Could somone explain to me "Up or Out"?

[Nomex Maximus]

So how is this termination handled? A happy occasion or is it like getting fired? And the idea of an enlisted soldier being told to go seems odd at best - you have a guy that has been in since he was 18 and he is now 30. He didn't get past E-6 so they tell him to go get lost? And at the same time they will happily recruit a 36 year old with no experience as a private? Wouldn't it make more sense to just keep the experienced younger guy in a lesser slot?

Seems like a very strange practice for my civilian mind to grasp...

[Skyray]

Enlisted guys and Reserve Officers sign contracts, usually four to six years.  If they don't promote according to schedule, the service simply doesn't renew their contract.

[SarDragon]

[backquotes redacted] I believe this policy was developed during the downsizing period of the military.  It was one more way to get people out of the service.  Basically, if the person didn't want to advance, the military said it didn't need them.  The enlisted side has similar policies. [further redacted]

IIRC, some sort of "up or out" policy was in place as far back as the '60s, particularly for officers. Getting passed over was a huge deal. The enlisted folks didn't get the major effect of it until in the '70s, after Viet Nam ended.

[JohnKachenmeister]

So how is this termination handled? A happy occasion or is it like getting fired? And the idea of an enlisted soldier being told to go seems odd at best - you have a guy that has been in since he was 18 and he is now 30. He didn't get past E-6 so they tell him to go get lost? And at the same time they will happily recruit a 36 year old with no experience as a private? Wouldn't it make more sense to just keep the experienced younger guy in a lesser slot?

Seems like a very strange practice for my civilian mind to grasp...

How it is handled for officers:

IF you are passed over for promotion a second time, you get a letter detailing your options.  Usually you have three.

1.  If you have 20 or more years of active duty, you can retire.

2.  If you have less than 20 years active duty, you can request discharge.

3.  If you have less than 20 years active duty, but 20 or more years qualifying reserve service, you can transfer to the retired reserve until age 60.

Not a happy occasion, but more like getting laid off than fired.

Fired is when they send you a CERTIFIED letter informing you of their intent to separate you from your commission, and detailing some misconduct or shortcoming.  You have the right to challenge that at a hearing.

[Nomex Maximus]

...but if you have less than 20 years are you pretty much out of any retirement benefits?

[O-Rex]

...but if you have less than 20 years are you pretty much out of any retirement benefits?

Not necessarily: years on active duty can be combined with reserve drill/perticiaption points towards retirement from the reserves at age 60, per Kach's post.

[flyguy06]

Dont you also have an education requirement?

To make 2d LT, you obviously need the Bachelors degree, but to make beyond Major, you need a graduate degree?

You have to be a graudate of Command and General staff Colleg eand if you graduate from that you automatically get a Masters degree in military science. So it is not a written rule that yo uHAVE to have a Masters degree to be a Major but you must graduate from CGSC which gives you a masters degree

[Cecil DP]

...but if you have less than 20 years are you pretty much out of any retirement benefits?

Not necessarily: years on active duty can be combined with reserve drill/participation points toward retirement from the reserves at age 60, per Kach's post.

If you have some enlisted time you may be allowed to enlist as a Sergeant or Staff
sergeant depending on your officer grade. I have known Majors to go out as E-7's and at least two Colonels to stay on as W-2s. There was even a Major General, Might have been a 3* who got out of the Army under a political cloud, He refused to retire and was instead discharged. 20 years later he asked for his retirement and they brought him back as a W-2 for a day and retired him as a Major General.

[JohnKachenmeister]

...but if you have less than 20 years are you pretty much out of any retirement benefits?

Yes.

20 years active= immediate retirement benefits

Less than 20 years active, but total of 20 years reserve and active= retirement benefits at age 60.

Less than 20 years total= Civilian.

If you are forced out with more than 20 years reserve time, and you are less than 60 years old, you have the option on staying in the Retired Reserve until age 60, or take a discharge and get out until age 60.  As a retired reservist you retain PX, commissary, MWR benefits, and you hold your rank for protocol purposes.  You retain the right to wear the uniform, and you MAY be recalled to active duty, but you cannot be sent out of the US unless you agree to a waiver of assignment.

If you opt for discharge, you have no military connection until age 60 when your retirement benefits start.

[Cecil DP]

The background on the "Up or out" policy is that until about 1940 an officer could serve until retirement age no matter how good or bad he was. Advancement was by seniority so that unless someone resigned, retired , or died you did not move up. This resulted in many officers being 40 year old lieutenants or Captains. Unless there was a war in which case they were given temporary appointments to a higher grade (For example General Eisenhowers permenant grade before his appointment to GA was Colonel even though he wore 4 stars). The up and out is a weeding process, so that the best qualified moves up and the also rans leave.

[ZigZag911]

For example General Eisenhowers permenant grade before his appointment to GA was Colonel even though he wore 4 stars. 

That is a very interesting fact, especially since in terms of 'temporary' ranks, I think Ike jumped from lt col to brig gen without ever 'pinning on' a set of eagles!

[Cecil DP]

For example General Eisenhowers permenant grade before his appointment to GA was Colonel even though he wore 4 stars. 

That is a very interesting fact, especially since in terms of 'temporary' ranks, I think Ike jumped from lt col to brig gen without ever 'pinning on' a set of eagles!

No, Ike was a Col, Bradley jumped from LTC to BG, as did Doolittle and a few others. (Pershing was actually jumped from CPT to BG in 1908, when Ted Roosevelt decided that there were too many Generals who had served in the Civil War).   

[Cecil DP]

Enlisted guys and Reserve Officers sign contracts, usually four to six years.  If they don't promote according to schedule, the service simply doesn't renew their contract.

Actually NCO's with more than 10 years of service can now  reenlist for an indefinite period

[SarDragon]

Enlisted guys and Reserve Officers sign contracts, usually four to six years.  If they don't promote according to schedule, the service simply doesn't renew their contract.

Actually NCO's with more than 10 years of service can now  reenlist for an indefinite period

When did that start? The last intel I saw was a maximum enlistment of 6 years, with a maximum of 4 years extension, giving a 10 year enlistment. I served an 8 year, 8 month enlistment WIWOAD on that basis.

[davedove]

So how is this termination handled? A happy occasion or is it like getting fired? And the idea of an enlisted soldier being told to go seems odd at best - you have a guy that has been in since he was 18 and he is now 30. He didn't get past E-6 so they tell him to go get lost? And at the same time they will happily recruit a 36 year old with no experience as a private? Wouldn't it make more sense to just keep the experienced younger guy in a lesser slot?

Seems like a very strange practice for my civilian mind to grasp...

How it is handled for officers:

IF you are passed over for promotion a second time, you get a letter detailing your options.  Usually you have three.

1.  If you have 20 or more years of active duty, you can retire.

2.  If you have less than 20 years active duty, you can request discharge.

3.  If you have less than 20 years active duty, but 20 or more years qualifying reserve service, you can transfer to the retired reserve until age 60.

Not a happy occasion, but more like getting laid off than fired.

Fired is when they send you a CERTIFIED letter informing you of their intent to separate you from your commission, and detailing some misconduct or shortcoming.  You have the right to challenge that at a hearing.

Also, unless it has changed recently, in the Army once you make E-6 you're guaranteed your 20 years.

And I believe for all of the services, once you hit 18 years you're good for 20.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Don't know about the E-6 rule.  It is true that you get an 18-year "Lock-in" even if your second passover takes place between 18-20 years.

[Cecil DP]

...but if you have less than 20 years are you pretty much out of any retirement benefits?

Yes, only exception is if you have medical problems directly caused by your service.

[JohnKachenmeister]

A friend of mine was a major passed over for Lt. Col. twice when he had more than 17 years in.  Good bye.  No pension.

[Skyray]

A friend of mine was a major passed over for Lt. Col. twice when he had more than 17 years in.  Good bye.  No pension.

RA or Reserve?  When I was in the Marines, that could happen to a reserve, but if you were regular you were guaranteed twenty when you made Major.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Reserve, but I never heard of a 20-year guarantee for majors in the Army.