Force protection and armed CAP members

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Same with some pilots.

[caphornbuckle]

Ok...I held off as long as I could and figured I should put my two-cents in.

My opinion is that there is no reason for anyone to carry a firearm in CAP.  We are not Law Enforcement and even though we do have our 2nd Amendment Rights (I own three weapons myself and have a Law Enforcement background) we still have those "gun-totin' cowboys" who have never been properly trained in the use of one.

If a situation requires you to use a weapon of any kind, get out of the situation fast and notify the authorities.  A few things to remember here:

1:  You must be willing to KILL your intended target when you use your weapon (and don't give me that "shoot 'em in the leg" stuff...even if you aim for the leg (which is bad anyways) you might still hit him/her in the chest!)
2:  Most bad guys DO SHOOT BACK!!
3:  If one person in your group has a pistol shooting at the target, you set yourself up for having the rest of your unarmed team shot back at as well.

Here's a tip:  If you're in a situation where your life is at stake, get out of that situation.  Don't stick around long enough to fire a shot.  It'll just slow you down.  Besides...How often does CAP need to use a firearm?

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Generally speaking, if someone is willing to shoot someone wearing a military style uniform, turning and running won't deter them from shooting at you. Your best bet is to deter them yourself.

[Krapenhoeffer]

Except that RealMilitary^TM aren't allowed to carry loaded weapons in CONUS unless:

a) They're a cop (MP, SF, etc...)
b) It's live-fire training time
c) It's an actual war

If RM doesn't feel the need to carry weapons, neither do us CIVILIANS.

Besides, name one time in which CAP members were fired upon. WWII doesn't count.

[caphornbuckle]

Generally speaking, if someone is willing to shoot someone wearing a military style uniform, turning and running won't deter them from shooting at you. Your best bet is to deter them yourself.

It may not deter them from shooting at you but a moving target is harder to hit as well.  If someone has you in their sights, the last thing you want to do is help them with their aim by stopping.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

If RM is on crowd control they can be armed, if they are on the new martial law status controlling an area inside the USA, they can be armed, if on alert on base or off base they can be armed.

On your comment about shooting for the leg, Isn't that illegal in all states anyways? I'm pretty sure it is here in Indiana. If you shoot you mush shoot to kill, shooting to mame is categorized as cruel.

[caphornbuckle]

On your comment about shooting for the leg, Isn't that illegal in all states anyways? I'm pretty sure it is here in Indiana. If you shoot you mush shoot to kill, shooting to mame is categorized as cruel.

I believe you are right about Indiana but not for certain.  But like I said, it's bad.  But it's also a fact that there are some out there that believe this is the right thing to do to keep from killing someone, legal or otherwise (poorly trained individuals especially!).

[manfredvonrichthofen]

One more reason to back up what I said before. Personnel should only be allowed to carry a firearm with proper training such as self defense, proficiency (should be updated every six months), proper state licensing, and probably a few good NRA courses. Only then should it be at the discretion of the Squadron commander to SUGGEST to wing level that the member to be allowed to carry a firearm (pistol) on ES missions only. No matter what they don't need to be at the regular meetings.

[Krapenhoeffer]

Regardless, CAP is never on alert for an armed action, nor are we called upon to suppress insurrections/riots.

The Regs are clear: if there is a situation in which violence can occur, we need to be not there. Period.

Besides, I'm (only once) with the lawyers here. Guns open up nasty cans of worms, which will get CAP in plenty of trouble.

Besides, there are plenty of senior members and parents of cadets who don't like handguns, and the idea of non-trained personnel using handguns. Like myself.

No guns for CAP. Ever.

[caphornbuckle]

Even the most highly trained individual wouldn't put himself in front of a bullet if they didn't have to.  In CAP, they don't have to.  On top of that they would also have to defend the rest of ther unarmed team as well.

If the bad guy has, let's say, an automatic AR-15 with a 30-round magazine with an extra 30 on his side (maybe more).  You have a pistol that holds 15 rounds and maybe another magazine.  Do you think you would win in a firefight?  If the bad guys are there, odds are they don't care how legal it is to be carrying such equipment.

[Dad2-4]

I stand by the way I voted: Concealed carry by LEO and those with a CCW license. MOst state CCW laws already prohibit carrying on a military base, so that's taken care of. Do I ever foresee needing a firearm on a CAP mission or meeting? No. On my way to and from a meeting or mission? Ya never know. Lots of armed robberies have happened at gas stations and even in people's own driveways, and carjackings ocassionally happen. If I'm on my way home from a mission at 2 am I don't like being restricted from concealed carry just because I'm in uniform.

[Krapenhoeffer]

Why? Why the need to carry a gun at all times?

If you're in the field, well, you aren't going into the field if you're going to need a gun.

Driving? Accelerators work too when trying to stop carjackings.

Convenience Store / Gas station? Attendants are trained and expected to comply with demands of robbers. They can be fired and sued for displaying force.

Besides, that's just it. If you're in uniform, you shouldn't be carrying a gun (unless, of course the gun is part of that uniform). Period.

That's kind of what the whole uniform thing is about. You give up some personal freedom to better serve the whole.

Besides, even if CAP were to go willy nilly and change the regs, that doesn't stop the Air Force from saying "NO." And if the AF is smart (which they are), they'll say NO.

Too many legal problems with an armed CAP... Not enough benefit...

Besides, in addition to state laws regarding military bases (which don't matter anyway, because military installations are Federal Property), there is also the issue of airports (no guns there unless you're LEO in uniform and on duty), schools (same rule as airports), private property (Nobody carries guns on my land unless I give them written permission to do so. Cops are an exception).

In fact, unless I'm mistaken, you can't bring weapons on private property without consent of the land owner. What if the ELT is going off on private land? Now you can't go into the field, because you're armed, and CAP can't trump landowner rights, because we have the legal authority of average Joe Schmo.

Unless the law says you have to pack heat (i.e. AK), don't pack heat...

[BillB]

To answer the question has CAP ever been fired on, the answer is yes.  During the a950's and 60s when most SAR missions used member owened aircraft, there were several instances of aircraft being fired on. The shooters appear to have been moonshiners in the southeast U.S. I believe there were two instances in Florida, and one in Alabama that I was aware of. Appeared that those on the ground didn't like small aircraft flying over their stills or activities at a low altitude. There were never any reported injuries from the shootings, however minor damage was done to aircraft

[sarmed1]

...you can't bring weapons on private property without consent of the land owner.

Usually its more along the lines of you cant carry a firearm onto/into private property if its posted "no firearms"...

mk

[RRLE]

You also cannot carry in federal buidlings. That includes the parking lots and includes US Post Offices.

On your comment about shooting for the leg, Isn't that illegal in all states anyways? I'm pretty sure it is here in Indiana. If you shoot you mush shoot to kill, shooting to mame is categorized as cruel.

You do not shoot to kill or to maim. You shoot to stop the attack and incapacitate the attacker. Sometimes the attacker dies.

Florida Statutes Chapter 790 is the Weapons and Firearms chapter.

790.01 Bans anyone, excluding police officers and a few others, from carrying concealed unless they have a permit issued according to 790.06

790..053 Bns the open carry of firearms, LEOs excepted.

790.06 Lists the criteria for a concealed carry permit.

790.25.5 Allows an unlicensed person to have a firearm in a locked container in their car.

790.251 Prohitits private employers from banning employees storing their guns in the employee's car in the employer's parking lot. The guns must be in a locked container to fall under this provision.

776.013.1 Is Florida's Castle Doctrine. Note that it discusses "using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another". Florida does not insist on 'shoot to kill'. And the statute does not prohibit maiming shots.

776.013.3. Is Florida's relatively new Stand Your Ground Statute.

A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

Again note the staute allows for but does not require that deadly force be used.

[Krapenhoeffer]

But CAP on the ground has never been fired upon, correct?

Also, you may have Castle Doctrine as law in some states, but in some states there is still a Duty to Retreat.

Also, not all states have CCW as legal. IL and WI being the big ones. Open Carry is still a bit of an issue in WI.

And "no weapons" is to be assumed on private land unless the owner has consented otherwise.

Also, nobody has mentioned what happens when an adult, who is legally the same as everybody else, is walking around with other people's children, while carrying loaded weapons.

What happens if the parents of those children do not like guns? Bye bye Cadet Snuffy.

[cap235629]

CCW= CONCEALED. I carry a pistol everywhere I go and unless I want you to know, you never will. (I call it my shoot him in the nose so you can get to the car and get the big gun, gun) That being said, driving home from ANY CAP activity is not PART of the CAP activity or we would be covered under the appropriate insurance.

I live in the land of Meth Labs and Crops of Mary Jane. Having the ability to defend myself during a tactical withdrawal has it's merits in my eyes.

Please remember, as I said previously, at one time CAP was ISSUED firearms.

[RADIOMAN015]

CCW= CONCEALED. I carry a pistol everywhere I go and unless I want you to know, you never will. That being said, driving home from ANY CAP activity is not PART of the CAP activity or we would be covered under the appropriate insurance.

I live in the land of Meth Labs and Crops of Mary Jane. Having the ability to defend myself during a tactical withdrawal has it's merits in my eyes.

Please remember, as I said previously, at one time CAP was ISSUED firearms.

I don't think you should be carry a weapon (concealed or not) while in a CAP uniform period .  If you want to do this than change in civilian clothes while in transit.   You definitely should not have that weapon on you at a CAP activity.  CAP activities should not be conducted in in any area where we need firearms to protect the members.  I think it's pretty clear CAP wise that if you suspect there's going to be a problem you need to get law enforcement support OR even avoid the area. 

CAP policy wise is NOT going to allow members to carry firearms, no matter what.   Insurance/legal liability wise it would be a mine field, and even the AF isn't going to allow this especially on AF funded missions.   All AF members do not carry weapons, even in war zones. 

HOWEVER, personally, I wouldn't have any issue with a CAP member who is in valid paid law enforcement job during the day carrying a concealed weapons at any CAP activity.  Anytime we have any activity off the base, I do believe in maintaining strong security/force protecton situational awareness, due to the potential for unstable individuals possibly targeting CAP (not because we are CAP, BUT because of the uniforms alone)   

My issue is with other CAP senior members carrying weapons (who are not trained law enforcement officers).   The organization overall attracts a fair amount of wanna bees, "ES rambos", bling collectors etc. that can present a hazard to other CAP members, and I fear that these folks; who are accidents waiting to happend, IF armed would result in a serious accident.   

RM

[Trung Si Ma]

CCW= CONCEALED.

+1

I don't think ...

+1

[cap235629]

CAP activities should not be conducted in in any area where we need firearms to protect the members.  I think it's pretty clear CAP wise that if you suspect there's going to be a problem you need to get law enforcement support OR even avoid the area. 

Your wing does not face the same challenges as mine does. I know this because I was once a member of Massachusetts Wing.  Here in Arkansas, wilderness takes up more space than incorporated areas.  If we avoided the "area" where there might be a chance of encountering Meth Labs and Marijuana Farms, we would never leave the house. As a former LEO I can tell you that the majority of the growing operations/labs are found by people wandering through the woods.  When a Ground Team is active, we are doing exactly that.  Your experiences do not cover the entire scope of CAP activity.  Though you are entitled to your opinion, so am I and I disagree with you vehemently.