Force protection and armed CAP members

[mynetdude]

I was assaulted just yesterday on a ground team mission. 

It was a dog...he just wanted to say hi to anyone on his dirt road.   

If he had been armed we could have been in deep since we were 30 miles from population!
http://blogs.pitch.com/plog/dog.JPG

Just carry a can of Wasp spray. It will take down a Pit Bull at 30 feet if you can hit him in the mouth with the stream. And since he has his mouth open while he's barking at you that shouldn't be much of a problem.

Of course after you take out "Spike" you'll have to deal with the owner.

Check the laws on carrying WASP spray. If you have it on you just for protection and use it say good bye to your house and everything else you own because you will be sued

That would be true, however if you limited wasp spray to your home(same with a firearm) and someone enters your home and becomes a threat to you the I would use it however I don't know about being sued though but you can just get sued for driving down the road these days.

[Pumbaa]

There are potential legal issues with using wasp spray as a protective device. The letter says "wasp spray temporarily blinds an attacker until they get to the hospital for an antidote." Wasp spray is a poison design to KILL WASP. The active ingredient in most insect sprays including wasp sprays is synthetic pyrethroid, allethin. (US Patent 4234567)  Pyrethrins are used in many varieties of insecticide, fogging products and in some pet products. Pyrethrins are neurotoxins that attack the nervous systems of all insects. Care should be taken when using this substance around humans and animals. Don't take my word for it, check it out yourself.  Overdose and toxicity can result in a variety of symptoms, especially in pets, including drooling, lethargy, muscle tremors, vomiting, seizures and death. Toxicity symptoms in humans include asthmatic breathing, sneezing, nasal stuffiness, headache, nausea, in coordination, tremors, convulsions, facial flushing and swelling, and burning, itching sensation, or worse.

Given that the United States is the most litigious society there is, you could find yourself sued if you purposely used Wasp Spray and it did harm. Stranger things have happened. Many of the sprays actually give a warning that its violation of Federal law to use the product other than for what is was intended for. Again In some US jurisdiction it is actually illegal to use any form of self-defense sprays other than pepper spray. (again check the laws in your jurisdiction).

For example look at the Michigan Penal Code, it says  the only defense spray that is legal is a type of tear gas known as CS, so pepper spray itself is illegal. Canisters of CS may not contain anything above 35 grams of the spray, and they are not allowed to be made up of more than 2% of the active ingredient Oleoresin Capsicum (OC). This law is in place to ensure that people do not take advantage of their self defense weapon and use it for any other purpose than their own protection. 

However, if it's a matter of you or them, use what you have to use. Self preservation takes precedence.

However, if you planned to use it and the attacker died, it could be seen as premeditated murder. Again stranger things have happened.

[JeffDG]

There are potential legal issues with using wasp spray as a protective device. The letter says "wasp spray temporarily blinds an attacker until they get to the hospital for an antidote." Wasp spray is a poison design to KILL WASP. The active ingredient in most insect sprays including wasp sprays is synthetic pyrethroid, allethin. (US Patent 4234567)  Pyrethrins are used in many varieties of insecticide, fogging products and in some pet products. Pyrethrins are neurotoxins that attack the nervous systems of all insects. Care should be taken when using this substance around humans and animals. Don't take my word for it, check it out yourself.  Overdose and toxicity can result in a variety of symptoms, especially in pets, including drooling, lethargy, muscle tremors, vomiting, seizures and death. Toxicity symptoms in humans include asthmatic breathing, sneezing, nasal stuffiness, headache, nausea, in coordination, tremors, convulsions, facial flushing and swelling, and burning, itching sensation, or worse.

Given that the United States is the most litigious society there is, you could find yourself sued if you purposely used Wasp Spray and it did harm. Stranger things have happened. Many of the sprays actually give a warning that its violation of Federal law to use the product other than for what is was intended for. Again In some US jurisdiction it is actually illegal to use any form of self-defense sprays other than pepper spray. (again check the laws in your jurisdiction).

For example look at the Michigan Penal Code, it says  the only defense spray that is legal is a type of tear gas known as CS, so pepper spray itself is illegal. Canisters of CS may not contain anything above 35 grams of the spray, and they are not allowed to be made up of more than 2% of the active ingredient Oleoresin Capsicum (OC). This law is in place to ensure that people do not take advantage of their self defense weapon and use it for any other purpose than their own protection.  However, if it a matter of you or them, use what you have to use. Self preservation takes precedence. However, if you planned to use it and the attacker died, it could be see as premeditated murder. Again stranger things have happened.

Most insecticides are products of research in chemical weapons, primarily nerve gas.

[GTCommando]

Here's what I think. I agree that if we have to consider carrying a firearm for protection in a certain area, than we should probably take a step back and reconsider entering that area at all. However, any member with the proper legal permissions should be given the right to judge for themselves whether to carry a CONCEALED firearm for purpose of protection only, based on the situation and given the consent of their team leader. However, the current regs state that we as a volunteer organization can only provide PASSIVE assistance to LE officials, i.e. traffic control, site surveillance, etc.

One last thing to remember though: When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

[Patterson]

^ 5 months to think of a response is quick!!!   

[GTCommando]

^ Why thank you, kind sir.    Waddya think of my closing comment?

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I don't know, this could be a very interesting subject were the regs flipped. If we were able to carry firearms with proper licenses and the situation came up to use that pistol or face death or serious injury of one of your cadets, how would most Senior Members in CAP act? Would they be able to pull the trigger? Or would the pistol stay in it's holster?

If SMs were able to carry though, a large deterrent would be seeing the pistol in open sight, such as on your pistol belt. I would have to say my thought is IF we were able to carry with proper licensing, it would need to be carried in the open, just for the simple fact that, ok this person isn't trying to hide it, I'll ask for their license. Where as, is that bulge on his back a pistol? I wonder if he has his license or if he is just trying to get away with it? I wonder how many who saw the bulge would really ask.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

State laws on concealed vs. open carry vary quite a bit. If, a very large if, this change was made you would have to allow for state law which could conflict with the rules about crash site protection.

[Spaceman3750]

You also have posse comitatus involved here IMHO. Not necessarily in function, but in appearance. If a member of the public were to see someone wearing a "military" uniform (even if RM doesn't wear them anymore, most of the general population doesn't realize that) and openly carrying a firearm it could convey some enforcement function contrary to PCA.

[Patterson]

^ hahahhahahhahaha

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Anytime PC is brought up in a thread here, it usually ends in bitter heated debate and a quick lock.

People kept bringing up PC so much (in the past) that we lost "USAF AUX" from everything.  Thanks!!

[Spaceman3750]

^ hahahhahahhahaha

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Anytime PC is brought up in a thread here, it usually ends in bitter heated debate and a quick lock.

People kept bringing up PC so much (in the past) that we lost "USAF AUX" from everything.  Thanks!!

Obviously, that was not my intention. You can't ignore it though.

[Ned]

To heck with PC.  That's easy compared to the intricacies of trying to come up with the proper open-carry holsters to go with each uniform.

Let's see . . . we're gonna need holsters to go with service dress, BDUs, and flight suits (all colors) to start.  But that should be relatively easy since the AF probably already has some authorized models for us to work with.

The corporate equivalents will be trickier, I suspect.  Given the approaching phase out of the TPU, we will still need functional and professional-appearing holsters for the blazer, aviator shirt combinations, and the BBDU/BFU.

And it is not just the holsters, of course, but the duty belts to go with them.

And since people tend to post passionately about both guns and uniforms this has all the making of the Perfect Storm of Uniform Threads!

Standing by . . . .

[BillB]

Why even have this thread. The National Board is not going to change the Regulation about CAP members being armed. To much of a possible Corporate liability.

[Eclipse]

Is this Necro-thread day?

[Майор Хаткевич]

Is this Necro-thread day?

Only to one person.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Let me try to sneak some common sense in here.

PCA is not an issue.  Any person can defend themselves and defend underage cadets in their care.  That is not a law enforcement function.  PCA does not prohibit someone from looking in such a manner as to allow a clueless person to conclude they are police.

Some states allow open carry of weapons.  Some don't.  Some states allow licensed concealed carry, some don't.  A couple of states allow unlicensed carry, and one REQUIRES weapons to be carried in certain areas.

Some states follow the English Common Law standard and require the attacked person to retreat as far as possible before resorting to self-defense.   Two states at least (FL and TX) allow attack victims to defend themselves without retreat.

My point is that I'm a pretty smart guy, and I could not write a CAP-wide regulation that would permit carrying weapons and meet the standards of all states laws, including writing rules of engagement.  The best I can come up with is:

"CAP membership conveys no special authority to carry or use firearms.  Members should be aware of laws in their state, and scrupulously comply with them.  Illegal carrying or use of firearms while in uniform or acting as a member of CAP will be grounds for disciplinary action including termination of membership."

[davidsinn]

Two states at least (FL and TX) allow attack victims to defend themselves without retreat.

Since I've already spoken my piece in this thread I won't rehash it but I will impart a little knowledge: In Indiana we have a stand your ground and a castle law. I do not have to retreat from danger before using deadly force anywhere and I can legally end any intruder in my home after giving just one warning. We have life time CC permits and if you have a CCP, open carry is allowed just not encouraged because the sight of a firearm tends to turn some people into little whiney girls.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Hear hear Sinn.

[JeffDG]

Let me try to sneak some common sense in here.
...
My point is that I'm a pretty smart guy, and I could not write a CAP-wide regulation that would permit carrying weapons and meet the standards of all states laws, including writing rules of engagement.  The best I can come up with is:

"CAP membership conveys no special authority to carry or use firearms.  Members should be aware of laws in their state, and scrupulously comply with them.  Illegal carrying or use of firearms while in uniform or acting as a member of CAP will be grounds for disciplinary action including termination of membership."

While I'll not take a position on the overall concept of the thread, I will comment that sometimes it's just not appropriate to have a CAP-wide regulation for something.  in this case, particularly with the variance in laws among the states, CAP has a ready answer:  Wings.

If it were considered appropriate for CAP to permit concealed or open carry, then I would suggest a national regulation permitting same, along with a requirement for a Wing supplement ensuring that things were done within local laws.  I would even word the national regulation that the present prohibition would be in effect in any wing without such a supplement.

Not everything has to be done the same across the entire country.  "Force protection" has a completely different meaning in Detroit than it does in Alaska.  That's part of the reason why organizations, including CAP, tend to have regional and state-based organizational structures.  Having such a regional structure, and at the same time demanding that every regulation be consistent nationally, defeats that purpose entirely.

[Eclipse]

"Force Protection" is a non-issue for CAP members.  If we need it, it is provided by LEA's or the military, not fellow members.

The only reason there is any loophole regarding the carry of firearms is for LEO's who are members and are required by local law to
carry while off duty.

As with most things like this, common sense and maturity always wins, and those who possess at least one are a non-issue.  I regularly work with a number of LEO's who carry off duty and the only reason I am aware of it is that I may have glanced it while getting dressed or it is mentioned in passing for a legit reason.

Otherwise, they don't make a big deal about it, which is how it should be, and how it would not be if we whole-scale allowed the carry of a firearm in uniform.  Think some gung-ho GT's are bad?