... only to hash...
O Ver... say it all O-Ver...
and over, and over, can't let it rest...
Rehash... let's just all re-hash...
Let's not progress here... would not be good...
Flame some... let's just all flame some...
Makes us feel better... sorry I asked.
Wing Wars!!! ... nothing but Wing Wars!!! ...
Nothing of value... please lock this thread ...
Wow......good one! Oh...didn't you bring this topic up and then failed to elaborate for those of us that didnt make the airshow. Yupp....you did.
yes that was me... and I refused to provide you, mikeylikey, with food for your gossip column.
My original question was intended for those units who where there... in the spirit of discussion... the spirit, I believe, of the CAPtalk.net boards... not to feed fuel for your personal Wing Wars.
note the line ... "sorry I asked."
Fear not! When I become PAWG CC and invade the surrounding wings, the war will be over!
You kids behave, now.
Interesting song, is there the march of darth pineda?
Back On Topic....
I chatted with our Squadron SMSgt. He went and reports that the whole thing was mishandled grossly. My understanding is that the organizers of the event didn't even know how to set up a stupid chow line. The tasking was ridiculous and to boot, the region DCP claimed that "...cadets are a region asset and upon arrival, they are to be turned over to the region; don't worry about where they are and what their tasking is."
All things considered, the SMSgt equates the event to a chaotic assembly of officers, willing to give commands, and cadets, not willing to accept those commands, and a few individuals that actually gave a rats a$$ enough to put effort into what was going on. Poor planning, too many "Chiefs", undisciplined indians...
McGuire show pictures:
http://encampment.njwg.cap.gov/airshow/index.htm (http://encampment.njwg.cap.gov/airshow/index.htm)
Quote from: Sgt. Savage on May 25, 2007, 12:13:17 PM
the region DCP claimed that "...cadets are a region asset and upon arrival, they are to be turned over to the region; don't worry about where they are and what their tasking is."
hmmm........NO! He still has his job? WOW
IG should look into that!
^^ Agreed. Cool pictures they posted by the way!
Quote from: SJFedor on May 24, 2007, 10:45:50 PM
You kids behave, now.
Interesting song, is there the march of darth pineda?
"once more the sith will rule Maxwell...I mean the Galaxy" >:D
Quote from: mikeylikey on May 25, 2007, 04:01:28 PM
Quote from: Sgt. Savage on May 25, 2007, 12:13:17 PM
the region DCP claimed that "...cadets are a region asset and upon arrival, they are to be turned over to the region; don't worry about where they are and what their tasking is."
hmmm........NO! He still has his job? WOW
Just to add....Sir with no due respect....Oh Hell No!!
- or -
Sir you want to sign this sheet of paper stating this fact while I call the IG?
Uh this is a problem since not all CAP cadets were from NER. Some came from Maryland WG and other wings which are part of MER. Also a lot of cadets were from Sea Cadets and AFJROTC. They couldn't be considered a region asset at all.
They were working and assigned to a Region activity, so yes, they were, at the time, an asset of NER. Everyone had a chance and a choice to withdraw their cadets from the activity if they felt it was the right thing to do. Those still attached to NER for the activity were the assets of NER for the duration of said activity.
For those referencing the IG... please cite regulations and examples of violations of said regulations that you would report to an IG or stop putting threats on this board please.
I'm not even a member of NJWG and I'm starting to feel offended.
Quote from: afgeo4 on May 29, 2007, 01:13:13 AM
They were working and assigned to a Region activity, so yes, they were, at the time, an asset of NER. Everyone had a chance and a choice to withdraw their cadets from the activity if they felt it was the right thing to do. Those still attached to NER for the activity were the assets of NER for the duration of said activity.
For those referencing the IG... please cite regulations and examples of violations of said regulations that you would report to an IG or stop putting threats on this board please.
I'm not even a member of NJWG and I'm starting to feel offended.
I tend to agree here, but I guess it depends on how it was run. I suspect you could run an airshow and say the units are responsible for their people. That'd be insane here and I get the idea it didn't happen that way. When we run a basic cadet activity at the Group level, the cadets are a Group asset...when we run a wing encampment, same deal. But if you run an activity and fail to keep track of anybody at all, well, I dunno... ::shrug::
Quote from: afgeo4 on May 29, 2007, 01:13:13 AM
They were working and assigned to a Region activity, so yes, they were, at the time, an asset of NER. Everyone had a chance and a choice to withdraw their cadets from the activity if they felt it was the right thing to do. Those still attached to NER for the activity were the assets of NER for the duration of said activity.
For those referencing the IG... please cite regulations and examples of violations of said regulations that you would report to an IG or stop putting threats on this board please.
I'm not even a member of NJWG and I'm starting to feel offended.
When the member transferes to NER thorugh e-services then they can be an asset of NER. Until then, they are only a participant, thus the reason for having Participation Letters.
I am offended that the majority of people I speak to/ read about say this activity was a mess. I hope it is managed better next year.
Quote from: mikeylikey on May 29, 2007, 01:26:45 AM
Quote from: afgeo4 on May 29, 2007, 01:13:13 AM
They were working and assigned to a Region activity, so yes, they were, at the time, an asset of NER. Everyone had a chance and a choice to withdraw their cadets from the activity if they felt it was the right thing to do. Those still attached to NER for the activity were the assets of NER for the duration of said activity.
For those referencing the IG... please cite regulations and examples of violations of said regulations that you would report to an IG or stop putting threats on this board please.
I'm not even a member of NJWG and I'm starting to feel offended.
When the member transferes to NER thorugh e-services then they can be an asset of NER. Until then, they are only a participant, thus the reason for having Participation Letters.
I am offended that the majority of people I speak to/ read about say this activity was a mess. I hope it is managed better next year.
Alright, I'll bite. Describe to me the limitations of a "participant" as in what makes a participant with a letter not responsible to the event commander?
While at it, please let me know who is responsible for the said "participant" at the event (I'm gonna guess the event CC is). If I'm right on that guess then I'm going to guess that if the event CC is responsible for the member then the member is tasked by the CC as well since it's a 2 way street (remember, we work in a military command structure).
IF A COMMAND ELEMENT IS DESIGNATED AND A CAP MEMBER IS ASSIGNED (by choice or otherwise) TO SUCH AN ELEMENT, THAT MEMBER BECOMES A HUMAN ASSET (not property, but asset) OF SAID ELEMENT. THE ASSIGNMENT DOES
NOT HAVE TO BE REFLECTED ON CAP.GOV OR THE MML. IT CAN BE REFLECTED ON AN ORDER OR A PARTICIPATION LETTER.
In the Air Force we get to go TDY. We are still members of our units, but while on TDY we are assigned (temporarily) to other units. We answer to those units' commanders and for the duration of the assignment we are their assets. It's the same way in CAP. It CANNOT work otherwise.
Not a complex concept... at least it's not for most.
Quote from: afgeo4 on May 29, 2007, 01:47:02 AM
Quote from: mikeylikey on May 29, 2007, 01:26:45 AM
Quote from: afgeo4 on May 29, 2007, 01:13:13 AM
They were working and assigned to a Region activity, so yes, they were, at the time, an asset of NER. Everyone had a chance and a choice to withdraw their cadets from the activity if they felt it was the right thing to do. Those still attached to NER for the activity were the assets of NER for the duration of said activity.
For those referencing the IG... please cite regulations and examples of violations of said regulations that you would report to an IG or stop putting threats on this board please.
I'm not even a member of NJWG and I'm starting to feel offended.
When the member transfers to NER through e-services then they can be an asset of NER. Until then, they are only a participant, thus the reason for having Participation Letters.
I am offended that the majority of people I speak to/ read about say this activity was a mess. I hope it is managed better next year.
Alright, I'll bite. Describe to me the limitations of a "participant" as in what makes a participant with a letter not responsible to the event commander?
While at it, please let me know who is responsible for the said "participant" at the event (I'm gonna guess the event CC is). If I'm right on that guess then I'm going to guess that if the event CC is responsible for the member then the member is tasked by the CC as well since it's a 2 way street (remember, we work in a military command structure).
IF A COMMAND ELEMENT IS DESIGNATED AND A CAP MEMBER IS ASSIGNED (by choice or otherwise) TO SUCH AN ELEMENT, THAT MEMBER BECOMES A HUMAN ASSET (not property, but asset) OF SAID ELEMENT. THE ASSIGNMENT DOES NOT HAVE TO BE REFLECTED ON CAP.GOV OR THE MML. IT CAN BE REFLECTED ON AN ORDER OR A PARTICIPATION LETTER.
In the Air Force we get to go TDY. We are still members of our units, but while on TDY we are assigned (temporarily) to other units. We answer to those units' commanders and for the duration of the assignment we are their assets. It's the same way in CAP. It CANNOT work otherwise.
Not a complex concept... at least it's not for most.
Sure.....whatever. I don't care anymore either way. I have been doing the military thing for many years, most of which has been as an officer. I completely understand TDY, but please don't compare anything military to CAP. Perhaps 30 years ago you could relate the military and CAP, but CAP has moved SO FAR AWAY from the military system, it is completely its own monster.
I was not there......so I will shut up after this. To answere your first question, of what makes a participant with a PL not responsible to the event commander. My response......when the Event Commander and his "staff" have no regard for the well-being of the particpants as demonstrated. When he and his "staff" fail to acknowledge problems before hand, and when those issues arise, completely ignore them. THAT IS MY ANSWERE.
I don't know for sure, but I think that Sea Cadets and JROTC weren't required to sign the participation letters. So they couldn't be considered a NER asset that way. While CAP had overall command of the airshow from all of the cadet side, outside organizations don't have the same kind of jurisdictional authority as say a TDY.
Quote from: CASH172 on May 29, 2007, 04:05:37 AM
I don't know for sure, but I think that Sea Cadets and JROTC weren't required to sign the participation letters. So they couldn't be considered a NER asset that way. While CAP had overall command of the airshow from all of the cadet side, outside organizations don't have the same kind of jurisdictional authority as say a TDY.
Joint command rules apply. They are an asset of the command authority if they agreed to joint command. The other agencies' CC has the right to withdraw from the agreement at any time to my knowledge.
I guess, to elaborate on the story, that our squadron / wing cadets were dispersed between 4 barracks'. One of our officers was given medication that a cadet needed and couldn't find that cadet. Likewise, form 60's are great but, I know which of my cadets are allergic to bee stings, medications and what have you; to remove local command control over our cadets posed numerous safety issues.
These are kids. It's not the same as treating the SM's as assets, it's DEFFINATELY not the same as treating them like AD w/TDY orders. Parents trust that we are caring for their children when they are away. They are not likely to approve of dropping their kids off with a bunch of people they don't know and trusting that they will be cared for in a consistent manner.
QuoteThese are kids. It's not the same as treating the SM's as assets
Yep, darn toot'n, this difference is, if I was treated this way, I would strip off my butter bars, and drive my posterior home, post haste. Or go to the beach whichever is closer...
Regardless, if the cadets were part of the 'wing assets' or not. I am still the one who has to answer to the parents.
"Oh no, Mrs Smith your son Billy was just part of the wing assets, I am so sorry he INSERT HERE, and is scarred for life. but I was no longer responsible."
Horse puckey!
If one of my cadets is is need, he/she is still MY RESPONSIBILITY. If I feel that being a 'wing asset' is detrimental because of P.P.P. then I take them the heck out of there!
I am the one who is going to bring him/her home to mom and dad. And they are expecting them to come back the way they left.
And that includeds close calls and potential caca hitting the fan too.
Quote from: stillamarine on May 18, 2007, 05:12:52 AM
did anyone think of using an Incident Command System type structure for this event? ICS is usuable for just about anything nowadays, not just disasters and ES. Just a thought.
Good point. I was there with about 10 seniors and 20 cadets from my local group, and there were a few things we kept saying to each other during the weekend:
-
This is a great idea, having CAP come out en masse to support the show, and opening it up to CAP members from all over.
- It was neat the way they mixed the cadets together (each flight had cadets from several different wings, plus a few sea scouts, etc.). It gave them a chance to get to know people from different states.
- What a great airshow!
- Logistical and organizational preparations were completely inadequate.
- This operation would have been a perfect chance to test out ICS on a really big scale!
I'm sure some dedicated people put in a lot of time preparing for this event - and the level of advance planning and organization would probably have been fine if 200 people were coming. But when over a thousand are descending upon you on Friday evening, it requires a
lot more organization, a
lot more staff, etc. Meaning...
ICS would have been perfect for this. Each staff area (food, housing, finance, transportation, etc.) could have been handled by a section chief / branch director, with a few people on his/her staff. Each section/branch/team/squad could have had a desk and a radio, located in an ICP for easy inter-branch communication... it would have been very neat to see!
Although many of this year's logistical arrangements were too-little-too-late, it was still a good experience. We got to help the Air Force, see the airshow (twice!), and hang out with our CAP colleagues from other wings, always a rare treat.
And we got to see how CAP folks react when things don't go right. Some grin and bear it, some wait patiently, some find the "pain point" and jump in to help (whether they are wanted or not ::) ), some choose to moan and groan, and some hop back in their vans and head home.
I hope they do it again! I would offer to serve on staff, help with the advance planning, etc... It would be interesting to see how good we might be able to make it.
Maybe next time the event can be run by a huge ICS team made up of members from all the different wings, instead of all the pressure resting on the folks who happen to live nearby.
Well, now that this (first of its kind at this scale) event has been thoroughly thrashed, I'd like to ask - how many of you have offered the constructive criticism items to either the folks who did this year's event, or folks who might be planning the next event?
Unfortunently, the next McGuire Airshow won't be until 2009.
Quote from: SarDragon on May 30, 2007, 10:09:48 PM
Well, now that this (first of its kind at this scale) event has been thoroughly thrashed, I'd like to ask - how many of you have offered the constructive criticism items to either the folks who did this year's event, or folks who might be planning the next event?
I spoke to the NJWG CV at the very end of the event personally (he engaged me) and although I didn't offer any advice on how to improve in the future, he did ask me what I thought may have been problems and he seemed to have been very attentive to what I had to say. I found him to be very receptive to suggestions and opinions in general and I think this type of event would be much better organized next time around, but that's just my personal feeling.
Quote from: CASH172 on May 31, 2007, 12:35:38 AM
Unfortunently, the next McGuire Airshow won't be until 2009.
That gives the organizers twice as long to fix the things that went wrong.
Quote from: afgeo4 on May 31, 2007, 04:08:45 AM
Quote from: SarDragon on May 30, 2007, 10:09:48 PM
Well, now that this (first of its kind at this scale) event has been thoroughly thrashed, I'd like to ask - how many of you have offered the constructive criticism items to either the folks who did this year's event, or folks who might be planning the next event?
I spoke to the NJWG CV at the very end of the event personally (he engaged me) and although I didn't offer any advice on how to improve in the future, he did ask me what I thought may have been problems and he seemed to have been very attentive to what I had to say. I found him to be very receptive to suggestions and opinions in general and I think this type of event would be much better organized next time around, but that's just my personal feeling.
Good on you, George. How many others out there have done the same thing? That's what should be happening now, instead of the bashing that continues half a month after the event.
Having been one of the officers that brought cadets and BTDT, I can't say that I agree with all of the bashing. I'm not ashamed to say that we did leave on Saturday night in the interests of applying CPPT after the blatant violations that occurred with one of my cadets. I will not go into specifics here.
However, while I think things were poorly executed, I am taking that poor execution and turning it into a training tool for my cadets so that they can understand how to change things.
I have asked each of my participants to write up their own AAR with constructive criticism that we will submit as a Squadron. I look forward to seeing the AAR that comes out from the C/Col and the Maj. so that there can be an open dialogue.
Feel free to flame away... Everyone learns from failures more than they do successes.