Force protection and armed CAP members

[heliodoc]

Alright Mr Sinn

You win on that account......still CAP can request or FIND a new FTX  location if threatened by bad guys......or stay home

CAP or personal choice..

[RiverAux]

I'm a little surprised that twice as many people are in favor of allowing any CAP member with a permit to carry a concealed weapon than those in favor of allowing law enforcement officers to carry a concealed weapon.  Maybe people were only voting once.  I would think that there would be far more people willing to let LEOs carry than regular CAP members. 

[davidsinn]

I'm a little surprised that twice as many people are in favor of allowing any CAP member with a permit to carry a concealed weapon than those in favor of allowing law enforcement officers to carry a concealed weapon.  Maybe people were only voting once.  I would think that there would be far more people willing to let LEOs carry than regular CAP members.

I think the poll only allows one vote per person.

[tsrup]

I'm a little surprised that twice as many people are in favor of allowing any CAP member with a permit to carry a concealed weapon than those in favor of allowing law enforcement officers to carry a concealed weapon.  Maybe people were only voting once.  I would think that there would be far more people willing to let LEOs carry than regular CAP members.

It says "any senior member with proper licenses".  That includes LEOs.

So think of it as inclusive, not exclusive.

[Major Lord]

The choice of "The regulation is fine as is" also includes the subset of LEO's who are obligated to carry a firearm by law or policy ( with the Wing-Kings approval) so there is not really a "no guns at all" choice in the question bank.

Major Lord

[Rotorhead]

. Unfortunately NHQ has seen fit to castrate my ability to protect myself from bad dudes.

If it is too risky for you to go unarmed into the woods, then don't go.

Precisely.

[Short Field]

Anecdotal? The link between cigarettes smoking and lung cancer is anecdotal.

Anecdotal?

[RRLE]

a gun can be used to shoot at things other than other people, and there's plenty of wilderness out there with fun things like cougars, bears, and the like.

It takes an awfully big handgun (think 41 and 44 magnum and up) to reliably bring down a bear. Even very experienced handgunners often need more then one shot. How many CAPers who are just foaming at the mouth to go packin' even have experience with that kind of handgun? Shot a bear with anything smaller and you probably just made him even madder. Pepper spray works less then 50% of the time on bears and really, really ticks them off.

And if you are really concerned about this kind of thing, bears are probably not your main animal to be concerned about. Wild hogs and pigs are getting to be something of an epidemic in parts of the country. They are small (relative to bears) and therefore harder to hit. They are also very territorial and aggressive. Add in mean, big tusks and a thick layer of fat and grizzle and you probably don't want to take them on with anything smaller then a rifle in a decent caliber - no 22 centerfires.

[heliodoc]

CAP member and guns without necessary training and annual refreshers..


IT's a CAP ORM nightmare waiting to happen...if you are buying the new CAP "safety program."  A recent addition that should have been established in CAP while the miliary has been doing for years and CAP has tried to emulate 'til recently to CYA itself.

If CAP is worried about its training, SAREX's, and whatnot and wants a controlled environment....then contact the Guard on their training facilities when they are not in full (which I know is sometimes impossible) training mode.  I am sure some accommodations can be made. I know the Guard has been pretty open minded with CAP in the Wing I am in...

AND if CAP is afraid of the big bad animals in the woods, DO NOT GO.   This coming from a Forester who has spent numerous outings marking timber, fighting fire, etc in the natural resource field.  I did not carry a weapon........ but there some times I thought of it.

To many CAPers do not spend enough time in the woods to feel very comfortable and I am sure there are plenty-o-meth labs out there, but they are not in  EVERY square inch of training grounds.

If CAP wants to train with weapons nationwide....it's time for the illustrious leadership to start applying for grants to PAY for that training NATIONWIDE and FORMALIZE it....Otherwise its just ANOTHER CAP paper tiger that is roosting and weathering away, doing nothing useful for the PAYING membership!!

In general, CAP is still a VOLUNTEER organization.  No one is forcing anyone near meth labs (they do happen) or going to the big bad woods.

CAPers....practice your ORM we have in the civilian world and military.  We sometime go out to the big bad woods unarmed...

Its the chances one takes after the ORM is conducted.  Oh what did we do before ORM??   Same.  Went to the big bad woods unarmed most of the time

Yep,  I know its a big bad world out there with meth labs and all.....CAP still has a choice go or don't go.  Life is still full of chances that even CAP can not be ready for every little incident with a rifle or handgun

[tdepp]

Mr Sinn

"Yeah that will go over real well."  Offered what the real world does and you shoot it down.....AWWW  I am walking away from the keyboard with a load of tears.  I,  I , I  want to quit CAP now that my ideas was shot down....BS

Do not know your location or situation

BUT YOU DO have a choice of where to hold an FTX and it can be at some controlled locations

Take a hint from the operators who do this on a regular basis....MAY I STRONGLY suggest you visit your local SO / LE types and SEE if they would not mind doing a patrol around your FTX site

Some of my ideas aren't really that bad..as the professionals do it every day

CAP..........once again playing on a island all their own and not reaching to the community for some goodwill to LE just to see or request

My county has precisely one officer on duty over night. Average response time is upwards of 20 minutes. We have methheads running rampant. There is no guaranteed safe place. Even my own backyard is a potential danger area because of how far from the road we are and we have some woods surrounded by corn fields. Know what this is? I have these parked in my yard during the spring. They are visible from a major hiway. I don't go farther than 50 feet from my house at night during March and April because methheads love to steal NH3 and I always make sure the 12 Ga. is loaded and accessible just in case. A couple of months ago we had a shootout at the other end of the county. It was like the 20s all over again because the cops where out gunned full auto vs pump shotguns.

Living in Sinn:

Sounds like you live on the set of "Deliverance."     Rather than buying a gun or equipping your CAP squadron members with 9 mms, I'd move to a safer locale.  Or get your sheriff off his arse and tell him to go after these dirtbags.

On a more serious note, here in SoDak, our local meth manufacturing has been nearly eliminated.  Not by the diligent efforts of the DEA and local LEOs or the Dare Program, but because of cut-rate Mexican meth.  The Mexicans are apparently the Wal-Mart of the meth trade and have driven the mom and pop meth makers out of business because of price point.   They can make the stuff so much cheaper than the local methheads with their mega-labs.  The stuff comes up from Mexico to Salt Lake, Denver and then on to SD.  They'll then use locals to distribute. 

I'm not saying there still aren't meth houses here in the Rushmore State.  But they are now much less prevelant.

My source on this you ask? Our local DEA agents in Sioux Falls, who arrest folks I represent on federal court appointments from time to time.

[tdepp]

a gun can be used to shoot at things other than other people, and there's plenty of wilderness out there with fun things like cougars, bears, and the like.

It takes an awfully big handgun (think 41 and 44 magnum and up) to reliably bring down a bear. Even very experienced handgunners often need more then one shot. How many CAPers who are just foaming at the mouth to go packin' even have experience with that kind of handgun? Shot a bear with anything smaller and you probably just made him even madder. Pepper spray works less then 50% of the time on bears and really, really ticks them off.

And if you are really concerned about this kind of thing, bears are probably not your main animal to be concerned about. Wild hogs and pigs are getting to be something of an epidemic in parts of the country. They are small (relative to bears) and therefore harder to hit. They are also very territorial and aggressive. Add in mean, big tusks and a thick layer of fat and grizzle and you probably don't want to take them on with anything smaller then a rifle in a decent caliber - no 22 centerfires.

Wow.  I've heard the stories about the wild boars in the South.  They're also a huge environmental problem as well as a safety problem.  But aren't they pretty good eatin'? 

We humans are not always the top of the food chain.  Even here in SD in the Black Hills, we have mountain lions.  Once in a very great while they'll attack a person.  Actually, rattle snakes are a far bigger problem though.

Other parts of the country, as you note, have bears and these crazy wild boars.  Still others have sharks off their coastal waters.  Our friends in India contend with tigers; our buddies in Africa deal with lions, our colleagues in the Great White North deal with polar bears.

I have seen a few people in the Black Hills carry a sidearm.  But they are far and few between.

My own guess is that armed CAP members would be more likely to shoot each other in a Barnie Fife moment or in an accident than any nasty critters or methheads intent on doing us harm.  I don't dismiss that there are some areas of the country that may be dangerous because of illegal immigration, drug running, drug manufacturing, or even wild animals.  But as another poster has aptly noted, applying ORM and some common sense, I think the current policy of no guns is best.  But these considerations should go into the analysis of whether the mission happens and what prophylactic measures we need to take to minimize risk.  I for one would not like to be eaten by a wild boar, unlikely as that is.

[davidsinn]

Living in Sinn:

Sounds like you live on the set of "Deliverance."     Rather than buying a gun or equipping your CAP squadron members with 9 mms, I'd move to a safer locale.  Or get your sheriff off his arse and tell him to go after these dirtbags.

Actually deliverance isn't too far from the truth. During WW2 we had whole towns move up here from Kentucky to work in the ordnance plant. We also have scum moving out from Chicago. Our crime rate doubles in the summer with people from IL visiting all the lakes around here.

Moving is not an option. Increased police is not an option because we are the poorest county in the state. The local economy is much worse here than in most areas so that's not helping.

Indiana has a stand your ground law and CCW vs Illinois' "run away" or "retreat" law, lack of CCW and an outright handgun ban in Chicago . Guess who's crime rate is lower?

[heliodoc]

Mr Sinn

The story is more clear now....

Many rural communities are suffering the same as your community, your issue is not unique

A problem CAP will surely NOT solve by arming cadets and senior members without training

Once again, CAP will not solve this problem with idea CAP is "gonna" rescue a community who is lacking TRUE law enforcement capability.

I am sure many feel your pain, but arming CAP Barney Fife's are not even going to come close in community protection...  NO WAY!

[davidsinn]

Mr Sinn

The story is more clear now....

Many rural communities are suffering the same as your community, your issue is not unique

A problem CAP will surely NOT solve by arming cadets and senior members without training

Once again, CAP will not solve this problem with idea CAP is "gonna" rescue a community who is lacking TRUE law enforcement capability.

I am sure many feel your pain, but arming CAP Barney Fife's are not even going to come close in community protection...  NO WAY!

Not one person here is suggesting CAP arming it's people. All we want is for the regs to allow us to exercise a legal right that we already have. No one is saying we should become LEOs. I don't think CAP can solve the problem around here. I just want the ability to use my right as a citizen to properly defend myself from threats when in uniform.

[Major Lord]

Anecdotal? The link between cigarettes smoking and lung cancer is anecdotal.

Anecdotal?

Well, we are drifting pretty far from the thread, but there is no direct evidence showing cigarettes cause lung cancer. The statistical evidence is of course overwhelming, and the chances of someone developing small cell lung cancer without being a smoker are astronomical. I am in no way arguing that cigarettes don't cause lung cancer, but I am stating that the proof is solely anecdotal and statistical. This applies to the firearms discussion and how CCW laws correlate to a reduction in crime. Just because we don't fully understand the mechanism does not mean that the correlation is accidental. You would not argue that we should smoke because there is no medical direct evidence that it causes cancer would you? That would be silly. The corollary in discussion about firearms laws is that permitting CCW leads to a dramatic improvement in the reduction of crime rates.

Again, guns in the hands of the CAP general membership is an awful idea. I don't trust too many of them with a drivers' license, let alone a firearm. As it stands, we have a choice, exercise our Constitutional right to keep and bear arms, or participate in CAP-Just not both simultaneously. In uniform and on-duty, we voluntarily waive a lot of options to exercise our rights and obligations  ( No protesting in uniform, criminally refusing to join the posse comitatus, etc)

Major Lord

[heliodoc]

Mr Sinn

I am sure in the current CAP ORM / legal / CYA

CAPR900-3 is NOT going to change and probably not "gonna" fly for CAP members "carryin" while in uniform

Realists can almost bet on that unless somewhere in the deep fortress of Maxwell there are some changes being made we don't know about...

But again, CAP members 'carryin" while in uniform.....reaaaalllllly doubtful ....but g'ahead!!

[Fubar]

My source on this you ask? Our local DEA agents in Sioux Falls, who arrest folks I represent on federal court appointments from time to time.

Who were all undoubtedly innocent of the charges 

[Major Lord]

My source on this you ask? Our local DEA agents in Sioux Falls, who arrest folks I represent on federal court appointments from time to time.

Who were all undoubtedly innocent of the charges 

Now thats unfair! Remember, its 99% of all lawyers that give the other 1% a bad name!

Major Lord

[Flying Pig]

My source on this you ask? Our local DEA agents in Sioux Falls, who arrest folks I represent on federal court appointments from time to time.

Who were all undoubtedly innocent of the charges 

Now thats unfair! Remember, its 99% of all lawyers that give the other 1% a bad name!

Major Lord

Look, illegal immigration has its good parts. It has eliminated the meth trade in SD!

[davedove]

My source on this you ask? Our local DEA agents in Sioux Falls, who arrest folks I represent on federal court appointments from time to time.

Who were all undoubtedly innocent of the charges 

Now thats unfair! Remember, its 99% of all lawyers that give the other 1% a bad name!

Major Lord

Look, illegal immigration has its good parts. It has eliminated the meth trade in SD!

He's not saying it has eliminated the trade.  He's saying it has eliminated local production and South Dakota now imports foreign made meth.