National Commander's Suspension Coming to an end Sunday

[SAR-EMT1]

For breakfast I had a four egg omlet with bacon cheese and sausage.
A bowl of grits with maple syrup, coffee, and a quart of chocolate milk.

Lunch was two double bacon cheese burgers with everything, two orders of hashbrowns and more coffee.

Ive already had two arbys beef and cheedars as 'snacks' along with several cokes and about a gallon of water.

Dinner will be lasagna with salad, soup, and a fine wine.

[SAR-EMT1]

Back to topic,
Regardless of what happens to Pineda, will AFOSI or our own IG team release a report to us vollunteers when all is said and done?
OR, will this info be kept close within the BoG and related parties?

[Skyray]

Someone who should know just informed me back channel that the Board of Governors meeting scheduled for yesterday did not take place.

Looks like Zig Zag is right; ten minutes before the August 2008 National Board Meeting, there will be an announcement.

Meanwhile, on 8 January 2008 when the suspension runs out, the National Commander will be reinstated with full privileges and benefits and promoted to Lieutenant General.

[arajca]

They'll probably announce a decision after the Dec BoG meeting. Probably something like:

"Maj Gen Pineda, CAP, has retired from Civil Air Patrol, effective 1 Jan 2008. Brig Gen Courter will continue to serve as the Activing Commander until the National Board meeting in Aug 2008."

[Chaplaindon]

Someone who should know just informed me back channel that the Board of Governors meeting scheduled for yesterday did not take place.

Looks like Zig Zag is right; ten minutes before the August 2008 National Board Meeting, there will be an announcement.

Meanwhile, on 8 January 2008 when the suspension runs out, the National Commander will be reinstated with full privileges and benefits and promoted to Lieutenant General.

In an offhanded and perverse sort of way, I'm just thrilled that this serves to further discredit "Snooze of the Farce" and their rumor-mongering compadres at a certain Blog in FL.

Speaking personally (and as a long-time CAP member), I am willing to allow time for adequate due process in the matter. Just because we want to know NOW and/or have personal/professional issues with Pineda (and if he cheated on an examination, let alone an ACSC exam ... I will have problems with him too).

Having said that, this ostensible slowness/thoroughness of action sets a useful precedent. Now all members SHOULD expect the same rights to thorough due process in their membership actions. Such rights prevent tyranny, not unlike some alleged to have been committed by Gen. Pineda.

I will have the same problem with leaders who treat certain members different because of their wearing eagles or stars (or whatnot) on their epaulets. That, too, is a form of tyranny.

Let me be clear, if the exam-cheating allegations against MG Pineda are substantiated by evidence, he should be gone ... end of story.

Sadly, the whistle-blower in this matter is not IMHO terribly credible either (and YES, I listened ad nauseum to the "stump-the-chumps" interview with the IG using the online recordings) . If [he who shan't be named here] is the primary/only substance behind the exam-cheating charges against the general, this could be a evidentiary "house of cards." That has to be posing some problems for investigators and the BoG and demanding time.

No one (from the newest Cadet Basic to the highest general officer) deserves to be fired over a lie. Or the singular and uncorroborated allegations of someone who self-admits to acting dishonestly and then later (when it suits his personal situation) vindictively implicates another. That's tyranny too.

The preponderance of credible evidence (presuming any exists) must prevail, which ever way it leads.

CAP can ill-afford to face a civil lawsuit and waste precious dollars defending/losing it because leaders acted without discretion, patience, and justice. This could well be a matter of some real difficulty.

At the same time, allowing someone to stay because of their grade/clout/bluster etc. (in spite of substantial, objectively corroborated, and credible evidence of misconduct, especially integrity-based misconduct) would itself be a form of cheating and likewise intolerable.

Finally, if the BoG or NB/NEC, whomever allows themselves to be "pressured" into too-prompt action (insufficient due process) --in this or ANY membership action-- by the whims of the membership, or the rhetoric and/or rumors (and even invective ... you know who and where) of the CAP blogosphere ... that too would be cheating the system.

Let's slow down and let the system try to work. Perhaps the BoG had some foresight when they suspended the general for 180 days. Perhaps they suspected what a thorough investigation would require in terms of time.

Let's all relax and grant them some time. For one thing, it'll annoy the heck out of NOTF.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Well said, Chaplain Don.

[Eagle400]

Am I the only one who thinks that general Pineda's suspension happened not because of the ACSC testing scandal, but because he pushed general Bowling the wrong way?  I'm telling you, he did something to make Bowling mad and when it came time to do something about it the BOG concluded, "Let's just say it was because of the testing scandal.  Yep.  People will believe that."

[Skyray]

What you are saying, Chaplin Don, is that he should be afforded the due process that he never granted to others.  The history between he and Skip Munger is that he fired Munger as wing administrator over trumped up charges of theft of a surplus automobile that were never proved.  George Metz was terminated for bringing to the front misappropriation of property.  Metz was later vindicated and reinstated, right before he died.  The investigation that vindicated him is still classified CAP secret--to protect the wrong doing of high ranking CAP officers.  As vocal as I am, why do you suppose he has never sued me?  Because, quite simply, the next sound he would hear would be the service of my subpoena for his deposition--truth is an absolute defense to defamation.  I represented a cadet who was given a 2B for no greater sin than claiming that cadet achievement tests were being compromised.  No investigation of the compromise of the tests was ever done, and I ended up non-renewed for talking about it.  There are a lot of other sins here than cheating on one air force course, and they have been going on for years.  He has such a strangle hold on Florida Wing that everyone down here is afraid to move; afraid that he will come back and wreak vengence upon them.  There is a one hundred and fifty page outline of specifications of wrong doing that has been presented to the board of governors; believe me, cheating on the air force is among the lesser of them.

[Chaplaindon]

"What you are saying, Chaplin Don, is that he should be afforded the due process that he never granted to others."

Whether or not MG Pineda extended due process to others is functionally immaterial; justice is to be extended to ALL even when it may seem undeserved.

It often separates due process from a lynching.

Two (or more) wrongs do not make a right.

[Chaplaindon]

FYI ...

Just down the pike ...

Dear Members of the CAP National Board:

I have received many emails and calls from our Civil Air Patrol members thinking that there had been a CAP Board of Governors conference call Sunday night to discuss the suspension of Maj Gen Pineda.  As you may know from receipt of similar emails and blogs being forwarded to you, there is much speculation on what the BoG is or is not going to do.  All of this is adding to the impatience – and that is not good for our members and our missions.  Further, it concerns me that people would think that the BoG is shrinking away from the situation and has cancelled meetings.  Nothing should be read into the rescheduling of a call.

Let me set the record straight. The BoG did not conduct a conference call meeting 30 September – once this date was checked with the BoG members, it was discarded due to schedule conflicts. Instead, a conference call is scheduled for Tuesday, 2 October, on this matter.   There have not been calls cancelled – the scheduling of the call has been attempted more than once to ensure that there could be maximum participation on such important matters to the CAP.

Further, there may be additional calls necessary before a conclusion is reached. As these meetings are private, I will not speculate on their content, nor will I be in a position to give you call-by-call progress checks. What I do promise is a statement once all proceedings are completed and a decision has been rendered.

I ask for everyone's patience during this time and that board members seek accurate, up-to-the-minute information from me or Mr. Don Rowland.

I will be meeting via conference call with the members of the NEC this week, and the members of the National Board next week.  I look forward to talking with each of you then.  Thank you to each of you for your leadership of our organization.  Be safe.

Very Respectfully,

Brig. Gen. Amy S. Courter, Acting National Commander

[Skyray]

I agree with your aphorisms, Chaplin Don.  It's just that you obviously don't know what you are talking about.  The enemity between Skip Munger and Pineda came when Pineda tried to get Munger to forge documents in the Statutory Rape of [redacted] by one of the officers in her squadron, and Munger had too much integrity to do it.  How do I know this? Well, I represented [redacted] and I was pretty instrumental in keeping her from suing CAP.  I should have let her sue.

Edit: keep names involved in such issues out of the forum -TA

[alice]

I must applaud Chaplain Don for his words above about letting the full formal due process take place on *any* personnel issue.  I don't recall offhand what the standard is in CAP regs for the time to appeal a suspension and/or a duty assignment kick nor how long are the appeal procedures in the special reg for removal of a National CC or CV but I'm very glad the BoG is following the norms I've seen as a CAP legal officer for dealing with Average Joe Member under CAP's adverse personnel regs; that is the 30/60/90 days procedures.  BoG has the power to ignore totally any CAP reg, so seeing them trying to follow the regs as closely as possible is a good sign.

And, I also must applaud our Acting National CC for her very straight talk letter which was bounced to everyone in California Wing today.   Very pleased to know we will all get a timely report whatever decisions are made on this issue.  And, am equally glad the BoG deliberations will remain "private" until a decision is made.   Every CAP member facing an adverse personnel action deserves the same discretion and courtesy.

[Eagle400]

Two (or more) wrongs do not make a right.

I agree that two wrongs do not make a right.  However, if there is anyone who knows about general Pineda's lack of due process for members he 2b'd, it is Doug Johnson. 

Why don't you give him credit where it is due, Chaplaindon.  Those who know the full story behind the situation in Florida know that Doug is a credible and trustworthy person who should still be afforded the privilige of service in CAP.   

[Skyray]

Thanks for the support Ace of Spades, but Chaplain Don and Alice have convinced me that I was advocating precipitous action, and we should let the process run its course.  I place great trust in BG Courter, and she thinks the BoG is right up there.  Therefore, I think the BoG is right up there.  I think they have all the information they need, Lord knows I have submitted enough reports on it.

[Eagle400]

Thanks for the support Ace of Spades, but Chaplain Don and Alice have convinced me that I was advocating precipitous action, and we should let the process run its course.  I place great trust in BG Courter, and she thinks the BoG is right up there.  Therefore, I think the BoG is right up there.  I think they have all the information they need, Lord knows I have submitted enough reports on it.

Agreed.  I, too place great trust in Brig Gen Courter.  I won't speculate on what decision the BoG could make, but I hope it comes soon. 

[Major Carrales]

Thanks for the support Ace of Spades, but Chaplain Don and Alice have convinced me that I was advocating precipitous action, and we should let the process run its course.  I place great trust in BG Courter, and she thinks the BoG is right up there.  Therefore, I think the BoG is right up there.  I think they have all the information they need, Lord knows I have submitted enough reports on it.

Kudos Doug, I have advocated for "due process" a long time now.  We are a "Nation of LAWS," not of RULERS or PRECEIVED TRUTHS.   CAP, by extention is the same.

Once this is over, if we place our trust in due process, it will be ended and we can move on.  I too have met and am greatly impressed by the Brigadier General, I trust her judgement.  Let's let this pass into history.

[Chaplaindon]

Two (or more) wrongs do not make a right.

I agree that two wrongs do not make a right.  However, if there is anyone who knows about general Pineda's lack of due process for members he 2b'd, it is Doug Johnson. 

Why don't you give him credit where it is due, Chaplaindon.  Those who know the full story behind the situation in Florida know that Doug is a credible and trustworthy person who should still be afforded the privilege of service in CAP.   

I would never deny the credibility of Skyray nor his bona fides and value as a former (hopefully a future CAP member, again). Furthermore, it may well be that General Pineda is guilty of all the allegations I've read here (and even more that I haven't) ... that's not the point.

My point is that CAP should rise ABOVE the pettiness and misconduct we rightfully decry in others. We need to claim the "high" moral ground.

This should be a chance for us to demonstrate professionalism worthy of our uniforms.

If the evidence is there, I am confident that the BoG will act accordingly and in due time.

But I decry the actions of NOTF (regardless of its owner/editor's past history with CAP or the general) for stirring up the membership NEEDLESSLY over an ostensibly false story about a BoG meeting and pending action. The information was obviously errant. The result was unnecessary angst (pro and contra) throughout the CAP membership (or at least blogosphere).

[ZigZag911]

I did not realize that there was a 150 page document containing specifications alleged against Maj Gen Pineda.

Since that is so, it makes a bit more sense that this investigation seems to be taking a long time.

Of course, unless someone has been involved in one of these affairs (which I have as investigator, complainant, and convening commander, of course each on a different occasion) you can not begin to appreciate how complicated it can be just getting hold of the people you need to interview to get the needed information!

Brig Gen Courter has demonstrated yet again why she is a class act!

However this turns out, I hope that she is elected National CC next August.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Two (or more) wrongs do not make a right.

I agree that two wrongs do not make a right.  However, if there is anyone who knows about general Pineda's lack of due process for members he 2b'd, it is Doug Johnson. 

Why don't you give him credit where it is due, Chaplaindon.  Those who know the full story behind the situation in Florida know that Doug is a credible and trustworthy person who should still be afforded the privilege of service in CAP.   

I would never deny the credibility of Skyray nor his bona fides and value as a former (hopefully a future CAP member, again). Furthermore, it may well be that General Pineda is guilty of all the allegations I've read here (and even more that I haven't) ... that's not the point.

My point is that CAP should rise ABOVE the pettiness and misconduct we rightfully decry in others. We need to claim the "high" moral ground.

This should be a chance for us to demonstrate professionalism worthy of our uniforms.

If the evidence is there, I am confident that the BoG will act accordingly and in due time.

But I decry the actions of NOTF (regardless of its owner/editor's past history with CAP or the general) for stirring up the membership NEEDLESSLY over an ostensibly false story about a BoG meeting and pending action. The information was obviously errant. The result was unnecessary angst (pro and contra) throughout the CAP membership (or at least blogosphere).

I have a little different take, Don.

Apparently, there WAS a conference call scheduled for Sunday wherein the BoG was to discuss the General.  This information was communicated to NOTF by someone, presumably someone on the BoG.  Also, someone appartently communicated to NOTF the anticipated outcome of the conference call. 

Regardless of the reasons why the conference call was postponed, it appears that there is a big leak in the BoG's marble bag.

[Chaplaindon]

"Regardless of the reasons why the conference call was postponed, it appears that there is a big leak in the BoG's marble bag."

Kach,

You could be right and I wouldn't be surprised in the least. There have been other noteworthy leaks as well (e.g. the 3-hour-long IG interview with you-know-who recently posted online). That shouldn't have happened.

It may well be that there is a prospective effort to discredit the "verdict" of the BoG.

That's, thankfully, quixotic (IMHO).

Looking at whose on the BoG (CAP and non), I remain confident of a credible and just outcome, one way or another.