Force protection and armed CAP members

[RiverAux]

Back in 2007 we had a pretty spirited thread relating to ground team members carrying firearms for protection from bears and other unlikely dangers while on missions.  The general consensus seemed to be that this wasn't necessary and wasn't a good idea.

Since then, there has been a growing movement of folks who feel the need to openly pack a pistol on their hip at all times and there has been continued loosening of various state laws regarding concealed carrying. 

The issue of "force protection" for CAP members has come up here every now and again as well in that CAP meetings and events could potentially be a soft target for someone looking to strike at what they consider "the military".  If that is a real concern, then perhaps we should revisit the restrictions on carrying firearms by CAP members found in CAPR 900-3:

1. Firearms. Civil Air Patrol members will not carry, wear, or use firearms, including air guns (pellet or BB) while engaged in Civil Air Patrol activities. The carrying of firearms prohibition is subject to the following excep-tions:
a. A member may carry firearms on his/her person when required to do so by law provided he/she has a written statement of proof of such requirement signed by the Wing Commander.
b. Firearms may be carried in survival gear in CAP aircraft when required by law. When firearms are so authorized, they will not be removed from the survival gear unless an emergency situation exists.
c. Firearms may be used under strict supervision as authorized in CAPM 50-16.

Personally, I don't see this as a big threat and I don't see a need to change the regulations, but I thought given the trends in relation to firearms and the many new people that have joined CAPTalk since then, that the topic might be worth re-visiting. 

You can pick up to 6 options in the poll, so if a couple of the ideas seem worth considering go ahead and select as many as you want.

Also, let me know if you want to add some options.

[vmstan]

Considering most states don't allow for open carry by anyone except LEO, and even then only when badge is visible, I'm not sure CAP passing a reg saying they can would really be beneficial to anyone except for those living in those places.

[RiverAux]

Well, lets stipulate that any of these proposals would be subject to state and local regulation and might only be possible in certain states.

The question is would we want to make allowances for them where legal?

[Pumbaa]

Hell, I always kept my 45 in my flight bag.. why not on my hip?

Only problem with GT is there are a number of people in the field with you.  Hard to track whereabouts, you better know and hit your target lest someone gets hit downrange.

[Rotorhead]

The day I honest-to-God feel I need a weapon to protect myself for SAR is the day I stop doing it.

[Pumbaa]

The day I feel I need a spare tire is the day I stop driving.

Firearms are nothing more than another tool in the toolbox.

I've carried for nearly 30 years.  Saved my hide 2x.

[Stonewall]

I trust very few people with guns.  Of those who I do trust, most are not in CAP.

[♠SARKID♠]

I was never an advocate for the carry of firearms, its just not the right image for us.  I have, however, always felt a legitimate need for protective measures from the nasties of the wild [reference old thread of mine].

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

I've never been in law enforcement but have had a concealed carry permit for over 20 years. I've always thought it odd that I lose my 2nd amendment rights the moment I put on my CAP uniform.

[♠SARKID♠]

I'll add that being a hunter's safety instructor I know what level of knowledge Joe Shmoe has about firearms (little to none outside of Hollywood).  We all see the brand new members that immediately feel they need to have all the coolest tactical vests, radios, big knives, etc who wander the Tools of the Trade board.  Start letting members carry firearms and the first thing they're going to do is go down to the local gun store and get a Desert Eagle for their 24hr load while developing a bad case of pruritus digititis.

[FW]

I've never been in law enforcement but have had a concealed carry permit for over 20 years. I've always thought it odd that I lose my 2nd amendment rights the moment I put on my CAP uniform.

Um, you volunteered to obey the regs when you signed on the dotted line.....

[SM_Bennion]

I carry a gun for my job (Armored Car driver/messanger) with training and you are able to obtain the permit though the state that you live in i really dont see a problem with it IMO

[PHall]

I've never been in law enforcement but have had a concealed carry permit for over 20 years. I've always thought it odd that I lose my 2nd amendment rights the moment I put on my CAP uniform.

You also would lose your 2nd Admendment rights if you were on a military base.
The ONLY people allowed to run around on base with a loaded weapon are ON DUTY Police.

[Polecat]

Considering most states don't allow for open carry by anyone except LEO, and even then only when badge is visible, I'm not sure CAP passing a reg saying they can would really be beneficial to anyone except for those living in those places.

Fact check. http://www.opencarry.org/opencarry.html

[lordmonar]

Okay....let me ge this straight.

We are considering arming CAP because we may be a soft target for some terrorist group?

River.....are you serious?

[wuzafuzz]

Our CAP activities don't make us any more or less likely than anyone else to have a need for a firearm. Initially I thought I'd prefer CAP be neutral on the issue, allowing people to comply with local laws and base policies.  However open carry is a bad idea IMHO.  That would attract all kinds of attention for the wrong reasons.  It's not part of the CAP mission and would not be a productive contribution to our image.

I'm not anti-gun by any means; I've carried as a guard, as a cop, and as a CCW permit holder (even in Kalifornia!).  However, many people react with pant-wetting, drooling, deer in the headlights staring horror at the thought of firearms.  There is no reason to cause those same people to have a similar (unreasonable) perception of CAP members.

[Major Lord]

I think that having CAP carry weapons openly is an awful idea ( and may change our status according to the rules of land warfare) But for LEO's and Civilians with CCW permits, I don't see why not. My Sq meets on Travis AFB, so CCW or not, carrying the sidearm is a no-go.

I have a CCW for California, and a multistate (Utah and Florida) to cover pretty much all the other right to carry states, as well as an open-carry permit for California.

Arizona just passed a law that allows anyone to carry concealed. If they only had an Ocean.......

Major Lord

[CadetProgramGuy]

Weapons have no place in CAP on Ground Teams.

Weapons barely have a place in the Cadet Programs (as allowed by 52-16)

[Daniel]

this cadet's prospective:

Whats the point, lets look at the three missions

Aerospace Education - No point in weapons here, just model rocketry

Cadet Programs- We gonna pop a cap in the cadets? (Kidding, but seriously I guess having cadets on a firing range is okay but nowhere else really.)

Emergency Services-  we need guns to find people?

[Major Carrales]

Wow...we went from debating the heck out of the First Amendment, and now on to the second.   Maybe by Wednesday we can debate if CAP Officers can be placed in private homes, can we continue the practice of putting up Cadets for encampments. 

Just kidding...

I think the regulation is good as it is.  A general prohibition save for special circumstance.  I don't think it is a matter of restricting gun ownership, reather one of propriety.  As a rule we should not be in situations where a weapon is necessary, however, as a matter of reality, there my be times then it is a necessity. 

Remember, having a weapon means having the where-with-all to use it.  This requires CAP specific training as to what is desired use and what constitutes the situation.  Law Enforcement Officers have some training, but how would that apply to CAP and in the case of jurisdition?

Curious, what does the populace consider a situation that would warrant being armed?  And what would the the "terms of engagement?"  I can see a potential public relations nightmare if a CAP officer shot some person dead.  I recall a case of some Border Patrol agents who got in significant trouble for shooting an potential suspect.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,244193,00.html

What might this spell for CAP?