Force protection and armed CAP members

[davidsinn]

On a Sarex we had a local Sherrif Deputy visit our activity and observe a UDF scenario where there was an unattended vehicle and what was described as illegal drug activity. He told us that when LEOs encounter such things there's the matter of what to do. He noted that we should not have approached the vehicle. He asked why none of us hadn't observed from a distance with binoculars. When we go to remote areas on UDF or SAR we usually encounter private property. I'm inclined to call Law Enforcement for advice and/or assistance at such a time. We're told that in many wooded areas particularly near rivers there are places where illegal substances grow better. In such places we may encounter booby trap devices. The Deputy is likely to warn us of the hazard  and there is a no go decision. Deputies have gone in with us on private property and we leave the hazard to them.  If you encounter a dog or wild animal as a group the animal is more likely to avoid you. I lived in Washington State where some of the bears look like a car with furr. And then of course there are mountain lions. CAP patrols are usually going to have to seek them out. If CAP folks particularly Cadets are killed by drug bandits or terrorists my guess is that the state governor is going to bring out the posse in terms of maximum Law Enforcement maybe even the NG. I recommend hazard avoidance. If CAP Members who are LEO are present they should have access to the hardware they choose and why not it's what they do.

Billfold:

I was with you until the last sentence.  Everything your wrote spoke of ORM and prudence and good sense.  Then you left me.     CAP is NOT a law enforcement agency, even if some of our members are in LE.  For legal, public policy, and public relations reasons, we can't blur that line, IMHO.

None of use are talking of turning us into LEOs. We just want to be able to protect ourselves.

[Major Lord]

Here is a good reason to exclude CAP members from carrying Flareguns as an alternative to actual firearms:

http://yachtpals.com/node/912

And its funny.

Major Lord

[lordmonar]

Okay...if were going to allow it.....how would we go about doing it?

I mean we don't just give the keys to a CAP van to just anyone....there is a process that we use and double check...to make sure you are a safe driver.....are just going to take the member's word for it that he can handle the weapon safely?

CCW permits in some states require training...but not all.  Do we recognise reciprocity?  Does a CCW from FL allow a CAP member to carry in ARWG...or must it be an AR CCW?

Who signs the CAP CCW card?  Unit commander, wing, region?

[tdepp]

^One difference.  There's a Second Amendment Right to bear arms (or is it bare arms when you roll your BDU sleeves up  ) There's no Constitutional right to bear vans.  And if a bear were in a CAP van, I'd be worried, though I do see bears riding motorcycles in the circus so some can apparently drive. 

On a more serious note, under an ORM analysis, why would we be sending people into areas that are known to be crawling with armed methheads or hungry mountain lions?  And as a legal officer, if there is a shooting by a CAP, IMHO we are talking about a scheist sturm of litigation and potential liability (and bad press).  I don't see the additional safety it may provide outweighing the risks to members, the public, and our public perception.

I do remember in the History area of CAPTalk that someone posted a CAP report of an accidental shooting between members when we did allow guns in certain situations.  It is still embarrassing to read 60 years later. 

I go back to our missions: disaster services, cadet training, aerospace education, and beotching about Vanguard and uniform regulations.  How does packing heat enhance them?

[Flying Pig]

We show up to a Wing Conference, dump pistols out on the table and ask no questions.

Looks like some of us have already taken matters into our own hands.

http://captalk.net/index.php?action=mgallery;sa=item;id=157

[lordmonar]

I go back to our missions: disaster services, cadet training, aerospace education, and beotching about Vanguard and uniform regulations.  How does packing heat enhance them?

It would look cool on the Ground Team uniform to be packing a Desert Eagle under your left arm. 

[Major Lord]

Oh man, I sure would hate to inconvenience CAP by having to shoot someone in defense of my life or those of my team members! Those poor lawyers would have to spend hours filling out forms!

Major Lord
Machetes are still okay though, right?

[Short Field]

Looks like some of us have already taken matters into our own hands.

You can only hope she is doing that as a joke...  And it is a "she" because no self respecting male member would be wearing hair that long in BDUs?   Oops - my bad, when I blew it up, he is wearing ear protectors. 

[Short Field]

Oh man, I sure would hate to inconvenience CAP by having to shoot someone in defense of my life or those of my team members!
Machetes are still okay though, right?

Score Card for CAP members carrying guns:  Bad Guys - 0, Cadets - 1. 

[ßτε]

Looks like some of us have already taken matters into our own hands.

You can only hope she is doing that as a joke...  And it is a "she" because no self respecting male member would be wearing hair that long in BDUs?

What long hair do you see? I don't see any hair other than eyebrows and arm hair.

[SarDragon]

Knowing as I do the guy in the pic, I'm sure that it was totally posed.

[cap235629]

CCW permits in some states require training...but not all.  Do we recognise reciprocity?  Does a CCW from FL allow a CAP member to carry in ARWG...or must it be an AR CCW?

Arkansas and Florida are reciprocal states with regard to CCW.  In fact there are 32 states with reciprocity agreements with Arkansas.  They all have similar requirements, most importantly training and background checks.  Vermont and Arizona do not require a license but Arizona issues a permit that will allow the holder to carry in states that have reciprocity.

So in essence, a minimum of 32 states of 50 REQUIRE training and background checks and 2 others, Massachusetts and New Hampshire, have more stringent requirements and do not recognize other states licenses so the other states do not recognize theirs.  That is 68% of the country.

[davidsinn]

Okay...if were going to allow it.....how would we go about doing it?

I mean we don't just give the keys to a CAP van to just anyone....there is a process that we use and double check...to make sure you are a safe driver.....are just going to take the member's word for it that he can handle the weapon safely?

CCW permits in some states require training...but not all.  Do we recognise reciprocity?  Does a CCW from FL allow a CAP member to carry in ARWG...or must it be an AR CCW?

Who signs the CAP CCW card?  Unit commander, wing, region?

Simple. If you are legally able to carry in the location you are at, at the current time, then you are good to go.

[lordmonar]

Okay...if were going to allow it.....how would we go about doing it?

I mean we don't just give the keys to a CAP van to just anyone....there is a process that we use and double check...to make sure you are a safe driver.....are just going to take the member's word for it that he can handle the weapon safely?

CCW permits in some states require training...but not all.  Do we recognise reciprocity?  Does a CCW from FL allow a CAP member to carry in ARWG...or must it be an AR CCW?

Who signs the CAP CCW card?  Unit commander, wing, region?

Simple. If you are legally able to carry in the location you are at, at the current time, then you are good to go.

Fail.

There are people in my squadron who I would not want to carry a water gun let alone a loaded firearm.

Squaron commander must approve. 

[cap235629]

Okay...if were going to allow it.....how would we go about doing it?

I mean we don't just give the keys to a CAP van to just anyone....there is a process that we use and double check...to make sure you are a safe driver.....are just going to take the member's word for it that he can handle the weapon safely?

CCW permits in some states require training...but not all.  Do we recognise reciprocity?  Does a CCW from FL allow a CAP member to carry in ARWG...or must it be an AR CCW?

Who signs the CAP CCW card?  Unit commander, wing, region?

Simple. If you are legally able to carry in the location you are at, at the current time, then you are good to go.

Fail.

There are people in my squadron who I would not want to carry a water gun let alone a loaded firearm.

Squaron commander must approve. 

I would think that this was too arbitrary.....

[billford1]

On a Sarex we had a local Sherrif Deputy visit our activity and observe a UDF scenario where there was an unattended vehicle and what was described as illegal drug activity. He told us that when LEOs encounter such things there's the matter of what to do. He noted that we should not have approached the vehicle. He asked why none of us hadn't observed from a distance with binoculars. When we go to remote areas on UDF or SAR we usually encounter private property. I'm inclined to call Law Enforcement for advice and/or assistance at such a time. We're told that in many wooded areas particularly near rivers there are places where illegal substances grow better. In such places we may encounter booby trap devices. The Deputy is likely to warn us of the hazard  and there is a no go decision. Deputies have gone in with us on private property and we leave the hazard to them.  If you encounter a dog or wild animal as a group the animal is more likely to avoid you. I lived in Washington State where some of the bears look like a car with furr. And then of course there are mountain lions. CAP patrols are usually going to have to seek them out. If CAP folks particularly Cadets are killed by drug bandits or terrorists my guess is that the state governor is going to bring out the posse in terms of maximum Law Enforcement maybe even the NG. I recommend hazard avoidance. If CAP Members who are LEO are present they should have access to the hardware they choose and why not it's what they do.

Billfold:

I was with you until the last sentence.  Everything your wrote spoke of ORM and prudence and good sense.  Then you left me.     CAP is NOT a law enforcement agency, even if some of our members are in LE.  For legal, public policy, and public relations reasons, we can't blur that line, IMHO.

Sir I prefer CAP the way it's been but there are places as mentioned on this forum where there are hazards that are difficult to avoid. If you live where mission activity means a likely encounter with armed 2 legged animals you've got to consider practical considerations. I think it would be great if local Police or Sherriff Deputies came along as part of a CAP Mission but can we count on that? I know a number of LEOs in CAP who when on SAR or UDF can be counted on to be unarmed. They are the ones who perhaps should be allowed to carry what they do when off duty and concealed to help the CAP image. A Police radio would be great too. The LEO CAP member who's present will likely guide the team to safety. For the worst cases like down South CAP LAW should be amended to allow equipment that is adequate for the occasion. At such a time I would be less worried about policy and public image when we've tried to follow all the rules and be safe.

[Short Field]

For the worst cases like down South CAP LAW should be amended to allow equipment that is adequate for the occasion. At such a time I would be less worried about policy and public image when we've tried to follow all the rules and be safe.

I can just see us issuing M4 Carbines and M9 pistols to all the senior members.  Then we can have heated discussions on why are cadets not allowed to carry a M4 Carbine.

We asked for examples where CAP ground teams were injured or kidnapped or whatever and would have been saved if they had been carrying weapons.  The only case we got was where a Senior Member shot and killed a cadet by accident.

[davidsinn]

For the worst cases like down South CAP LAW should be amended to allow equipment that is adequate for the occasion. At such a time I would be less worried about policy and public image when we've tried to follow all the rules and be safe.

I can just see us issuing M4 Carbines and M9 pistols to all the senior members.  Then we can have heated discussions on why are cadets not allowed to carry a M4 Carbine.

We asked for examples where CAP ground teams were injured or kidnapped or whatever and would have been saved if they had been carrying weapons.  The only case we got was where a Senior Member shot and killed a cadet by accident.

Isn't the whole point of the safety program to be proactive not reactive? Will it take a dead cadet before some people recognize that the world is a dangerous place? You don't have to go out of your way to be in danger. What if you stop for gas after a meeting and somebody decides to rob the place? Just because of your uniform you just became a target. Because of a decision made a long time ago you do not have the ability to defend yourself while selflessly donating your time.

[Rotorhead]

If you live where mission activity means a likely encounter with armed 2 legged animals you've got to consider practical considerations.

Once again: How many CAP GT Missions have encountered these people?

[Rotorhead]

For the worst cases like down South CAP LAW should be amended to allow equipment that is adequate for the occasion. At such a time I would be less worried about policy and public image when we've tried to follow all the rules and be safe.

I can just see us issuing M4 Carbines and M9 pistols to all the senior members.  Then we can have heated discussions on why are cadets not allowed to carry a M4 Carbine.

We asked for examples where CAP ground teams were injured or kidnapped or whatever and would have been saved if they had been carrying weapons.  The only case we got was where a Senior Member shot and killed a cadet by accident.

Isn't the whole point of the safety program to be proactive not reactive? Will it take a dead cadet before some people recognize that the world is a dangerous place? You don't have to go out of your way to be in danger. What if you stop for gas after a meeting and somebody decides to rob the place? Just because of your uniform you just became a target. Because of a decision made a long time ago you do not have the ability to defend yourself while selflessly donating your time.

Man, I don't think I'd go out at all if I felt the need to carry a weapon while stopping for gas.