Like father, like son

[RiverAux]

Seems that the Air Force might be experiencing the same sort of lack of military discipline and customs and courtesies that some people believe make CAP look foolish.

http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2009/01/airforce_backtalk_dorr_011609/

[dwb]

Those who don’t like the [proposed heritage] coat need to suck it up. The current service dress uniform doesn’t work, and the new coat is essential.

Ha! 

[swamprat86]

During our last encampment when we were sharing a common area with RM AF people we noticed this.  We even saw a drunken fight between an AF officer and EM.  They are starting to act more like a corporation.

[Stonewall]

In some cases, I believe CAP to be more military than the Air Force.  Why?  Because we often strive to teach young people about military discipline, the military way of life and simple things that are taught only once in Basic Military Training and then forgotten; whereas we continue this for years as a cadet progresses through the cadet program.

The AF is weak in my opinion.  Perhaps "soft" is a better term.  I could write for days about my experiences in the Air Force (specifically the Air National Guard) that cover now 4 years.  Don't be fooled by me being in the ANG, I have been on active orders to schools and in support of active units for several months at a time, and the active component seems no different in its incompetence than that of the Guard.

As I stated in a post recently in another thread, "don't worry about push-ups on the AF PT test because you can do whatever form of push-up you want".  I saw an airman keep his body virtually still as his head bounced up and down and each push-up was counted (about 60 in 1 minute).  And don't think that's only in the Guard.  In 2005 at SERE school several airmen showed up without a current PT test in hand so they administered one there.  I witnessed the test and saw the same lackidazical standard there too, and that's active duty AETC (Air Edcuation Training Command) where standards should be by the book.

Last year at Combat Arms school (3 months at Lackland AFB) I was one of 4 "seminar leader"; meaning I was in charge of about 16 fellow students.  One of the things I was in charge of was PT three times a week.  Well, 2 times, since Friday was "football Friday".  An active duty staff sergeant REFUSED to run more than 1 1/2 miles because "I am only required to run 1.5 miles and I will run no more than 1.5 miles".  I chewed her a$$ one-on-one, and then again with the whole group when she failed to perform a second, third, fourth....time.  No one in the chain of command did a thing.  No one cared.  I was actually told that "we try to avoid conflict with females due to potential harassment issues".  

"Warrior Airmen"?  "Combat Airmen"?  Whatever!  The AF attempts to act like the other branches to feel a part of the "warrior machine" made up primarily of the Army and Marines.  Truth is, the AF doesn't know what being a warrior is about.  Sure, there are a few AFSCs in AFSOC and some TACPs, but 90%, if not more, airman have zero interest in shooting let alone being acting warrior like.

Here is an example by comparison:

I was in an Army Guard Infantry company
Approximately 120 men serving one weekend a month.  1 full-time E-7 and 1 full-time E-6 managed the entire company.  We trained and went to the field 9 out of 12 drill weekends a year, usually for 3-day drills.  This included logistical planning for transportation, billeting, training areas, chow, ammunition, air support and all the small things like water, pencils, and smoke grenades.

I am in an Air National Guard Security Forces Squadron
Approximately 70+ airmen serving one weekend a month.  1 full-time E-9; 1 full-time E-8; 1 full-time E-7; 2 full-time E-6s, 1 full-time E-5 and a full-time civilian GS-11.  This does not include the several full-time NCOs and contract security officers providing 24 hour security of the base.  I do not know what I'm doing from one drill to the next.  In fact, unless I call or email someone, I won't know what I'm doing the Friday night before drill on Saturday.  90% of the squadron sits around doing CBTs (computer based training), going to medical, staying out of site (out of mind), and getting yelled at to "stay busy".

I could go on and on.  I actually have pages of a "journal" written that I use to vent my frustrations.  Unfortunately I am stuck in the Air Guard or I would transfer over.  I'm sort of broken but can maintain the standards enough to do my job in the Air Guard as a combat arms instructor.  I fear that I wouldn't make it through a full-blown physical to get into the Army Guard, which I have looked into and already gotten approval for pending a physical.  With back surgery and a bad shoulder and ankle, I don't want to risk things when I can finish my 20 years in 6 years, even though I want to do 30.

Okay, that was a bit of a vent.  Thanks RiverAux for bringing that up.  I think I'll go read my Airman magazine now.  :angel:

[Stonewall]

This will just about cover the flybys the Air Force and its need to act more militarily...


Warrior!  Hooah!

[swamprat86]

Isn't that a trained K-9?

[MIKE]

No, its a FOD hazard.

[AlphaSigOU]

Well said, Kirt!  :clap:

Being a former cadink myself, I pride myself in wearing the uniform correctly, especially in situations where we interact with non-members. I pop off a crisp salute and don't forget to say 'sir' or 'ma'am' to my superiors, and expect those holding lesser grade to do the same to me. There is a time for informality, but not where you can affect an impression around you.

Take a good look at yourselves... you're everyone's first impression of Civil Air Patrol!

[NIN]

In 1986, I arrived at the last couple days of the MI Wing Encampment fresh from AIT, enroute to my first duty station in Korea.  On Saturday morning, I showed up to graduation in my Class As, darn proud of my mosquito wings and my aircrew badge. 

Our wing LO, a sawed off Lt Col named Norm Golden, spied me from the other side of the reviewing stand an he made his way over to me.

I saluted and he returned it, clearly pleased to have gotten a salute.   He shook my hand and said "Ninness, what's with the funny colored uniform? Why no Air Force blue?"  (Colonel Golden had been a Marine C-130 pilot before he moved over to the AF)

"I don't know, sir, I guess I just didn't find what I was looking for from the Air Force, so I picked the Army.  You know, duty, honor, discipline, that kind of thing?"

"Oh, I know what you mean," he said. "Over here in the Air Force, its like one big gigantic club: 'Hey, Tom! How's it going, Ted?  What's up, Bill?'  "

We shared a laugh on that one, but I took his meaning: the AF is like a bunch of dudes who happen to all wear the same clothes.   Usually.

[Strick]

In the article, I liked how they mentioned that the AF needs a more military  type uniform.  The AF needs to hire some Marines to get them squared away! 

[swamprat86]

As their auxiliary, I think we could find some members that would volunteer their time to help with this. 

[lordmonar]

In my 22 years in the USAF I have seen this same sort of article time and time again.

I don't want to sound apathetic...but there was a reason I joined the AF and not the Army, Marines or Navy.

One of those reasons is the more relaxed attitude.

If that is not your cup of tea...then follow Nin's example and join a service that is more to your liking.

I have always kept C&C and D&C as an important part of my leadership package and did my best to enforce those standards when ever I saw lapse in my subordinates, peers and superiors (a time or two).

Granted there are lots of examples of people and units that just don't get it, but I think they are the exception and not the rule.

[Stonewall]

This was written by an Active Duty SMSgt about a week ago.  I don't agree or disagree with the attitude, and I'm not "flaming" this individual as I sort of know him and like what he does...  Was that vague enough?  Either way, I think it about sums up how airmen see themselves as a whole.

This was written in response to someone who complained that AF BMT was too harsh (from about a month ago)...

My name is SMSgt [Redacted] and I am not a Warrior.

For me to be a Warrior, the AF would need to train me to be a Warrior. The AF has not done this, nor will the AF ever do this for me and about 98% of the rest of my comrades. I have not shot the M-16 since 1994 and I have not shot the M-9 since 2001. How can I be labeled a Warrior if I haven't even been allowed to keep current on the basic weapons of the Warrior. Sure, I could pick up an M-16 and sight the thing in and use it somewhat effectively, but I would not have the skill to be labeled Warrior. I have no skill or knowledge on military tactics. I would probably get a squad of people killed if I tried to lead them in a firefight. The AF solution to this problem is to send me to a 2-week course if they ever deployed me, which is not likely since I'm in a Headquarters unit.

What am I? I am an Airman, I have been for 26+ years and I will be one till the day I die. The AF has trained me to maintain radio equipment, groom young Airmen into quality radio mechanics, manage communications systems, manage programs, and staff packages through the quagmire we call the Air Staff. These are my mad skills. I do not need to be labeled as a Warrior to feel that I am important to the AF mission. I know where I fit into the mission and I know the mission would fail without the contribution of Comm.

[Redacted] is correct, our AF wants to label us as "Warriors" but then does nothing to make this anything but a Paper Lion. Soldiers and Marines are all trained in basic combat skills regardless for their respective "jobs". If need be, they can drop what they are doing grab their weapon and be out on the line. As Airmen we do not receive combat skills or any other training that really binds us as "Airmen". The Army and Marines receive combat training, we get the Airmen's Creed and our SERE training via a computer.

That being said, I don't think this is a bad thing, primarily because the vast majority of us are in the support role in the AF. We are not intended to be "Combat Ready", we need to be "Combat Support" ready. The pilots and a handful of the enlisted force are Warriors, most of us are not, nor should we be Warriors. It is not our mission.

On the BMT thing, my TI would get about 1" from your face and spout off a string of "[redacted] you and your mom" for about 5 minutes. He didn't give a [poo-poo] about your feelings or if you were having a bad day. He came to the dorm one night [drunk] in his mess dress and walked up and down the isle asking if there was anyone man enough to get up and fight him, no one did. Up until the last day of BMT he was the biggest [butt head] I had ever met in my life. To this day I have great respect for him. My TI could have probably punched me in the face and I would have too scared to report him. TIs aren't supposed to be nice, they are supposed to be an [butt head]. That is what the AF pays them to do.

[Stonewall]

In my 22 years in the USAF I have seen this same sort of article time and time again.

I don't want to sound apathetic...but there was a reason I joined the AF and not the Army, Marines or Navy.

One of those reasons is the more relaxed attitude.

You know MSgt Mr. Harris, I agree with your reasoning to join the AF for those very reasons.  When I left the active Army to pursue my education and cool jobs in the private sector, I felt a huge void in my life so I joined the Army Guard.  It worked; one weekend a month.  Even deployed.  Then when I left the Army Guard so I could do more cool things as a civilian; travelling the world and carrying a gun, I felt that void again.  I chose to join the Air Guard because they were more flexible with missing drill weekends and such (no so much anymore).  I missed 4 drills in a row because I was out of the country with my civilian job and no one much cared.

So in a way, I appreciate a part of the relaxed attitude.  The problem is, I think it is out of control.  I have heard "this is the Air Force, we don't do all that military stuff like PT, work long hours or sleep on cots" more times than I can remember.  As if being in the Air Force is an excuse not to maintain military decorum.  I am not asking, nor do I expect, for your average comms troop "warrior airman" to be able to score expert with their M-16 or know how to patrol in a wedge formation; but I do expect them to show up on time, be in shape and not complain because they didn't get off at 15:30 to go to class that the Air Force is paying for.  It's a shotty attitude at best that most airman have as far as being in the military is concerned.

I think the Coast Guard has it right.  They have some hairy jobs to do, but by and large the USCG is a very relaxed branch of the military, but they don't go around shouting "we are too warriors" and various versions of fake "hooahs".  Instead, they accept their status for what it is, which is absolutely admirable.  Not a dig on the USCG, I am sometimes jealous of your status.  It's the real deal.

[NIN]

This was written by an Active Duty SMSgt about a week ago.  I don't agree or disagree with the attitude, and I'm not "flaming" this individual as I sort of know him and like what he does...  Was that vague enough?  Either way, I think it about sums up how airmen see themselves as a whole.

This was written in response to someone who complained that AF BMT was too harsh (from about a month ago)...

<snippage>
On the BMT thing, my TI would get about 1" from your face and spout off a string of "[redacted] you and your mom" for about 5 minutes. He didn't give a [poo-poo] about your feelings or if you were having a bad day. He came to the dorm one night [drunk] in his mess dress and walked up and down the isle asking if there was anyone man enough to get up and fight him, no one did. Up until the last day of BMT he was the biggest [butt head] I had ever met in my life. To this day I have great respect for him. My TI could have probably punched me in the face and I would have too scared to report him. TIs aren't supposed to be nice, they are supposed to be an [butt head]. That is what the AF pays them to do.

Uhhhhh, thats defective leadership no matter what service you're in.  Hooah or Air'p.  Doesn't matter. You don't do that crap to your troops and expect respect.   And a BMT TI, no less.  If that's what they allow the NCO "leadership" in the Air Force to get away with in front of BMT trainees, well, no wonder the AF is full of no-load [word the filter did not catch] who forget they're a member of the armed forces of the United States. You can keep it.

[JohnKachenmeister]

You are right.  Some of these statements sound familiar.  Too bad the Air Force cannot fall back on the "We are only unpaid employees of a corporation" statement to back up the non-warrior attitude.

The fact is that the Air Force airmen, regardless of their jobs, ARE warriors.  Their heritage goes back to those officer and enlisted airmen who served as a team in two world wars, and countless other conflicts when some Communist, tinhorn dictator, or terrorist thug thought it would be a great idea to fight the United States.

I agree that air warfare is highly technical, and we have a very long tooth-to-tail ratio.  For one officer to deliver ordnance on a target, the efforts of hundreds are required.  But does that mean that if you are one of those hundreds that you are less of a warrior than the soldier who drove his truck all night just to deliver fuel to an armored unit?  Other branches might have more people involved in launching bullets, and fewer involved in support,  but everybody's efforts are needed to kill people and break things in the name of the United States.

Now, I really hate to say this next part, but it is a fact.  The skill that Airmen bring to the battle is, frankly, too important, too expensive, too difficult to replace to risk losing them in ground combat.  That's why Security Forces and sometimes an entire Army battalion are employed to protect the Airmen.  The ability of the Air Force to use these Airmen to put a plane and an officer over a target is the most important thing.  More important than shooting a few sappers outside the fence.

[Stonewall]

Uhhhhh, thats defective leadership no matter what service you're in.  Hooah or Air'p.  Doesn't matter. You don't do that crap to your troops and expect respect.   And a BMT TI, no less.  If that's what they allow the NCO "leadership" in the Air Force to get away with in front of BMT trainees, well, no wonder the AF is full of no-load [word the filter did not catch] who forget they're a member of the armed forces of the United States. You can keep it.

This is what keeps the AF from actually being on par with the Army and Marines as far as being a force of warriors.  In a way, it resembles the wanna-be hard corps cadet NCOs and Officers in CAP after movies like Full Metal Jacket.  Cadets think that's what really happens so they act that way.  Same in the Air Force.  There are grown adults in the Air Force that actually mimic Gunny Hartman; thinking that is exactly the way  the Marine Corps conducts business.

When I went to my wife's BMT graduation in 2003, I was surprised to see very young MTLs (isn't that what the AF calls Drill Sergeants?); some not even E-5s.  I watched and observed the demeanor of the MTLs and the reactions of the recruits.  Something was missing.  It was like respect hadn't been earned.  Like the MTLs were just there showing off like many senior members do around young impressionable cadets in CAP.  Hard to put my finger on it, but at least I know what I mean 

[JoeTomasone]

Related:

http://www.macdill.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123132532

[RiverAux]

They have some hairy jobs to do, but by and large the USCG is a very relaxed branch of the military, but they don't go around shouting "we are too warriors"

Didn't you get the memo?  They and the CG Aux are "GUARDIANS" now. 

I am America's Maritime Guardian.
I serve the citizens of the United States.
I will protect them.
I will defend them.
I will save them.
I am their Shield.
For them I am Semper Paratus.
I live the Coast Guard Core Values.
I am a Guardian.
We are the United States Coast Guard.

(bold added by me).

[AlphaSigOU]

The drill instructors are MTIs - Military Training Instructors - or TIs for short. They wear the blue Smokey bear or bush hat.

Tech school 'babysitters'    used to be called STAs - Student Training Advisors - and wear the infantry blue deodorant string. They're now known as MTLs - Military Training Leaders. At the Air Force Academy they are known as AMTs - Academy Mlitary Trainers.