Force protection and armed CAP members

[JohnKachenmeister]

Except that RealMilitary^TM aren't allowed to carry loaded weapons in CONUS unless:

a) They're a cop (MP, SF, etc...)
b) It's live-fire training time
c) It's an actual war

If RM doesn't feel the need to carry weapons, neither do us CIVILIANS.

Besides, name one time in which CAP members were fired upon. WWII doesn't count.

Back in the 60's it was not unusual for one or two officers on GT's to be armed in FL and other states.  I know of a few situations where venomous snakes met untimely deaths at the hands of CAP officers.  I don't kn ow of any situation where dangerous predator Homo Sapiens were shot, though, just reptiles and maybe a wild hog or two. 

[NIN]

Back in the 60's it was not unusual for one or two officers on GT's to be armed in FL and other states.  I know of a few situations where venomous snakes met untimely deaths at the hands of CAP officers.  I don't kn ow of any situation where dangerous predator Homo Sapiens were shot, though, just reptiles and maybe a wild hog or two.

FL? Hell, I saw it as a cadet in the 1980s in a Northern Tier state.

(Of course, I thought it was a bunch of hooey on a 2 week long SAR school course on an island until the night the bears invaded the camp's garbage pit about 100m from cantonment area.  Had I not seen that black bear rooting around in the garbage with my own eyes, I might say that having weapons around was not needed. Then I was glad to see 2-3 folks with Garands keeping an eye on things...)

Completely different time, though...

[HGjunkie]

Back in the 60's it was not unusual for one or two officers on GT's to be armed in FL and other states.  I know of a few situations where venomous snakes met untimely deaths at the hands of CAP officers.  I don't kn ow of any situation where dangerous predator Homo Sapiens were shot, though, just reptiles and maybe a wild hog or two.

FL? Hell, I saw it as a cadet in the 1980s in a Northern Tier state.

(Of course, I thought it was a bunch of hooey on a 2 week long SAR school course on an island until the night the bears invaded the camp's garbage pit about 100m from cantonment area.  Had I not seen that black bear rooting around in the garbage with my own eyes, I might say that having weapons around was not needed. Then I was glad to see 2-3 folks with Garands keeping an eye on things...)

Completely different time, though...

There were bears on Drummond?

[JohnKachenmeister]

Back in the 60's it was not unusual for one or two officers on GT's to be armed in FL and other states.  I know of a few situations where venomous snakes met untimely deaths at the hands of CAP officers.  I don't kn ow of any situation where dangerous predator Homo Sapiens were shot, though, just reptiles and maybe a wild hog or two.

FL? Hell, I saw it as a cadet in the 1980s in a Northern Tier state.

(Of course, I thought it was a bunch of hooey on a 2 week long SAR school course on an island until the night the bears invaded the camp's garbage pit about 100m from cantonment area.  Had I not seen that black bear rooting around in the garbage with my own eyes, I might say that having weapons around was not needed. Then I was glad to see 2-3 folks with Garands keeping an eye on things...)

Completely different time, though...

Different time, indeed.  Bears have changed a lot since the 80's.

[RADIOMAN015]

Your wing does not face the same challenges as mine does. I know this because I was once a member of Massachusetts Wing.  Here in Arkansas, wilderness takes up more space than incorporated areas.  If we avoided the "area" where there might be a chance of encountering Meth Labs and Marijuana Farms, we would never leave the house. As a former LEO I can tell you that the majority of the growing operations/labs are found by people wandering through the woods.  When a Ground Team is active, we are doing exactly that.  Your experiences do not cover the entire scope of CAP activity.  Though you are entitled to your opinion, so am I and I disagree with you vehemently.

Perhaps this is something your wing needs to address with National because of the problems in your state.  Again my guess is National's decision will be that law enforcement will need to go into any woodlands with you, IF there's a chance there might be a problem OR the risk is just too high CAP doesn't go at all.  I just don't see a national policy of allowing CAP member's at any CAP activity (including going to and from in a CAP uniform) to carry firearms regardless of their "authorizations" from others.

I personally have no agenda on this, BUT it could really get out of control in CAP.  I've heard rumors about a few CAP members in my wing that carry firearms in the trunk of their cars where ever they go.
I'm not sure what affect this would have on them (and CAP) if they were subjected to a random vehicle search at one of the military bases we are allowed to enter as CAP members.    The base I'm familiar with currently doesn't ask anyone if they have any firearms in their vehicles.  I'll have to check if there's any other prohibition signs (other than warning to wear your seat belt)  the next time I'm on the base.

RM

[manfredvonrichthofen]

There is a regulation, no matter how we all feel about it. Until it gets changed there is no reason to be arguing about it.

Please lock this thread it is only leading to arguments.

[caphornbuckle]

Wouldn't all of this go back to the congressional order of "non-combatant"?  It may imply military but could it involve civilian contact as well?  Just asking because it might go higher than CAP can go to authorize firearms.

[NIN]

Different time, indeed.  Bears have changed a lot since the 80's.

No, John, I was more referring to the leadership nowadays getting their undies in a twist over cadets even thinking about weapons, let alone handling them, versus back in those days when cadets actually handled weapons for an operational (although, admittedly, probably completely outside the regulations) reason.

Me thinks the bears are more or less the same today as they were in 1982.

However, to combine a topic:  Imagine the safety shop's response to a cadet getting mauled by a bear on an activity.  "This incident could have been prevented by selecting a less bear-friendly bivouac and training area, and by employing decoy cadets to scare the bear away from operational training."

[NIN]

There were bears on Drummond?

Ding!  Yep.  I saw at least two in the garbage dump, and the morning of one of our foot march bivouacs, we got woken up at zero-dark-thirty and told to get our team fires going as there were bears in the AO.  Talk about huddling around your fire with your teammates wondering who's gonna get eaten first...  Never saw a bear during that episode, but at least one person was carrying a Remington 870, and another, a deputy sheriff, was carrying his duty piece.   We were also warned that there were bocats or something like that in the area, and we believed it.

I went thru the remainder of that course thinking I was gonna get eaten on every latrine trip...

[spacecommand]

Firefighters and paramedics and other rescue workers are put into dangerous situations at times as well (eg, being called out to a gangland shooting, or domestic disturbance, going into a not so nice neighborhood on a call etc etc), if there is danger, the firefighters and paramedics don't pull out guns, they wait and call for LEO backup to cover them, they aren't armed even if they are CCWed for liability reasons.

I really don't see a major need to have armed CAP members (yes we can come up with different scenarios up the ying yang from druggies shooting at CAP planes to being able to defend against UFOs), if CAP members are being put into a situation where they need a gun, then well someone aint following ORM. If there is a time when I feel that I need a gun as a CAP member, is the time I start looking for a new volunteer job.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Different time, indeed.  Bears have changed a lot since the 80's.

No, John, I was more referring to the leadership nowadays getting their undies in a twist over cadets even thinking about weapons, let alone handling them, versus back in those days when cadets actually handled weapons for an operational (although, admittedly, probably completely outside the regulations) reason.

Me thinks the bears are more or less the same today as they were in 1982.

However, to combine a topic:  Imagine the safety shop's response to a cadet getting mauled by a bear on an activity.  "This incident could have been prevented by selecting a less bear-friendly bivouac and training area, and by employing decoy cadets to scare the bear away from operational training."

I was kidding, of course.  But I like your idea of "Decoy cadets."  It seems a good way to lose the slugs and unpopular members of your squadron.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Firefighters and paramedics and other rescue workers are put into dangerous situations at times as well (eg, being called out to a gangland shooting, or domestic disturbance, going into a not so nice neighborhood on a call etc etc), if there is danger, the firefighters and paramedics don't pull out guns, they wait and call for LEO backup to cover them, they aren't armed even if they are CCWed for liability reasons.

I really don't see a major need to have armed CAP members (yes we can come up with different scenarios up the ying yang from druggies shooting at CAP planes to being able to defend against UFOs), if CAP members are being put into a situation where they need a gun, then well someone aint following ORM. If there is a time when I feel that I need a gun as a CAP member, is the time I start looking for a new volunteer job.

You are right, in most situations as a GTL or as an IC, I can call for Law Enfocement support and get it.  But not in ev ery case will that happen.  You can be 5 miles from a major international airport here in FL and encounter the largest venomous snake in North America, the Eastern Diamondback Rattlesnake.  There are wild hogs, alligators of various sizes (6-feet and under usually will run from a human.  Over 6 feet, you are a protein source), and Coral Snakes for which there is no antivenin.  In some situations the choice is to look the other way about sidearms or get out of the ground team business altogether.

[Grumpy]

Back in the 60's it was not unusual for one or two officers on GT's to be armed in FL and other states.  I know of a few situations where venomous snakes met untimely deaths at the hands of CAP officers.  I don't kn ow of any situation where dangerous predator Homo Sapiens were shot, though, just reptiles and maybe a wild hog or two.

FL? Hell, I saw it as a cadet in the 1980s in a Northern Tier state.

(Of course, I thought it was a bunch of hooey on a 2 week long SAR school course on an island until the night the bears invaded the camp's garbage pit about 100m from cantonment area.  Had I not seen that black bear rooting around in the garbage with my own eyes, I might say that having weapons around was not needed. Then I was glad to see 2-3 folks with Garands keeping an eye on things...)

Completely different time, though...

Different time, indeed.  Bears have changed a lot since the 80's.

Yeah, new union.

[davidsinn]

Back in the 60's it was not unusual for one or two officers on GT's to be armed in FL and other states.  I know of a few situations where venomous snakes met untimely deaths at the hands of CAP officers.  I don't kn ow of any situation where dangerous predator Homo Sapiens were shot, though, just reptiles and maybe a wild hog or two.

FL? Hell, I saw it as a cadet in the 1980s in a Northern Tier state.

(Of course, I thought it was a bunch of hooey on a 2 week long SAR school course on an island until the night the bears invaded the camp's garbage pit about 100m from cantonment area.  Had I not seen that black bear rooting around in the garbage with my own eyes, I might say that having weapons around was not needed. Then I was glad to see 2-3 folks with Garands keeping an eye on things...)

Completely different time, though...

Different time, indeed.  Bears have changed a lot since the 80's.

Yeah, new union.

And they can't win a Superbowl for anything

[Eclipse]

In some situations the choice is to look the other way about sidearms or get out of the ground team business altogether.

Looking the other way in regards to a firearm is never an option.  Period.

Period.

If you are really encountering that many threats, CAP does not belong in the area.  The ORM on that is off the charts and
the fact that someone on the team might be concealing a firearm to minimize the threat(s) makes the real numbers even worse.

[Krapenhoeffer]

Besides, even if the Regulation were changed, it still wouldn't matter, because the Law trumps CAP regulation 100% of the time.

In some states, open carry is illegal, while concealed carry is legal with permit. In some states, the opposite is true.

And I know pretty darn well that if the regulation were changed, you can bet my dues money for the next 10 years that Big Brother Blue will decide that fuchsia rank slides will be needed for distinctiveness.

Unless it is written down in the law books that you are required to carry a weapon on you, you will not be carrying a weapon on you while on a CAP activity, or while in a CAP uniform, or when around CAP cadets except as allowed under 52 series regulations.

Seriously, if you're that worried about bad guys when on a mission then:
a) Drag an armed Sheriff's Deputy with your team.
b) Don't go out on the mission.

[Eclipse]

Unless it is written down in the law books that you are required to carry a weapon on you, you will not be carrying a weapon on you while on a CAP activity, or while in a CAP uniform, or when around CAP cadets except as allowed under 52 series regulations.

The inverse is also true - your allowance, or even requirement, to carry a weapon does not give you carte blanche to participate as a CAP member.  Granting that we don't exactly have 15 people to choose from in most cases, I, as a commander, may choose to disallow your participation at a given activity specifically because you're required to carry a firearm (assuming you can't leave it at home).

[Flying Pig]

900-3

a. A member may carry firearms on his/her person when required to do so by law provided he/she has a written statement of proof of such requirement signed by the Wing Commander.

As a cop, there are VERY few LE agencies, if any, that require its employees to be armed 24/7.  I dont know of any.  Some highly encourage, like mine, but Ive never seen one that REQUIRES off duty carry 24/7.  So it would be interesting for a cop/CAP member to claim that clause.  If there are any, Id be curious to know what agencies they are out of curiosity.

On a side note.....

a. CAP assistance to law enforcement agencies which may lead to criminal prosecution is restricted to patrol, surveillance, and reporting only. Requests for such assistance, unless of an emergency nature, must be approved in advance by the Wing and Region Com-manders and coordinated with National Head-quarters/DO. All CAP flights will be in accordance with CAPR 60-1.

This is an extremely broad line.  Patrol and Surveillance and reporting.  Guess what I do all day in my day job?  So short of landing and handling calls and putting hands on bad guys, CAP can pretty much do, by definition, what every other LE aircraft does on a daily basis.  Surveillance and reporting.  Im waiting to fly a CAP plane on a CD mission with a cop in the front seat and call a vehicle pursuit!

[JohnKachenmeister]

In some situations the choice is to look the other way about sidearms or get out of the ground team business altogether.

Looking the other way in regards to a firearm is never an option.  Period.

Period.

If you are really encountering that many threats, CAP does not belong in the area.  The ORM on that is off the charts and
the fact that someone on the team might be concealing a firearm to minimize the threat(s) makes the real numbers even worse.

Then we need to get out of the ground team business altogether.  I would support that.  If we need to have a Law Enf. officer with us, then why can't LE do the search?

[manfredvonrichthofen]

No one should be suggesting that we need to stop performing ground search operations. CAP helps too many people to stop.