Force protection and armed CAP members

[spacecommand]

Regular firefighters, volunteer firefighters, paramedics, red cross volunteers, the salvation army, the boy scouts aren't armed either.
Many communities and agencies depend on those organizations as well.

We already pick missions based on ORM.  Again, I don't know what needs to be repeated, if we have CAP members going into situations where a gun would be needed (running into gangbangers, backwoods moonshiners, or running into the Jersey Devil), ORM is off the charts and post investigations up the ying yang. 

[O-Rex]

I think some folks have posted it here, but let me put it more succinctly: If you think you need a gun to do a CAP activity, either you are contemplating the wrong activity, our have the wrong frame of mind.

Flame away..........

[HGjunkie]

Regular firefighters, volunteer firefighters, paramedics, red cross volunteers, the salvation army, the boy scouts aren't armed either.

But the boy scouts don't do SAR (at least i've never done it). We do community work. Now, I have done disaster relief with the scouts after a tornado hit a high school when I lived in Alabama, but that's a whole different can of beans.

[DakRadz]

Now, I have done disaster relief with the scouts after a tornado hit a high school when I lived in Alabama, but that's a whole different can of beans.

Enterprise? That's the only major incident I can think of in recent years...

[HGjunkie]

Enterprise? That's the only major incident I can think of in recent years...

Nailed it. The tornado killed 8 high school students. I went to a few of the memorial services, it was pretty hard on everyone.

[DakRadz]

I remember that.. It was scary even though we didn't get that much of the storm (comparitively)- my town was smack between Dothan and Columbus, GA.

Everyone was upset about the students- that really hit home; shows that small towns make up a small state...

[zonaman]

As far as guns . . .  CAP members have talked about carring a side arm or concealed (Senior members only and with strict guide lines) in my area. We have come across dozens of Illegal Ailens while in the feild. The last thing we need is a "Coyote" or a drug runner to open fire on us (there is a fire fight with these people and Border Patrol Agents weekly- throughout the state-). The area we have been in is relatively safe and the Border Patrol (most of them) know who we are and what we are doing. We haven't had any problems yet, but that day could come. And when it does that side arm will be nice to have, not so we can pretend to be border agents, but to protect ourselves.

[spacecommand]

Follow ORM, ask for law enforcement assistance.

[zonaman]

The Border Patrol is usually a good 10 -15 minuets away. The Border Patrol is the closest LE in the area. Even if we called the sheriff, he would just call the Border Patrol because he can't do any thing with Illegal Ailens. In a stand off, 10 - 15 minuets is a longtime to wait for help. 

[DakRadz]

Ask at least one of them to actually go on the search with you. At worst, they get to exercise their authority and protect volunteers.

[JohnKachenmeister]

"When seconds count, the police are just minutes away."

[wuzafuzz]

ORM is fine and should be applied to every mission.  That's a no-brainer.  It's obvious CAP shouldn't go places where you reasonably expect potential for dangerous folks to do you harm.  However, believing ORM will always insulate you from rude surprises is fantasy. 

Until the day the police can arrive faster than I can help myself, the arguments about calling the police for help in every situation fall flat on their face.  I've stood over the bodies of many homicide victims for whom a 2 minute police response time did NOTHING.  You are on your own for a lot longer if you aren't in the middle of a good sized town.

Having said all that, I agreed to follow CAP's rules when I joined and every time I renewed.  Until our rules change (if ever), I keep my promise to follow the rules.

[N Harmon]

Again, I don't know what needs to be repeated, if we have CAP members going into situations where a gun would be needed (running into gangbangers, backwoods moonshiners, or running into the Jersey Devil), ORM is off the charts and post investigations up the ying yang.

I don't think anybody is advocating arming CAP so that we can enter known dangerous situations. I'm certainly not. But let me ask everyone a question: How many of you carry a firearm when simply hiking through the woods? Because I usually do. And not because I'm planning to go into "situations where a gun would be needed". If I were doing that, I would bring a long gun, or more likely just not go at all. The reason I carry is because of the unknown. The potential for a dangerous situation to occur exists everywhere, and you simply do not know what you will come across out there. And it costs so little in terms of extra weight to have it and not need it, that the cost of not having it and needing it (however low the probability of that is) outweighs it.

That said, CAP's situation is different. We don't just represent ourselves when we're on CAP business. And because of that, CAP has restricted us from certain (what I will call) safety measures that we might take on our own. It's not an enormous imposition, although I can see how some take offense to it (I do not). I would like to see the rules loosened somewhat, but that is just me. Until it is, there will be areas of the United States I refuse to hike through without a someone in the group carrying a firearm. Lucky for me all are well outside my wing.

[Flying Pig]

Near Ambush Right, Assault Through....

[Eclipse]

How many of you carry a firearm when simply hiking through the woods? Because I usually do. And not because I'm planning to go into "situations where a gun would be needed". If I were doing that, I would bring a long gun, or more likely just not go at all. The reason I carry is because of the unknown. The potential for a dangerous situation to occur exists everywhere, and you simply do not know what you will come across out there. And it costs so little in terms of extra weight to have it and not need it, that the cost of not having it and needing it (however low the probability of that is) outweighs it.

Not me.

Makes it kind of hard to get out of bed if you are worried about danger lurking around every corner.

[HGjunkie]

Makes it kind of hard to get out of bed if you are worried about danger lurking around every corner.

Those are the facts of life. There's danger everywhere you turn. For example, on the roads here, my mom has had a lot of close (very close) calls with people who can't drive. An then there are the people who get agitated and will try to harm you for say, taking a parking space before they got to it. My mom actually did a so called "show of force"; I.E she showed the guy she had a gun when he got peeved that she got to the parking space before he did. There are crazy people everywhere, whether at then local mall or out in the woods. I personally live with what I call "protective paranoia", meaning that I am always on the watch for someone who is trying to hurt, maim, or kill me. Ever read Catch-22? I'm a watered down version of Yossarian.

[RRLE]

she showed the guy she had a gun when he got peeved that she got to the parking space before he did.

Under Florida law, that would have gotten her arrested for brandishing and the probable loss of her carry permit if she had one. In most states you cannot display a firearm as a threat. In most states, you had better be under physcal assault or a real threat of assault before you even think of displaying a firearm.

[HGjunkie]

she showed the guy she had a gun when he got peeved that she got to the parking space before he did.

Under Florida law, that would have gotten her arrested for brandishing and the probable loss of her carry permit if she had one. In most states you cannot display a firearm as a threat. In most states, you had better be under physcal assault or a real threat of assault before you even think of displaying a firearm.

I think probable physical harm to a disabled woman would constitute that.

[JohnKachenmeister]

OK, Time to visit Plan B:

CAP could create a specialty track in "Security and Force Protection," with qualifications of:

1.  Active or retired Law Enforcement Officer, who is qualified to carry a weapon nationwide under HB-218.

2.  Otherwise qualified to participate in GT operations.

3.  Completes any CAP-unique training imposed on the skill track.

These officers would be assigned to protect CAP members at the direction of the IC, and could also develop security plans for CAP facilities, coordinate with local police agencies, and assist local agencies in non-sworn duties in disasters (traffic direction, assistance to motorists in evacuations, etc.)  Open carry or concealed carry would have to be consistent with state law.

[spacecommand]

Like I said before we can sit around all day long coming up with different scenarios of every possible bad thing that can ever happen, yes I anticipate responses "police are slow"  etc . Of course the police cannot be everywhere every second.  Again, paramedics/emts , firefighters and other rescue organizations (non law enforcement) aren't armed either, many of these organizations do not allow their members, even if they are concealed carry or otherwise not to carry while performing their official duties. 

Again if you deem a situation to be soo dangerous to assign a security & force protection CAP officer, why not just ask for law enforcement to tag a with you?  This is a different situation then calling in for "back up" when a situation pops up.  Most law enforcement organizations I know won't say "NO" if asked for an officer to tag along during a search.