Force protection and armed CAP members

[RiverAux]

I checked with the person who told me about the Posse Comitatus clause, and he retold me that the current CAP policy is derived from that in order to prevent CAP being used as a police force, as we cannot do that under AF Assigned status.

And the restriction on cadets comes not from current CAP regulation, but outside lawyers who will sue. NHQ would have to adopt new policies to stop the lawyers.

He is wrong about PCA.  Weapons have nothing to do with it.  Just because you're carrying a weapon doesn't mean that you're going to be doing police work of some kind that would violate PCA. 

And no one suggested allowing cadets to be armed, though I suppose that 18-20 demographic might fall under some of the poll options if a state issues a concealed carry permit to someone in that age group. 

[Major Lord]

No. Maybe it's because I'm a First Responder (and in EMT-B school), and therefore hate the idea of civilians (and most LEOs that I've met for that matter) carrying guns.

First: It is illegal for CAP to carry weapons under the Posse Comitatus Act while on AF Assigned Missions.

Second: Arming our GTs will ban cadets participating in Emergency Services, and we all know that cadets make up the backbone of CAP GSAR.
idiot geardo cadet killing himself.

And I might get this off my chest, I am against CCW and Open-Carry.

Maybe you should drop the EMT-B class and take some college classes on law, history, government and a few others.  Just a suggestion.

Allow me to rephrase:

I live in an urban area. We have lots of shootings here. I feel that the CCW laws proposed in my neck of the woods are too broad, and would put more guns in places that need less guns.

Also, in my neck of the woods, Fire/Rescue and EMS are in a constant battle with the local PDs (The Sheriff gets along fine, possibly because EMS is run by the county here?)

I checked with the person who told me about the Posse Comitatus clause, and he retold me that the current CAP policy is derived from that in order to prevent CAP being used as a police force, as we cannot do that under AF Assigned status.

And the restriction on cadets comes not from current CAP regulation, but outside lawyers who will sue. NHQ would have to adopt new policies to stop the lawyers.

In addition, I know of quite a few geardo cadets, who while very good at ES, I would never let within 100 meters of a loaded weapon. I would be forced to kick all cadets off my GT (In my neck of the woods, schools are very cooperative with CAP ES).

While I can understand why some would want this in other parts of the country, the urban areas would make this impossible.

And I still stand that if a LEO wants to carry their weapon while on a SAR mission, they can wear their police uniform. Keep it simple SARtypes.

I don't know where your "neck of the woods" is, but they would have to be far more irresponsible, orcriminally inclined, then rest of the U.S. That currently  benefit from liberalized CCW laws ( Here is a good resource to get a picture of the trend: http://www.concealedcampus.org/pdf/ccw_gun_facts.pdf )

Everywhere that has gone to "Shall Issue" Statutes have seen dramatic decreases in violent crime. Florida, the trend setter, saw their initial homicide rate fall by about half when civilians could legally carry again.

This is not an argument for arming CAP, just a reaction to your position that CCW's will make things worse.

Major Lord

[RiverAux]

Here is a link to a story citing statistics about violence and threats of violence against EMTs and firefighters, which is apparently surprisingly high.  While I certainly don't think a similar survey of CAP members would find anything like those numbers, it does make you think a bit.
http://www.firefighternation.com/profiles/blogs/under-attack-the-fire-service

[Eclipse]

Everywhere that has gone to "Shall Issue" Statutes have seen dramatic decreases in violent crime. Florida, the trend setter, saw their initial homicide rate fall by about half when civilians could legally carry again.

I would like to see some numbers that showed when and where a CCW actually prevented a homicide.  Without that, its just anecdotal.

Violent crime is down in general in most areas of the US.

[lordmonar]

As for the safety of cadets from rampaging seniors having a mental breakdown, I'm sure every person who has ever murdered someone cared about what regulations prohibited them from carrying a gun.

I'm more worried about SM Wannabe who can't resist the urge to show off in front of the cadets.

[Eclipse]

As for the safety of cadets from rampaging seniors having a mental breakdown, I'm sure every person who has ever murdered someone cared about what regulations prohibited them from carrying a gun.

I'm more worried about SM Wannabe who can't resist the urge to show off in front of the cadets.

Yeah, plus 10 there...

[Major Lord]

Everywhere that has gone to "Shall Issue" Statutes have seen dramatic decreases in violent crime. Florida, the trend setter, saw their initial homicide rate fall by about half when civilians could legally carry again.

I would like to see some numbers that showed when and where a CCW actually prevented a homicide.  Without that, its just anecdotal.

Violent crime in is down in general in most areas of the US.

Anecdotal? The link between cigarettes smoking and lung cancer is anecdotal. The fact that we don't see the mechanism does not negate the clear correlation.

Yes, violent crime is down in general, falling in nearly straight line correlation with the 38 States that have legalized CCW. There are thousands of reports every year of citizens using firearms to successfully defend themselves against unlawful deadly force ( I can find the published data for you if you are interested) Many of these events actually did result in a homicide, with the bad guy being the one down and dead. Citizens are involved in far more justifiable shootings then Police across the Country. 38 States now have CCW shall-issue or no permit required statutes, whose authority covers the vast majority of the land mass of the continental United States. No one really knows how many bad guys may have chosen to demure from their evil ways when confronted by an armed citizen. Not all such events are reported.

On the other hand, crimes of all types are up or level and high in areas prohibiting or severely restricting firearms. Arizona has had a massive increase in crimes along the border, and has now legalized concealed carry for anyone who can legally posses a handgun. It should be a good experiment  to validate the efficacy of  CCW's in preventing crime. At the very least, there is very little recidivism among those felons who have suffered fatal gunshot wounds....

Again, I am certainly not arguing that CAP should be armed.

Major Lord

[lordmonar]

In 1995 the Justice Department estimated that there were 1.5 million Defensive Gun Uses annually.

[PA Guy]

Just a thought about CCWs.  Using possession of a CCW as a criteria for allowing CAP members to be armed is no standard at all.  The criteria for issuing a CCW varies so widely from state to state as to be meaningless. CA has very stringent criteria for issuing CCWs while AL will issue a CCW if you can fog a mirror for example.

I also find it ironic that some of the strongest proponents of being armed are the same people that want us to be more Air Force.  When was the last time you saw military personnel in uniform engaged in official duties carrying a privately owned weapon? What about everytime you go on a base? They usually take a very dim view of private weapons on bases and it doesn't matter what you think your "rights" are. You better declare it and then store it in their armory while on base.

Don't fix something that isn't broken.

[davidsinn]

When was the last time you saw military personnel in uniform engaged in official duties carrying a privately owned weapon? What about everytime you go on a base? They usually take a very dim view of private weapons on bases and it doesn't matter what you think your "rights" are. You better declare it and then store it in their armory while on base.

Don't fix something that isn't broken.

Ignoring the debate about our policies for a moment, the military's policy is most definitely broken. Just ask the personnel at Ft. Hood.

[heliodoc]

NOT ignoring our policies for a moment, why does CAP need to worry about force protection at all?

CAP members can choose  the missions they want to attend and are not "forced" to the border.

We in the wildland fire business call that the "Properly refusing risk." method.  A discussion ensues about proper method or no method at all and whether or not the individual(s) stay to play or go "back to camp."

Right now wildland firefighters are being subjected to the very thing you mentioned here......AND they are not armed while plinkin Pulaski axes, dragging hose, pump and roll tactics with engines.....etc etc etc

Why is CAP so special needing weapons and my compadres do not.......Oh wait a minute...THEY call LEO's from USFS, BLM, NPS, etc

CAP.........take a hint!!

[davidsinn]

NOT ignoring our policies for a moment, why does CAP need to worry about force protection at all?

CAP members can choose  the missions they want to attend and are not "forced" to the border.

We in the wildland fire business call that the "Properly refusing risk." method.  A discussion ensues about proper method or no method at all and whether or not the individual(s) stay to play or go "back to camp."

Right now wildland firefighters are being subjected to the very thing you mentioned here......AND they are not armed while plinkin Pulaski axes, dragging hose, pump and roll tactics with engines.....etc etc etc

Why is CAP so special needing weapons and my compadres do not.......Oh wait a minute...THEY call LEO's from USFS, BLM, NPS, etc

CAP.........take a hint!!

So we're supposed to have a cop with us every time we go out for an FTX? Yeah that's going to go over real well.

[tdepp]

Everywhere that has gone to "Shall Issue" Statutes have seen dramatic decreases in violent crime. Florida, the trend setter, saw their initial homicide rate fall by about half when civilians could legally carry again.

I would like to see some numbers that showed when and where a CCW actually prevented a homicide.  Without that, its just anecdotal.

Violent crime in is down in general in most areas of the US.

Anecdotal? The link between cigarettes smoking and lung cancer is anecdotal. The fact that we don't see the mechanism does not negate the clear correlation.

Yes, violent crime is down in general, falling in nearly straight line correlation with the 38 States that have legalized CCW. There are thousands of reports every year of citizens using firearms to successfully defend themselves against unlawful deadly force ( I can find the published data for you if you are interested) Many of these events actually did result in a homicide, with the bad guy being the one down and dead. Citizens are involved in far more justifiable shootings then Police across the Country. 38 States now have CCW shall-issue or no permit required statutes, whose authority covers the vast majority of the land mass of the continental United States. No one really knows how many bad guys may have chosen to demure from their evil ways when confronted by an armed citizen. Not all such events are reported.

On the other hand, crimes of all types are up or level and high in areas prohibiting or severely restricting firearms. Arizona has had a massive increase in crimes along the border, and has now legalized concealed carry for anyone who can legally posses a handgun. It should be a good experiment  to validate the efficacy of  CCW's in preventing crime. At the very least, there is very little recidivism among those felons who have suffered fatal gunshot wounds....

Again, I am certainly not arguing that CAP should be armed.

Major Lord

Oh my lord!

Call me a skeptic.  I'd like to see the studies that show the CCW have indeed reduced crime.  I'm guessing it is more a matter of demographics or other factors than people packing.  But I can be convinced.

And that cigarette smoking causes lung cancer is merely anecdotal?  Sounds like tobacco executives in the 1960s and 70s. 

[wuzafuzz]

Just a thought about CCWs.  Using possession of a CCW as a criteria for allowing CAP members to be armed is no standard at all.  The criteria for issuing a CCW varies so widely from state to state as to be meaningless. CA has very stringent criteria for issuing CCWs while AL will issue a CCW if you can fog a mirror for example.

The CCW standards for a CCW permit holder in California are not that stringent.  It's the willingness of sheriff's to issue CCW permits that makes them relatively rare.  It often boils down to personal opinion on the part of the sheriff or police chief since CA is a "may issue" state.

I also find it ironic that some of the strongest proponents of being armed are the same people that want us to be more Air Force.

Got any facts to back up that opinion?  Most opinions I've seen here are suggesting CAP essentially stay out of it, either allowing mere compliance with state and local laws, or keeping things the way they are now.   I don't recall anyone suggesting we create a force of heavily armed 12 year old cadets or turn CAP into aviating special forces.

A few things I have learned while reading this thread:

• Many of us don't trust our fellow CAP members.  They simply cannot be trusted near firearms.  Instead we let them pilot aircraft and work with cadets. 
• People participating in CAP activities have a force field that protects them from bad people.  It's magic!  That's very fortunate since we insist on dressing like SWAT team members and orange shirts might deprive us of our manhood.  (See thread on CAWG orange shirts.)
• Bad things always happen to SOMEONE ELSE ^TM and informed people interested in living are maniacal wannabe's and/or gun nuts.

For those who have not read the entire thread: I am NOT advocating that CAP members be armed because of CAP membership.  Our role in CAP does not expose us in general, to any greater risk than your average hiker or person walking down the street.  However, hikers and other average folks do sometimes wind up dead at the hands of others.  Refusing to recognize that fact ensures you remain at the mercy of any predator you may encounter.  The sad truth is many of those folks have no mercy. 

[wuzafuzz]

Call me a skeptic.  I'd like to see the studies that show the CCW have indeed reduced crime.

Here's one:   
http://www.kc3.com/pdf/lott.pdf

I'm sure there are others insisting the reverse is true.  As with many things, buyer beware.

[heliodoc]

Mr Sinn

"Yeah that will go over real well."  Offered what the real world does and you shoot it down.....AWWW  I am walking away from the keyboard with a load of tears.  I,  I , I  want to quit CAP now that my ideas was shot down....BS

Do not know your location or situation

BUT YOU DO have a choice of where to hold an FTX and it can be at some controlled locations

Take a hint from the operators who do this on a regular basis....MAY I STRONGLY suggest you visit your local SO / LE types and SEE if they would not mind doing a patrol around your FTX site

Some of my ideas aren't really that bad..as the professionals do it every day

CAP..........once again playing on a island all their own and not reaching to the community for some goodwill to LE just to see or request

[wuzafuzz]

Mr Sinn

"Yeah that will go over real well."  Offered what the real world does and you shoot it down.....AWWW  I am walking away from the keyboard with a load of tears.  I,  I , I  want to quit CAP now that my ideas was shot down....BS

Do not know your location or situation

BUT YOU DO have a choice of where to hold an FTX and it can be at some controlled locations

Take a hint from the operators who do this on a regular basis....MAY I STRONGLY suggest you visit your local SO / LE types and SEE if they would not mind doing a patrol around your FTX site

Some of my ideas aren't really that bad..as the professionals do it every day

CAP..........once again playing on a island all their own and not reaching to the community for some goodwill to LE just to see or request

Many cops are already busy with other things.  Even if a 24 hour preview by cops is possible prior to a SAREX, good luck on getting that to work for a real search that takes you into unexpected places.  By all means, try it if you want.

[heliodoc]

Merely a suggestion, folks, merely a suggestion

Sorry I can not all be up to CAP speed of trying to arm ourselves....Good luck with that!

[davidsinn]

Mr Sinn

"Yeah that will go over real well."  Offered what the real world does and you shoot it down.....AWWW  I am walking away from the keyboard with a load of tears.  I,  I , I  want to quit CAP now that my ideas was shot down....BS

Do not know your location or situation

BUT YOU DO have a choice of where to hold an FTX and it can be at some controlled locations

Take a hint from the operators who do this on a regular basis....MAY I STRONGLY suggest you visit your local SO / LE types and SEE if they would not mind doing a patrol around your FTX site

Some of my ideas aren't really that bad..as the professionals do it every day

CAP..........once again playing on a island all their own and not reaching to the community for some goodwill to LE just to see or request

My county has precisely one officer on duty over night. Average response time is upwards of 20 minutes. We have methheads running rampant. There is no guaranteed safe place. Even my own backyard is a potential danger area because of how far from the road we are and we have some woods surrounded by corn fields. Know what this is? I have these parked in my yard during the spring. They are visible from a major hiway. I don't go farther than 50 feet from my house at night during March and April because methheads love to steal NH3 and I always make sure the 12 Ga. is loaded and accessible just in case. A couple of months ago we had a shootout at the other end of the county. It was like the 20s all over again because the cops where out gunned full auto vs pump shotguns.

[JeffDG]

To play devils advocate for a second, the Boy Scouts don't have defined missions that put them in harms way.

What is CAP's defined mission that puts us in harms way?  You might make a case for CD missions, but they are air missions and operate from established airports.

I can see a case for the ground search teams out in the bush...a gun can be used to shoot at things other than other people, and there's plenty of wilderness out there with fun things like cougars, bears, and the like.