Force protection and armed CAP members

[tdepp]

And I want bomb bay doors, bombs, Sidewinder missiles, and 50 caliber machine guns on our 172s and 182s.  Never know when we might have to sink a rogue Nazi sub or participate in a dogfight while on a flooding photo mission. 

[Krapenhoeffer]

No. Maybe it's because I'm a First Responder (and in EMT-B school), and therefore hate the idea of civilians (and most LEOs that I've met for that matter) carrying guns.

First: It is illegal for CAP to carry weapons under the Posse Comitatus Act while on AF Assigned Missions.

Second: Arming our GTs will ban cadets participating in Emergency Services, and we all know that cadets make up the backbone of CAP GSAR.

Third: We don't need them!
3a: Our regulations forbid our GSAR teams from participating in ANY operation involving criminal activity.
3b: And for the "Bambi might attack" arguement:
3bi: Bambi is more afraid of you, and will most likely avoid you.
3bii: The only time when Bambi even posed a slight risk, we just took a Sheriff's Deputy (I do like the Sheriff's Department) with us.

No guns for CAP, except where currently allowed. Goes for off-duty LEOs as well. Besides, SAR is your jurisdiction anyway, why don't you just wear your police uniform?

Creating exceptions will just open up a whole new can of worms, and 9001 more CAPTalk topics, and will lead to some idiot geardo cadet killing himself.

And I might get this off my chest, I am against CCW and Open-Carry.

[tsrup]

First.

I am against the idea of Arming CAP.  It's not part of the mission and there is no need to open carry.

However, why can't a member exercise his/her CCW just because they're in a CAP uniform?


Hell if you're responsibly carrying then no one should know anyways... 

Again two very big distinctions, the Idea of arming CAP because of a perceived threat is much different than properly licensed members quietly exercising their rights.   

[tdepp]

Let's get to the IMPORTANT question: What uniform would you be allowed to wear if you could be strapped as a CAP member?  Just those wearing AF-style uniforms?  Are those in corporate uniforms trustworthy enough to be packin'? Or maybe we'd need a new Distinctive Gun Totin' Member BDU and or Dress Uniform to let our members and the public know that this is a CAP member who can spit lead. 

[tsrup]

Let's get to the IMPORTANT question: What uniform would you be allowed to wear if you could be strapped as a CAP member?  Just those wearing AF-style uniforms?  Are those in corporate uniforms trustworthy enough to be packin'? Or maybe we'd need a new Distinctive Gun Totin' Member BDU and or Dress Uniform to let our members and the public know that this is a CAP member who can spit lead. 

somehow this joke is starting to get old... 

[Eclipse]

First: It is illegal for CAP to carry weapons under the Posse Comitatus Act while on AF Assigned Missions.

Cite please.  PC has no comment on an armed person in CAP, and 900-3 makes exceptions with no filter of mission type.

Second: Arming our GTs will ban cadets participating in Emergency Services, and we all know that cadets make up the backbone of CAP GSAR.

900-3 already negates the first part, and I disagree with the second part.

Cadets may make up a large percentage of the members rated as GTM's, however for a variety of reasons they do not make up a large percentage of those who regularly respond to real missions, at least not in my parts.  I generally consider them a secondary or ancillary support for the adult-rated teams who can actually self and supervise.

I agree we don't need weapons in CAP, but your argument above is flawed.

[cap235629]

And to answer cap235629's question - because I am more likely to be hurt or killled because of my profession (see post about being recognized in public).  But, for you Bill, when we are somewhere in civvies and something comes up, I won't protect you from the evildoers.       That way you won't feel hypocritical.    LOL

Garrick I was playing devil's advocate but to be specific to YOUR point:

As you know I am a FORMER police officer. I have over 12 years of LE experience.  I too have run in to people I have put in jail, once even running into a person that was just released from a 7 1/2 year stint at the Hotel Grady while at Wal-Mart with my daughter.  Thankfully when he approached me he did not intend me harm.  However as I was no longer a cop and was unarmed at the time, things could have gotten messy real quick.  The reasons you are stating for the law enforcement carry law (which by the way is not recognized by many states, not that I agree) should by your definition of need also apply to me.  It does not however as I chose to leave law enforcement as a career before "retirement". 

That being said however, I will not let you touch any vehicle in which I am a passenger nor will I need you to protect me, I have a CHL and as the old cliche goes "better judged by 12......." 

[tsrup]

I generally consider them a secondary or ancillary support for the adult-rated teams who can actually self and supervise.

Slight threadjack, but why?  are their sqtr's different than ours?  It would be interesting to see what the differences are for "adult-rated" GTM badges and Cadet GTM badges.. 

[davidsinn]

I generally consider them a secondary or ancillary support for the adult-rated teams who can actually self and supervise.

Slight threadjack, but why?  are their sqtr's different than ours?  It would be interesting to see what the differences are for "adult-rated" GTM badges and Cadet GTM badges..

Simple logistics. Most of them can not get themselves to a base or deployment area. Getting them out of school is difficult to impossible depending on your states laws. They also can not speak for themselves as most are minors under parental care.

[High Speed Low Drag]

Bill, I was just poking fun at you.  I know your position but since you were playing Devil's advocate, I was playing right back.  No harm intended.

[lordmonar]

Add to that....some of our customers don't like the idea of minors working their missions.

It is back to the old Cadets on ES problem.

I however think it is a great idea to get as many as we can into what ever area we can.

[davidsinn]

Add to that....some of our customers don't like the idea of minors working their missions.

It is back to the old Cadets on ES problem.

I however think it is a great idea to get as many as we can into what ever area we can.

Oh I agree. I love getting them out on my flight line. They are always eager and energetic and most importantly they treat the aircraft better than some pilots I've observed.

[RRLE]

pearl handles

They're ivory. Only a pimp from a cheap New Orleans whorehouse would carry a pearl-handled pistol.

Gen Patton

[♠SARKID♠]

We've got just too many empty-heads and gung-hos to be carrying deadly weapons.  Its often been said that when we lose a privilege in CAP, its because one idiot ruined it for the rest of us.  Firearms is a situation where someone would ruin it real quick with an accidental discharge into somebody's vitals.  I still maintain my position on protection from nature's nasties, but that is limited to things like mace/pepper spray.  Would I love to pack heat in the woods?  You bet, in the form of a pepper ball gun (zero legality research done).

[davidsinn]

We've got just too many empty-heads and gung-hos to be carrying deadly weapons.  Its often been said that when we lose a privilege in CAP, its because one idiot ruined it for the rest of us.  Firearms is a situation where someone would ruin it real quick with an accidental discharge into somebody's vitals.  I still maintain my position on protection from nature's nasties, but that is limited to things like mace/pepper spray.  Would I love to pack heat in the woods?  You bet, in the form of a pepper ball gun (zero legality research done).

Not all dangerous game in the woods has claws.

I am opposed to open carry in a CAP uniform but am of the opinion that CCW should be allowed for people that are already legally able to carry. It's a proven fact that some whack jobs out in the world just want to kill "soldiers." Guess what, we look like them. That makes us a target whether we do anything to increase the danger or not. If it were allowed I would support a measure that would 2b anyone that pulls a weapon out in anything but a life threatening situation ie: you play with your piece, you're done.

[cap235629]

Bill, I was just poking fun at you.  I know your position but since you were playing Devil's advocate, I was playing right back.  No harm intended.

I know, you still can't touch my vehicle.....

[N Harmon]

First: It is illegal for CAP to carry weapons under the Posse Comitatus Act while on AF Assigned Missions.

Okay, I'm going to have to call BS on that one. While I agree there are a lot of good and valid reasons for CAP not to carry weapons, Posse Comitatus is not one of them, and does not make carrying weapons illegal.

And for the "Bambi might attack" arguement: Bambi is more afraid of you, and will most likely avoid you. The only time when Bambi even posed a slight risk, we just took a Sheriff's Deputy (I do like the Sheriff's Department) with us.

It's easy for us midwesterners to be apathetic about the dangers that certain wildlife can pose to people operating in the woods, since there is so little here that is really dangerous. But trampling around certain inner coastal areas of the pacific northwest long enough and you may find yourself face to face with a not so "afraid of you" brown bear.

Now, if having a deputy with every ground team is already standard procedure, then that is that. But I'd like to know if it really is the case.

[lordmonar]

I am opposed to open carry in a CAP uniform but am of the opinion that CCW should be allowed for people that are already legally able to carry. It's a proven fact that some whack jobs out in the world just want to kill "soldiers." Guess what, we look like them. That makes us a target whether we do anything to increase the danger or not. If it were allowed I would support a measure that would 2b anyone that pulls a weapon out in anything but a life threatening situation ie: you play with your piece, you're done.

I just don't want to deal with the liabity.

When you walk into my doors you belong to me.  I have to balance the unknown dangers with the known dangers and make a judgement call.  And it will be my buttocks on the line if some unstable senior member decides to go postal at the squadron meeting....or more likely some guy who should never have been given a driver's license let alone a CCP accidently shoots himself or one of my squadron members.

Don't get me wrong...got nothing against guns or CCPs.....I'm getting one too as soon as I get the cash....but during CAP time it goes into the glove box and remains there.

YMMV

[billford1]

I don't know if it's already been asked but have there been incidents where CAP Members have been fired on or otherwise threatened with deadly violence?

[tsrup]

I am opposed to open carry in a CAP uniform but am of the opinion that CCW should be allowed for people that are already legally able to carry. It's a proven fact that some whack jobs out in the world just want to kill "soldiers." Guess what, we look like them. That makes us a target whether we do anything to increase the danger or not. If it were allowed I would support a measure that would 2b anyone that pulls a weapon out in anything but a life threatening situation ie: you play with your piece, you're done.

I just don't want to deal with the liabity.

When you walk into my doors you belong to me.  I have to balance the unknown dangers with the known dangers and make a judgement call.  And it will be my buttocks on the line if some unstable senior member decides to go postal at the squadron meeting....or more likely some guy who should never have been given a driver's license let alone a CCP accidently shoots himself or one of my squadron members.

Don't get me wrong...got nothing against guns or CCPs.....I'm getting one too as soon as I get the cash....but during CAP time it goes into the glove box and remains there.

YMMV

I doubt that if someone goes postal that he/she will care what National has to say on the issue of firearms...
  What happens when the sane CCW carrier neutralizes the threat and saves a squadron of cadets despite the regs.. "2b or not 2b".