Changing Civil Air Patrol to U.S. Civil Air Patrol

[DNall]

You assume that anyone on the NB really cares. 

Well I know for a fact they are listening. Cares or not I couldn't answer. I think they have been fairly responsible though, so far as it either played into or didn't interfere with their own plans or desires.

Let's face it.....there is NO real reason for anyone in the feild to object to this change....maybe a legal one, maybe the USAF may object....but rank and file?

Principle & frustration with both the process & the actual change.

If anyone tries to do some sort of passive resisitance they all need to be 2b'ed.  Support down, challeng up.

Absolutely you follow orders or get the hell out. This conversation is challenging up the chain, & the complaint is they are not supporting back down in.

[RiverAux]

I didn't say I'd quit the organization, just quit wearing a uniform that doesn't accurately represent the organization I'm in. 

River....if you follow through on this threat...then about 90% of all the stuff you have ever said about CAP officers needing to be more professional is just a load of bull hockey!

Lesson one of any leader.....support down, challenge up!

By the way, I haven't been one of the "professionalize or else" crowd.  I don't think our professionalism (or lack thereof) has very much at all to do with what missions we are and are not tasked with by the Air Force or by state agencies. 

[lordmonar]

I didn't say I'd quit the organization, just quit wearing a uniform that doesn't accurately represent the organization I'm in. 

River....if you follow through on this threat...then about 90% of all the stuff you have ever said about CAP officers needing to be more professional is just a load of bull hockey!

Lesson one of any leader.....support down, challenge up!

By the way, I haven't been one of the "professionalize or else" crowd.  I don't think our professionalism (or lack thereof) has very much at all to do with what missions we are and are not tasked with by the Air Force or by state agencies. 

Oops...sorry did it again.  I sometimes get tunnel vision on this forum.  

However...on the principles of leadership....it is very dangerous to say statements like you said.  A lot of our leadership authority is built on a fiction.  We pretend that we have faith in our leaders to help shore up our own authority.  If Cadets X,Y,Z see that SM RiverAux may disobey an order because he disagrees with it on principle (not legal) grounds they may decide to stop listen to their leadership because he has not "earned their respect".

We have show loyalty to our leaders and decisions especially when we disagree with them.  Or else we run the risk of loosing control of the whole train.

[DNall]

However...on the principles of leadership....it is very dangerous to say statements like you said.  A lot of our leadership authority is built on a fiction.  We pretend that we have faith in our leaders to help shore up our own authority.  If Cadets X,Y,Z see that SM RiverAux may disobey an order because he disagrees with it on principle (not legal) grounds they may decide to stop listen to their leadership because he has not "earned their respect".

We have show loyalty to our leaders and decisions especially when we disagree with them.  Or else we run the risk of loosing control of the whole train.

Just to echo (isn't it nice to see us two agreeing on things every now & then)...

That's absolutely right, and to a great extent is true in the real world and the military too. Even with the UCMJ, people really don't follow orders cause they might get tossed in jail. I mean they'll do what they absolutely have to because of that, just like in business people will do what they must to keep from getting fired, but you can't operate a unit full of people like that, you'd never get anything done. People have to be inspired & actually led, not forced. And part of that is them buying into the system that grants you authority over them, and that means you have to show the same fealty in example or you're out of business.

So many things like that which are qualities & principles of good leadership are even more necessary in a volunteer based organization than they are in the military or business expressly because anyone can give you the finger & walk out the door anytime the feel like it.

[LtCol White]

As I said previously, it is what it is.  You are free to disagree with the change but you are required to comply with it. MANY military personnel disagree with certain orders and requirements but the STILL follow them.

In the grand scheme, this is a very minor issue. If you feel that strongly, you're free to not wear BDU's. Its that simple. If USAF doesn't say NO, then let it be, because it means its not a big deal to them and shouldn't be to us.

Like it or not, we have to have some faith in the NB and leadership that they do have the best interest of the organization at heart. It may not always seem this way and we may not understand the logic, but then again, since we weren't involved in the process we don't know what efforts and reasoning went into the decisions. Given this, it is irresponsible and poor leadership to make assumptions about what they did or didn't consider when making this or any other changes. For us, its PURE specualtion.

Aren't there more important topics we can write 17 pages on???

[arajca]

Aren't there more important topics we can write 17 pages on???

Probably, but would we really write 17 pages on them?

[RogueLeader]

I won't wear US Civil Air patrol Tapes until there is no other option to, maybe not even then.

It is this attitude that I just don't understand.  I can understand the "not another change" attitude, the "I just got new BDUs" attitude.  But this?  Are you really saying that you will quit CAP over the branch tape of a uniform you don't even have to wear?

Who said I was going to quit?

[lordmonar]

I won't wear US Civil Air patrol Tapes until there is no other option to, maybe not even then.

It is this attitude that I just don't understand.  I can understand the "not another change" attitude, the "I just got new BDUs" attitude.  But this?  Are you really saying that you will quit CAP over the branch tape of a uniform you don't even have to wear?

Who said I was going to quit?

"Maybe not even then" means either you are going to quit...or you are going to get a 2b (if I were your squadron commander).  You may not like the uniform....but you got to wear it (or one of the other uniforms).  So if you don't want to wear "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" then that means no BBDUs or BDUs for you.  So you will be a flight suit, service dress or polo shirt guy at the mission base.

[RogueLeader]

2B over a branch Tape that only adds US over a loyal and dedicated member who got tired of having too many changes come from HQ. . . . hhmmmmmm. . . . . I'd say that that smacks of what NHQ is doing.

[ColonelJack]

Probably, but would we really write 17 pages on them?

No ... we're going to write 17 pages on being Admirals in the Nebraska Navy!   

Jack

[LtCol White]

Probably, but would we really write 17 pages on them?

No ... we're going to write 17 pages on being Admirals in the Nebraska Navy!   

Jack

"[darn] the torpedoes...full speed ahead!!"

[RogueLeader]

Probably, but would we really write 17 pages on them?

No ... we're going to write 17 pages on being Admirals in the Nebraska Navy!   

Jack

"[darn] the torpedoes...full speed ahead!!"

uh-rah, Semeper FI.

[ColonelJack]

uh-rah, Semeper FI.

Well, it fits that the Nebraska Navy should have a Marine Corps.

Jack

[RogueLeader]

uh-rah, Semeper FI.

Well, it fits that the Nebraska Navy should have a Marine Corps.

Jack

Under the Nebraskan Department of Defense*

[RiverAux]

I don't see why I should support a decision that violates CAP's constitution by wearing a uniform that exhibits the organization's lack of adherence to its founding document.  Change the Constitution to allow U.S. Civil Air Patrol and I will wear the BDUs. 

After the US Civil Air Patrol becomes mandatory I just won't wear the BDUs anymore.  That isn't any sort of revolutionary statement.  I've got other uniforms I can wear.  I just won't participate in activities where the BDUs are required. 

[LtCol White]

I don't see why I should support a decision that violates CAP's constitution by wearing a uniform that exhibits the organization's lack of adherence to its founding document.  Change the Constitution to allow U.S. Civil Air Patrol and I will wear the BDUs. 

After the US Civil Air Patrol becomes mandatory I just won't wear the BDUs anymore.  That isn't any sort of revolutionary statement.  I've got other uniforms I can wear.  I just won't participate in activities where the BDUs are required. 

Exactly the point here. If you don't like the US CAP strips, just don't wear the BDU's.

[JC004]

::sings:: this is the thread that never ends...

[DNall]

Exactly the point here. If you don't like the US CAP strips, just don't wear the BDU's.

Or grow up & get over it. Grumbling is fine, they brought that on themselves with bad mgmt practices, but in the end you should salute & exectute. In the meantime I'd say two simple things:

1) It still looks like the AF has to approve this for BDUs if they refuse then it'll be a slap back at CAP for being so silly w/ meaningless uniform moves; if they okay it then that's them giving us permission s to do business as US CAP (just like they gave permission to dba AFAux). So relax a little an see how that goes. And,

2) Grumbing now is one thing, and I think there's an abstract conversation to be had down the path of telling leadership they need to do things right (see also the wear-test thread), but don't wrap yourself up in false principle & take it too far.

[RiverAux]

1) if they okay it then that's them giving us permission s to do business as US CAP (just like they gave permission to dba AFAux). So relax a little an see how that goes.

This has absolutely nothing at all to do with the AF.  If the AF said tomorrow that its ok with them if we were the Star Spangled Banner Civil Air Patrol that wouldn't change the fact that the CAP Constitution prohibits us from using that name.

All I'm saying is that if the leadership wants to ignore the CAP Constitution I can't do anything about it.  But, that doesn't mean I have to validate their bad decisions by tacitly agreeing to them.

     

[DNall]

...that wouldn't change the fact that the CAP Constitution prohibits us from using that name.

No it most certainly does not!!! It says the name of the org is "civil air patrol" & we own copyright to that & appropriate abbreviations thereof. It in no way restricts us from dba any other name we should choose to use provided the correct legal proceedure is followed. I didn't see you arguing when they put USAF Aux on the planes. That was the same case of dba'ing with consent of the rights holder (AF in that case).

All I'm saying is that if the leadership wants to ignore the CAP Constitution I can't do anything about it.  But, that doesn't mean I have to validate their bad decisions by tacitly agreeing to them.

They follow or ignore rules as it suits them, and that pisses all of us off as much as it does the AF, but as you say there is nothing to be done about it from our paygrade. However, this just isn't one of those cases. You need to relax a bit on the strict interpretation of everything you see. That's just not how reality works.