New CAP Governance Structure

[Garibaldi]

The USAF (I would assume) would love for us to REQUIRE a BS/BA for senior members......and that we make it harder for our members to make rank....i.e. no more 22 year old Capts.  Et Al.

Then we'd need some other grade structure for those w/o a degree.

As to 22 Year old Captains...

At 21 someone finishes college, by 22 they are a 1st Lt, and by 23 1/2 they are a Captain. Doesn't shift it much in terms of CAP.

Maybe bring back CAP NCOs? With the option to field promote contingent upon completion of a baccalaureate degree?

[Eclipse]

Another thing I've been advocating for a long time is billet-based promotions.  We have 22 - year old Captains because we promote based on PD, not need.

[flyguy06]

My question is why even bother making a BA/BS a REQUIREMENT for SOS or promotion, if one doesn't need it to be a Wing King? Why put that sort of requirement on volunteers who may not want to further their edumication? As I stated a few posts back, I have 99% of a BA and have no interest in completing it, not for CAP or anyone.

Having an educational requirement beyond a HS diploma or GED seems really out of place in a volunteer organization. It just really makes no sense to me, and you will cut out a large portion of potential LTCs and COLs with that kind of requirement. Were I not so close to LTC I might make more of a stink about it, but this just seems so silly. There's no practical reason for anyone to HAVE a BS/BA in order to be a CAP officer. If you have one already, congratulations. But for those of us who lack a baccalaureate or post-graduate degree, I doubt that we will rush out to get one just for the sake of a promotion. Math says $50,000 in student or private loans plus a non-tangible return on that investment equals a waste of time if you get turned down for wing king or region command. Many of us do not plan to serve on wing staff, much less run for wing king. Having this requirement filtered down to the local squadron level is asinine.

So, you want someone with a High School diploma running a major organization. Wheather it be CAP, BSA, the YMCA or any other 501(c)3? I dont know about that.

[Eclipse]

So, you want someone with a High School diploma running a major organization. Wheather it be CAP, BSA, the YMCA or any other 501(c)3? I dont know about that.

Experience and knowledge of CAP is what should be important.

Formal education should be a distant second to the above.

[RiverAux]

I"m confused Eclipse.  You agreed with my statement that we shouldn't regulate for the exceptions and that a bachelors requirement made sense, but now you're arguing against it.  Did you misunderstand my point?

[Eclipse]

I"m confused Eclipse.  You agreed with my statement that we shouldn't regulate for the exceptions and that a bachelors requirement made sense, but now you're arguing against it.  Did you misunderstand my point?

No - I'm making the point from a general perspective.

I agree fully that we need a bright line, and have no issue with where it's been set.

[Garibaldi]

So, you want someone with a High School diploma running a major organization. Wheather it be CAP, BSA, the YMCA or any other 501(c)3? I dont know about that.

Define what part of the major organization. Squadron level? Region? National? Perhaps. Minions within the unit or wing who have no aspirations beyond doing their job? No, unless their particular job requires it (legal, medical, etc.).

I don't believe that this requirement would be good for CAP as a whole. Granted, having someone in charge of a wing who never went to college and barely graduated high school...questionable for several reasons, no matter the level of CAP experience. So let's break this down a bit. Officers in charge of units, groups, wings and regions should have a BA/BS or post grad degree. Officers on the staff of a unit, group, or wing, unless their CAP job requires an advanced degree, no. I am perfectly happy to be a career major even if it means I can't ever promote or be a unit commander. Ain't gonna affect my retirement package one little bit. No up or out in CAP, right?

I guess I should have argued that for KEY POSITIONS like wing/region CC, even a unit CC, a baccalaureate degree should be desired. You can't force someone who doesn't have a degree but who wants to promote up and be in charge to get one, nor is it fair to say that a person has to have a degree even if they don't want to run a unit or a wing or a region, or even the whole organization. That's a whole lot of crap in a two pound bag.

To answer your question: No. I don't want CAP's commanding general to be a graduate of Podunk High School with a GPA and IQ that can't be measured.

[JeffDG]

So, you want someone with a High School diploma running a major organization. Wheather it be CAP, BSA, the YMCA or any other 501(c)3? I dont know about that.

How about Microsoft of Virgin?  Both Bill Gates and Richard Branson are college dropouts.

[AngelWings]

So, you want someone with a High School diploma running a major organization. Wheather it be CAP, BSA, the YMCA or any other 501(c)3? I dont know about that.

What if I got a degree in Arts or Music? Does that make me a competent CAP leader? You can get many degrees.

[NCRblues]

Folks, this is absolutely insane! How many times have we all complained that we cant get anyone to command squadrons/groups (sometimes even wings) now? Let alone start requiring SQUADRON commanders to have a BA/BS? This is crazy talk!! A BA/BS requirement for anything less than Nat/CC or Nat/VC is crazy and is never going to happen. I mean come on, does Capt. BagOnuts who was also E-7 AD BogOnuts really need a BA/BS to command a 20 person squadron with one radio and one van??? Crazy foolishness!! This is a volunteer organization, we depend on the good natured and those with abundant time to handle the day to day.

[SarDragon]

So, you want someone with a High School diploma running a major organization. Wheather it be CAP, BSA, the YMCA or any other 501(c)3? I dont know about that.

What if I got a degree in Arts or Music? Does that make me a competent CAP leader? You can get many degrees.

Any accredited degree implies a level of commitment. That is its value to our (and any) organization. On top of that, sometimes the coursework will even have relevance to CAP, often not.

[JeffDG]

So, you want someone with a High School diploma running a major organization. Wheather it be CAP, BSA, the YMCA or any other 501(c)3? I dont know about that.

What if I got a degree in Arts or Music? Does that make me a competent CAP leader? You can get many degrees.

Any accredited degree implies a level of commitment. That is its value to our (and any) organization. On top of that, sometimes the coursework will even have relevance to CAP, often not.

You know, there are forms of commitment beyond school work...

What about people who commit themselves to building a business instead of school?  Does that not show a level of commitment?

Basically, a degree shows that you could put up with a bunch of bullcrap for 4 years.  Not a skill that particularly defines leadership to me.

[Nathan]

So, you want someone with a High School diploma running a major organization. Wheather it be CAP, BSA, the YMCA or any other 501(c)3? I dont know about that.

How about Microsoft of Virgin?  Both Bill Gates and Richard Branson are college dropouts.

That's kind of a false correlation. Geniuses don't need college to gain the same level of knowledge that most people gain in college to succeed. I'm sure there are some people out there who are innately good at math as well, but that certainly doesn't support the argument that we should remove math as a school requirement just because of the rare exceptional individual who succeeds mathematically without any formal schooling.

[JeffDG]

So, you want someone with a High School diploma running a major organization. Wheather it be CAP, BSA, the YMCA or any other 501(c)3? I dont know about that.

How about Microsoft of Virgin?  Both Bill Gates and Richard Branson are college dropouts.

That's kind of a false correlation. Geniuses don't need college to gain the same level of knowledge that most people gain in college to succeed. I'm sure there are some people out there who are innately good at math as well, but that certainly doesn't support the argument that we should remove math as a school requirement just because of the rare exceptional individual who succeeds mathematically without any formal schooling.

But the statement I was referring to was the fact that you don't want someone with just HS running a major organization.  That assertion is demonstrably false, as evidenced by the examples given.

People are leaders, experts, or whatever not because they managed to drink with the right crowd for 4 years, but because of their innate skills, and drive.

[LGM30GMCC]

Another thing I've been advocating for a long time is billet-based promotions.  We have 22 - year old Captains because we promote based on PD, not need.

Alrighty...I am starting to get a bit irked about this 'ZOMG 22 YEAR OLD CAPTAINS!!!' thing you've got going.

There are only a few ways to become a 22 year old Captain in CAP:
One is to be a former cadet, yeah you could theoretically have gotten the Spaatz in 2.5 years. Or gotten to Eaker and then spent 18 months as a TFO and completed all the other requirements for Level II.

Or you could join as a brand new SM at 18, complete slick sleeve, and complete all requirements for Level II in the minimum time, getting promoted at the fast rate possible and make captain in 36 months. (6 to FO, 18 total to TFO, 36 Total to SFO)

You could go the Army Warrant Officer route and make CWO 1 after 21 weeks at 18, and then do everything else for captain quickly

Finance officers you could get your Master's after your bachelor's in a total of 4 years of school, then you could be a 22 yr old captain if you joined CAP

Now for the 'Real Military':

Guess what, the Army you can make O-3 in 3 years, and if you went to OTS you would have had X weeks of training prior to that. Granted, (unless I'm mistaken about the Army) you will have had a 4 year degree prior to that. So really, that isn't too bad.

Air Force you make captain in 4 years, after a bachelor's degree so you are generally about 26ish, though some are a couple years younger, though it is uncommon. Heck, if you really could push it, if you were one of those crazy kids that has a bachelor's degree when you're 16 or whatever, do OTS at 18, comission, and Poof! 22 year old AF Captain. (Doubt this would happen, but it is possible)

The point though is active duty you may have 3-4 years job experience in the military and as little as 13 weeks of military training prior to that. CAP you are looking at around 3-4 years of CAP experience minimum.

And if you're concerned about it looking like we have inexperienced kids wearing captain's bars...I'm an active duty USAF Captain...and I could easily pass for a young college student, if I kept my mouth shut, I could probably pass for an older high school student still. And I'm 27.

[JeffDG]

Ya missed the CFI route to 21 yo Captain.

[SarDragon]

So, you want someone with a High School diploma running a major organization. Wheather it be CAP, BSA, the YMCA or any other 501(c)3? I dont know about that.

What if I got a degree in Arts or Music? Does that make me a competent CAP leader? You can get many degrees.

Any accredited degree implies a level of commitment. That is its value to our (and any) organization. On top of that, sometimes the coursework will even have relevance to CAP, often not.

You know, there are forms of commitment beyond school work...

What about people who commit themselves to building a business instead of school?  Does that not show a level of commitment?

Sure it does, but a degree is an easy common denominator.

Basically, a degree shows that you could put up with a bunch of bullcrap for 4 years.  Not a skill that particularly defines leadership to me.


Yup, 4 years of bullcrap, along with a lot of money, and a lot of work. I have 2 BS degrees, which took 31 years, start to finish, and which turned out to be mostly useless based on the subject matter. I did get some of the other benefits, though, so I don't consider them a wasted effort.

[lordmonar]

So, you want someone with a High School diploma running a major organization. Wheather it be CAP, BSA, the YMCA or any other 501(c)3? I dont know about that.

How about Microsoft of Virgin?  Both Bill Gates and Richard Branson are college dropouts.

And if you want a job at either one of them....you better have a degree.

[lordmonar]

Folks, this is absolutely insane! How many times have we all complained that we cant get anyone to command squadrons/groups (sometimes even wings) now? Let alone start requiring SQUADRON commanders to have a BA/BS? This is crazy talk!! A BA/BS requirement for anything less than Nat/CC or Nat/VC is crazy and is never going to happen. I mean come on, does Capt. BagOnuts who was also E-7 AD BogOnuts really need a BA/BS to command a 20 person squadron with one radio and one van??? Crazy foolishness!! This is a volunteer organization, we depend on the good natured and those with abundant time to handle the day to day.

Now we are gettins somewhere.......I agree 100%  We don't need a BA/BS at the squadron level......but I do think we need on at the National CC level.

[denverpilot]

Bah. I should have looked for a separate thread. My comments, here...

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=15985.msg288961#msg288961