Force protection and armed CAP members

[heliodoc]

^^^

We can keep reminding CAPers about this, flyboy...

There's no stopping CAPers informing about how arming CAP won't hurt anything......whatever

If one is not doing this everyday (spell security, LE, military) CAP just ought to suck it up and ACCEPT that Civil AIR Patrol is merely a volunteer support function to aencies that request our services....LE functions and carrying weapons is not a primary driving mission.

CAPTalkers will argue this into the next millenium

[cap235629]

Hmmmm...

[smg id=157]

You wonder why we call the pilots cowboys..........

[Rotorhead]

Here in southern Arizona the possibility of walking up on a group of smugglers is very real. 

Does that happen a lot?

Has it ever happened?

This man was on his own property so this scenario is not far fetched at all:

Arizona Rancher found shot to death

Not what I asked.  I didn't ask if anyone had ever been shot by an illegal.

I want to know how often AZWG SAR teams encounter illegals and whether they'd ever been threatened by one with a firearm.

[Short Field]

I can also see us getting really popular at local airports as our members carry weapons inside the security areas.  [You know the airports, the ones that members were recently crying about having to get another ID/access badge to enter...]

[Desert Dawg]

Rotorhead, to my knowledge no one has been threatened by an illegal with a handgun.  Your run of the mill undocumented alien isn't the problem.  The problem is the drug runners who carry 50 lbs of marijuana on their back and are armed to the teeth.  Have we had some close calls, you bet we have.

I am not saying that arming anyone in CAP is the answer, but I think some thought needs to be put into some sort of protection for our people.

[Short Field]

I am not saying that arming anyone in CAP is the answer, but I think some thought needs to be put into some sort of protection for our people.

911

If you are on a mission, you should be in contact with mission base so you can do 911 without cell phone coverage.

Waving a gun at drug smugglers will get you shot faster than just turning around and leaving.  If you are not a threat, they are not going to beg trouble.

[davidsinn]

I am not saying that arming anyone in CAP is the answer, but I think some thought needs to be put into some sort of protection for our people.

911

If you are on a mission, you should be in contact with mission base so you can do 911 without cell phone coverage.

Waving a gun at drug smugglers will get you shot faster than just turning around and leaving.  If you are not a threat, they are not going to beg trouble.

911 is not protection. 911 just tells the police where to find the murder scene. You don't need to be a threat to get killed by these guys, you just have to be in the wrong place.

The only person responsible for my protection is me. Unfortunately NHQ has seen fit to castrate my ability to protect myself from bad dudes.

Why are people wanting an example of somebody dieing before they will think about a weapon? What about being proactive instead of reactive?

[Ned]

. Unfortunately NHQ has seen fit to castrate my ability to protect myself from bad dudes.

Gosh, we must really be out of the mainstream here.

Out of curiosity, would the Boy Scouts let you pack heat while hiking with the lads?

How about Campfire or the Royal Rangers?  Maintenance workers for the Forest Service?  Electric company line crews?  Surveying crews?  Commercial loggers? (The loggers on the Discovery Channel seem to survive without their .45s.)  State University research biologists? 

Sigh.

I'm sorry you got castrated and all, but CAP does have an aggressive ORM program designed to protect you from - among other things - "bad dudes."  If it is too risky for you to go unarmed into the woods, then don't go.

No one will think the worse of you.  There are lots of other organizations out there who only go into the woods heavily armed.  The FBI hasn't arrested all of the militia folks yet, I'm sure there are still some operating.

Ned Lee

[vmstan]

To play devils advocate for a second, the Boy Scouts don't have defined missions that put them in harms way.

[heliodoc]

^^^^^
Nor do they wear any sort of BDU's...

CAP could relegate the BDU to another uni POSSIBLY lowering the "military" or law enforcement looking presence

MAYBE the BDU gets bad dudes all spooled up forcing them to use weapons thinking the BDU wearin dudes are after them!!

[Short Field]

To play devils advocate for a second, the Boy Scouts don't have defined missions that put them in harms way.

What is CAP's defined mission that puts us in harms way?  You might make a case for CD missions, but they are air missions and operate from established airports.

[davedove]

MAYBE the BDU gets bad dudes all spooled up forcing them to use weapons thinking the BDU wearin dudes are after them!!

This seems to me to be the more likely scenario.  For the most part, animals don't particularly want to mess with a large group of people tromping through the woods.  The bad dudes, however, would be more likely to respond with deadly force. 

BUT, we need to balance the likelihood of this threat against the also likely possibility of a CAP member making a mistake and hurting someone by accident.  Little Johnny's parents aren't going to be very understanding when their boy is injured because someone "didn't know the safety was off."

Does the possibility exist that a ground team will stumble across some bad guys?  Of course it does.  But, what is the probablity of such an occurence?

Another thing people haven't mentioned either is the likelihood that the bad guys will easily get the drop on the ground team.  Ground teams aren't supposed to be quiet; they want to be heard.  If the bad guys want to confront the team, it will be surrounded and at gunpoint before anyone who might be carrying could react.

[heliodoc]

Maybe CAP could MOU USCBP to pronto a Predator B over the area for an OIF / OEF style meet -n- greet clearing operation errrrr meet -n- greet target acquisition so the real LE operators could make their "arrests."  Arrests sanitized for relocation, if you know what I mean

Clearin the area for the Little Johnny's of CAP to do swell work in the search and locate world

But then again, isn't that the reason why the PAID SAR agencies require 18 yrs and older, for the insurance sakes?

Just sayin.....

[vmstan]

To play devils advocate for a second, the Boy Scouts don't have defined missions that put them in harms way.

What is CAP's defined mission that puts us in harms way?  You might make a case for CD missions, but they are air missions and operate from established airports.

I think we've just gone though an entire thread of missions and events that have put CAP personnel in harms way.

[Pumbaa]

That's the great thing about CONCEALED carry.. no one knows you are carrying...

I would be rather judged by 12 (or 2B'd) than carried by 6...

[davidsinn]

That's the great thing about CONCEALED carry.. no one knows you are carrying...

I would be rather judged by 12 (or 2B'd) than carried by 6...

God created man, but Sam Colt made them equal.

I have stumbled across meth equipment driving down the road. Coincidentally this was half a mile from a BSA campground and eight miles from my home. The bad guys are out there. I'd like to be able to defend myself and those around me.

[lordmonar]

I have stumbled across meth equipment driving down the road. Coincidentally this was half a mile from a BSA campground and eight miles from my home. The bad guys are out there. I'd like to be able to defend myself and those around me.

Okay...

Now let's come up with a viable program that manages this.

What are the requirments?
Who can authorise armament?
Any limitations on number of weapons/type of weapons/ammo?
Any training requirments?

And then we have to do a sanity check with our customers and USAF to see how they feel.

I'm sure there are some LE organisation who will be worried about armed volunteers out roaming the woods during a lost hiker search.

If we open this can of worms.....we are going to have to make sure we can get the lid back on if we need to.

[Krapenhoeffer]

No. Maybe it's because I'm a First Responder (and in EMT-B school), and therefore hate the idea of civilians (and most LEOs that I've met for that matter) carrying guns.

First: It is illegal for CAP to carry weapons under the Posse Comitatus Act while on AF Assigned Missions.

Second: Arming our GTs will ban cadets participating in Emergency Services, and we all know that cadets make up the backbone of CAP GSAR.
idiot geardo cadet killing himself.

And I might get this off my chest, I am against CCW and Open-Carry.

Maybe you should drop the EMT-B class and take some college classes on law, history, government and a few others.  Just a suggestion.

Allow me to rephrase:

I live in an urban area. We have lots of shootings here. I feel that the CCW laws proposed in my neck of the woods are too broad, and would put more guns in places that need less guns.

Also, in my neck of the woods, Fire/Rescue and EMS are in a constant battle with the local PDs (The Sheriff gets along fine, possibly because EMS is run by the county here?)

I checked with the person who told me about the Posse Comitatus clause, and he retold me that the current CAP policy is derived from that in order to prevent CAP being used as a police force, as we cannot do that under AF Assigned status.

And the restriction on cadets comes not from current CAP regulation, but outside lawyers who will sue. NHQ would have to adopt new policies to stop the lawyers.

In addition, I know of quite a few geardo cadets, who while very good at ES, I would never let within 100 meters of a loaded weapon. I would be forced to kick all cadets off my GT (In my neck of the woods, schools are very cooperative with CAP ES).

While I can understand why some would want this in other parts of the country, the urban areas would make this impossible.

And I still stand that if a LEO wants to carry their weapon while on a SAR mission, they can wear their police uniform. Keep it simple SARtypes.

[Short Field]

In addition, I know of quite a few geardo cadets, who while very good at ES, I would never let within 100 meters of a loaded weapon.

Heck, I would trust the cadets more than half the senior members we have.  The wannabe factor would go out the roof.  I can see the recruiting slogans now:  Join CAP, wear BDUs, wear Officer Rank, get saluted, and carry as many guns as you can manage so you can put the bad guys in their place.

if a LEO wants to carry their weapon while on a SAR mission, they can wear their police uniform. Keep it simple SARtypes.

+1

[tsrup]

Okay...

Now let's come up with a viable program that manages this.


What are the requirments?

A state issued Concealed Carry Permit.   

Who can authorise armament?

Easy, the State's Attorney , the person who signs my CCW. 

Any limitations on number of weapons/type of weapons/ammo?

Not unless otherwise restricted by the state.

Any training requirments?

Not any different than the requirements for the State's Attorney's office.

And then we have to do a sanity check with our customers and USAF to see how they feel.

I'm sure there are some LE organisation who will be worried about armed volunteers out roaming the woods during a lost hiker search.

Not any more than regular armed civilians.

What I propose, and agree with, is not the outright arming of CAP members because we feel like there is a perceived threat of attack while we are out in the woods.  If you are that worried about meth heads in the area of your search, your search plan should include a deputy.  If your scenarios ever involve planning on running into an area where you would encounter criminal activity, then it is foolish to proceed without the cooperation of the sherif's  office.
What I propose is allowing those who are licensed, wether it be LE or civilian, to cary concealed and quietly.  This allows members to exercise rights they already have and prevents the "show of force" image that current regulations prohibit.   
A member abuses his rights to cary and starts waiving his handgun around?  Call up the sherif's office and I bet his/her CCW is revoked.   
Again, I am not promoting any more rights or exceptions that Joe Shmo every day civilian does not already have.

As I have mentioned before:  You shouldn't be able to tell if a responsible carrier is packing. 

As for the safety of cadets from rampaging seniors having a mental breakdown, I'm sure every person who has ever murdered someone cared about what regulations prohibited them from carrying a gun.